Kneeling on the neck?

[still learning]

Hello, From all the above comments....looks like kneeing the back of neck or just below is a "great" technique'!

Most of us have very deadly techniques that can be use.....

the reverse is UN-deadly techniques....like peeing on them?

yelling is a good UN-deadly techniques..unless the other guys has a gun and didn't like what you said?

Kneeing in praying is OK .....kneeing on his neck will help him pray too!

So we all can agree? .....kneeing is good to know!

Aloha, kneeing bread is long time practice...

 

[Bob Hubbard]

All good points, which is why I was only looking for clarification on the knee to neck part, and put the other stuff in the Study. (Pics linked in there too, different discussion). I wasn't intending this to be a discussion of the right/wrong/etc.

Now, the photo looks like the officer is kneeling on his neck to me, and my limited knowledge of LEO procedures indicates that such an action was outside standard practices for safety reasons.

 

[morph4me]

To me it looks as if the officer is kneeling across his shoulder blades.

 

[arnisador]

Looks reasonable for a one-on-one arrest situation, though I see where it could be dangerous.

 

[jks9199]

A discussion I'm following on another site had a photo of a LEO in riot gear handcuffing a prone individual, with a knee very clearly on the persons neck. Given my limited knowledge of arrest procedures, is this common or accepted? It seems dangerous to me.

Photo Link

(Note, not intending on a criticism of the act, etc, just looking for clarification on if it's accepted or discouraged, etc.)

He's not kneeling on the neck -- he's kneeling across the neck. Not quite the same thing. Note that the officer's toes are resting on the ground; he's in control of the downward force. More in a moment...

It's excessive force, hence it's wrong.

Based on what? What do you see in this photo that suggests that the force used is not reasonable and appropriate?

So, it's there in more a deterrent manner than a "crush his neck and cripple him" way. Here, we have a broad experience base to look at such things, while elsewhere it's not looked at from an informed perspective. Thanks!

It's control of the top of the spine and shoulders. You aren't putting direct pressure on the neck, but you are controlling their entire upper body while keeping your hands free.

Im of the opinion that this officer isnt kneeling on the offenders neck. Perhaps high up on the back, but far from dangerous. Ive knealt on people like that and you can shift your weight about so that there is hardly any pressure on the person at all, to enough force to pin the person down.

The issue here is the politics surrounding the RNC, not police use of force, dont be fooled.

Yep; I've used similar tactics, from "above" or in front of the person as shown, and from behind. Done properly, it's a very effective way to control someone and keep your hands free for other tasks, ranging from cuffing to calling for help, or even preparing to shoot others around you.

That is quite true, Angel. Also, as MJS said above, the very fact that the officer is in riot gear suggests that this is not some trivial offender being treated with excessive 'zeal'.

However, behind this specific instance is the very real danger of the build up of a 'screw the lot of them' institutional mentality. What I mean by this is the level of frustration within the LEO organisation building up to the point wherein anyone commiting a criminal act, however minor (or standing up for their rights where officers have made a mistake) is 'fair game'.

That is not a good state of affairs to look over the edge of the cliff at.

Of course, the flip side, is that we all expect the police to be telepathic Paladins who know that we are 'good', who never have a bad day and who never screw up. That's just unrealistic and is why, whenever I've had contact with the police (the whole three times ), I have been as open, accomodating and polite as I could be.

As a colleague of mine notes, "Bad things happen to bad people." This isn't an arrest technique for someone who's compliant and cooperative. They've already proven that they at least have the potential to be a problem child...

Remember that the test of police use of force is reasonableness and appropriateness. Excessive force is any force beyond what is reasonable or appropriate to the resistance to be overcome -- not force that "doesn't look pretty" or force that "I don't like."

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Ok, I cropped in a bit, and brightened the shot.

 

[KenpoTex]

based on the positioning, it looks as if most of the officer's weight would be on the shoulder/back area...I don't see any problems.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I think most people that have been through defensive tactics and hand cuffing classes will tell you that the knee in this position goes on or across the shoulder blades. In this picture that appears to be exactly what the officer is doing. Not fun or pleasant if you are the guy or girl on the bottom but definitely a good way to control a resisting individual. I cannot tell you how many times I have either used this technique in the past or watched someone use it. It is simply effective.

 

[shesulsa]

Yes, it appears the majority of any pressure being applied is on the opposite shoulder. This involves some contact with the neck - usually very light. I think we'd see much more ... ah ... smushing ... of the subject's face than we do in the photograph if much pressure was being applied.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

It's a head control, using the shin to apply a pinning pressure to the structure of the neck, by pinning the jaw.

Imagine someone laying face up. Turn their head to the side, and looking upwards just a bit, so there is some pressure in their neck muscles. Now, imagine two seperate choices: Lay your shin across their windpipe, or (and here's the tricky part) lay it so that is goes from their chest, across their neck, and across their jaw (remember their face is turned sideways a bit). Kinda like cross-facing someone, but with the use of the long bone of the shin as the lever, the pressure across the chest, throat, jaw prevents them from turning their head. Control the head, and you control the body.

In the pic in question, the cop is doing the exact same thing, but with the guy face down....the ground is providing the pressure usually provided by the shin, and the shin is providing the pressure usually provided by the ground.

 

[kyosa]

a simple rule-where the head goes the body follows. This is a common technique taught for hand cuffing. I always tell them to turn their face away from me because it takes pressure away from their upper body and head. The idea isn't to inflict pain or injury but to gain control of the person. The one rule of Law Enforcement officers-control and cuff. Why does it take 4 officers to arrest someone who is out of control? We could break their bones and beat them down with one or 2 officers, but it takes 2-4 officers to control an unruly person and get them cuffed without injuring them.

 

[Geeba12]

Kneel on the back of the neck? Absolutely! I did it hundreds of times in my career with zero permanent injuries. With minimal training, officers learn how to regulate their force the same way pain compliance is used against any other joints. This is a great equalizer when the suspect out weighs the officer. Proper use of the whole body, hands, feet, voice etc. is the focus. The goal is to apply temporary restraints (cuffs) as quickly and efficiently as possible with as reduced chance of injury to the officer possible.
SJG

 

[KP.]

Now if the technique is working for various departments, all good. But seems all it would take is one guy to slip on wet pavement while kneeling, or have a leg muscle cramp causing all his weight to drop, and you've got a catastrophe. Or maybe I'm just getting old and sceery... :idunno:

Totally unpopular view, but my experience around here is that far too many LEO's really don't care if they hurt someone. I've heard far to many sit around laughing about how some guy's face got bloodied on the pavement and wasn't that just amusing . . .

 

[LawDog]

KP,
you are off on your statement that LEO's do not care if they hurt someone or not. They under go extensive training on controlling someone so as not to hurt them. In most states LEO's must fill out a "level of force" form everytime they have a confrontation. If they falsify the form they are usually terminated.
"Most suspects get hurt when they physically resist".
As for listening to LEO's on forums laughing about hurting someone, check to see if they really a full time active LEO first then check to see if they are a b.s. artist.
As for kneeling on the neck, only if the LEO has practiced the art of controlling one's balance on the kneeling leg, many don't and they place their entire weight onto the suspects neck.
:supcool:

 

[Drac]

Totally unpopular view, but my experience around here is that far too many LEO's really don't care if they hurt someone. I've heard far to many sit around laughing about how some guy's face got bloodied on the pavement and wasn't that just amusing . . .

What a load of crap...

 

[Drac]

As for listening to LEO's on forums laughing about hurting someone, check to see if they really a full time active LEO first then check to see if they are a b.s. artist.:supcool:

Yes..As with the MA there are a lot of wanna-bes lurking around..

 

[jks9199]

Totally unpopular view, but my experience around here is that far too many LEO's really don't care if they hurt someone. I've heard far to many sit around laughing about how some guy's face got bloodied on the pavement and wasn't that just amusing . . .

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume you're not as clueless as you're coming across with this post.

There a couple of possibilities here. One is that it's just BS artists spinning crap stories. (Google "shrine of the mall ninja" for a hilarious example.) Another is that stories have grown in the telling, as war stories tend to do. Yeah -- war stories do sometimes glorify the violence... It's kind of a "guy thing" though it's not at all limited to guys. And there's a gallows humor aspect... plus just plain relief at living through someone trying to fight you.

Many martial artists enjoy fighting -- but that doesn't mean they enjoy hurting someone. It's the same with cops...

 

[Drac]

Many martial artists enjoy fighting -- but that doesn't mean they enjoy hurting someone. It's the same with cops...

Yes, well said...We (LEO's) will talk and joke among other LEO's about some suspect that tried to fight us and lost..I have never heard another officer say that they enjoyed hurting someone...

 

[Rich Parsons]

A discussion I'm following on another site had a photo of a LEO in riot gear handcuffing a prone individual, with a knee very clearly on the persons neck. Given my limited knowledge of arrest procedures, is this common or accepted? It seems dangerous to me.

Photo Link

(Note, not intending on a criticism of the act, etc, just looking for clarification on if it's accepted or discouraged, etc.)

Bob, not a police officer. I have not consulted a police officer or DA on this. Here is what I saw back in the day.


If you were a good bad guy and turned around you got the hand cuffs put on you and they walked you calmly to the vehicle and put you in and you even got a watch your head.

If you were a bad bad guy and resisted and kicked or hit the officer, they would make sure you could not move while they cuffed you.

If you were a really bad bad guy and tried to kick or bite the officer after the cuffs were on, you might bump your head on the way into the vehicle or you might get dropped as they were carrying you and sliding you into the back of the car.

Is it standard procedure? I do not know.

Does it depend upon what happend before the picture was taken? I would say definitely yes.

 

[Drac]

Totally unpopular view, but my experience around here is that far too many LEO's really don't care if they hurt someone.

Any and all injuries sustained by the arrested parties could be avoided if they would comply with our simple request of "Sir/Mam, STOP resisting.."