Kicks Kicks and more Kicks

[foot2face]

I did not intend for my previous post to Touch Of Death to come off as snippy. I really wanted to discuss the experience that led him to form that opinion. If carried out civilly, such a conversation can lead to great insight as to why someone would come to that conclusion.

I think what all of this kind of argument about is really a difference of opinion in the assessment of inherent risk.
…This isn't controversial, surely? So the argument really comes down to this: is is possible to train kicking techs so that the pros above can be exploited reliably enough to outweigh the cons, and is that possibility accessible enough for the normal trainee? And most important, is the time devoted to such training by the normal trainee better spent than the same amount of time spent on other techs which didn't compromise stability to the same degree (but possibly also lacked the advantages of the high kicks listed above under PRO)?

This is not controversial at all, these are very reasonable arguments. The type that would allow for a meaningful discussion and debate.
It’s just that I’m taken back when someone makes a stark declaration dismissing a particular method or techniques. I don’t understand how someone can make such broad generalizations and speak in definitive terms based solely on their own limited experience. It’s one thing to doubt and offer valid explanations as to why, but to just outright discount something because you (generally speaking, not specifically you) don’t do it, seems intellectually lazy to me.

But I'll say this: I think it's a mistake to dismiss people's opinions on the basis of their presumed lack of competence in kicking.

It’s not that I want to dismiss people’s opinion. The point I was trying to make was that there can be just as many explanations as to why someone might unfairly criticize high kicking as ones that validated such criticism.

My own inclination is to be guided by people who fight bloody, brutal and no-rules for a living—and LEOs, personal protection pros, and especially club security people are probably the best guides to that kind of information.

This is one of those instances were we are on the same page but in opposite columns. I was a bouncer for several year and had to rely on my MA training quite a bit. I had great success with high kicks. My master was a H2H instructor while in the Korean military during the early 60s. He taught the type of TKD that went to Vietnam, and he taught me to kick to the head. Many of the senior BBs at my school were former military and LEOs. In fact the man who tied the BB around my waist and congratulated me with a prideful embrace the day I promoted, was a former Marine and long time member of the NYPD, and he taught me to kick to the head.

In the end, I just don't think the question can be given a quantitatively definitive answer.

Exactly!

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Short answer: Never do a high kick, except sometimes.

 

[newGuy12]

Short answer: Never do a high kick, except sometimes.

LOL!

Avoid the physical confrontation, unless you have to engage in it. Then, don't think, DO! Hahaha! What ever one practices, that has to work! At least good enough to get a break to get away!

I knew a VERY HIGHLY ranked American Kenpo Teacher who told me that he did not like the straight side kick (the one that goes out and you HOLD IT out, not snap it back).

He works in law enforcement, and one time he did that kick. He did not THINK about doing that kick, it just happened. And, it worked (it was low -- to the abdomen). Haha -- he told me that he never thinks badly about that kick now.

 

[Decker]

Just curious, do y'all train kicks more for SD purposes than sparring purposes? I.e. Kicks for limb destruction/organ damage etc. rather than probably loud but relatively harmless "point-scoring" kicks.

I've heard of the "snap vs push-through" debate concerning kicks like the roundhouse. I was wondering, which version would you prefer for SD purposes, and would you ever use that in a sparring match with padding? And for push-through kicks, would you ever consider pushing through to the extent Muay Thai seems to advocate?

I hope I don't offend anyone. Thanks.

 

[exile]

Just curious, do y'all train kicks more for SD purposes than sparring purposes? I.e. Kicks for limb destruction/organ damage etc. rather than probably loud but relatively harmless "point-scoring" kicks.

I've heard of the "snap vs push-through" debate concerning kicks like the roundhouse. I was wondering, which version would you prefer for SD purposes, and would you ever use that in a sparring match with padding? And for push-through kicks, would you ever consider pushing through to the extent Muay Thai seems to advocate?

I hope I don't offend anyone. Thanks.

Decker, don't worry about offending anyone by asking a serious question—it won't happen!

A lot of the posters on this thread are interested in kicks primarily for practical SD use; I prefer to kick probably a bit lower than a number of them, and my own take on the roundhouse is that it's a terrific kick to use at very close quarters against the side of an assailant's knee, or to the lower ribcage if you have a bit more room (but inherently trickier to land the higher you go). But the roundhouse is a relatively complex kick to use if you want to get maximum power into the impact, because of that business with the two-part chamber: bring the knee up, but then rotate it downward so your bent kicking leg is parallel to the ground. The real power of the roundhouse comes from the open-hip technique that TKD has done so much to bring to the fore. Even with a snapping motion, you can still get plenty of force into the kick if it's driven from the hip rotation. The damage you can do to an assailant who is probably thinking more about what your hands are doing than your legs can be considerable, but you need to bring in power from the hip to make it effective. To me, that's the crucial element for effective SD use.

I've seen the 'classic' Shotokan version of the roundhouse, which doesn't use that open hip approach—or at least didn't; I get the impression that some styles of karate at least have incorporated that hip-powered kicks of TKD to some extent.

 

[Decker]

Thanks Exile, I appreciate it!

Could you explain/elaborate on the "open hip technique" you mentioned? From your post, I understand (possibly wrongly) that it's a different technique altogether from the two-part chamber thing, which all along I've been thinking, and practising, as the correct way.
All I can think of that matches "open hip" are either the bandal-chagi, or the rapid left-right half-roundhouses often thrown in WTF style sparring, which don't seem to have much power.

Perhaps I do misunderstand?

Thanks.

 

[kaizasosei]

i think that it is best to be really flexible and be able to use ones kicks as a boxer uses his hands. even if someone is a great kicker-like many tkd practitioners.-it doesnt mean they can connect a kick. connecting a kick classifies as a strike. striking is an art. it takes concentrated training and experience to be able to be able to strike hard, fast and with deadly precision.
even if someone can punch like a boxer or karate puncher, it doesnt mean that they can necessarily use that punch to its full potential without being good at striking. striking is an important part of many martial arts.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Short answer: Never do a high kick, except sometimes.

Actually that is rather true, as well as quite funny.


I recently have had my mind changed on high kicks, but then I also had the thought as to what what constitutes a kick being called a high kick.

I am a bit over 6 foot tall so what his considered a high kick for some may not be considered a high kick for me.

In Sanda there are kicks, generally not awfully high, at least at my low level of skill. But there is one that, I guess, could be considered high and it has a specific use and it would be rather devastating to whomever you kick and it is a full power fast kick (toes up at impact) to the jaw of the person you happen to be unloading on. But in order for it to work you need to train it a lot. As I have said in another post, my Sifu wants me to train this kick by doing it 300 times per leg, per day. He is incredibly fast with this kick as well as very powerful and it is that speed and power that is necessary, in my opinion, to actually be able to use it in an SD situation.

I am still of the mind set that the knee is a much better target for a kick (and Sanda has those too) but I can see, in some situations, that a high kick can be a very important weapon in the arsenal.

However I am still not convinced that jump kicks are a good thing but that is another topic

 

[exile]

Thanks Exile, I appreciate it!

Could you explain/elaborate on the "open hip technique" you mentioned? From your post, I understand (possibly wrongly) that it's a different technique altogether from the two-part chamber thing, which all along I've been thinking, and practising, as the correct way.
All I can think of that matches "open hip" are either the bandal-chagi, or the rapid left-right half-roundhouses often thrown in WTF style sparring, which don't seem to have much power.

Perhaps I do misunderstand?

Thanks.

No, the open hip method (at least as I've always understood the term) is the opposite: in a classic open-hip TKD roundhouse, the power comes from two components: the very strong rotation of the pelvis in the direction of the target, and the snapping (or maybe thrusting, in some situations) movement of the leg. It's like a two stage rocket: the major thrust comes at the first stage, and the second stage actually delivers the payload. In the old-style classic karate kick, hip involvement is minimal, so the kicking leg in effect crosses past the hipbone; you're not looking to use that kick as a primary destructive weapon, but as part of a sequence which will generally end with a hand tech. That can happen also with a TKD sequence, but you're aiming to do a lot more damange—serious limb destruction—with that roundhouse, and the hip rotation in effect leads the chambered lower leg, which uncoils and strike as sort of the culmination of the hip rotation. You have to train balance a lot more persistently for this approach to the kick, but it's definitely worth it.

What I have found very helpful and practical is just practicing the two-step chamber and rotation. If you have a confined space, you can still do that, and it's a great way to develop stronger hip flexors (so you can maintain that bent-knee chamber in a high position if you want) and balance skills on the pivoting leg. One you're solid on the standing leg, the quick hard snap at the end isn't going to put much extra strain on your stability-ability.

 

[Kacey]

Just curious, do y'all train kicks more for SD purposes than sparring purposes? I.e. Kicks for limb destruction/organ damage etc. rather than probably loud but relatively harmless "point-scoring" kicks.

I've heard of the "snap vs push-through" debate concerning kicks like the roundhouse. I was wondering, which version would you prefer for SD purposes, and would you ever use that in a sparring match with padding? And for push-through kicks, would you ever consider pushing through to the extent Muay Thai seems to advocate?

I hope I don't offend anyone. Thanks.

It depends on what I'm trying to do with the kick. If I'm trying to get someone off me, I'll use more of a pushing-type kick (a shove, rather than a snap); if I want to break the limb, then I'll use a snap kick. Both have self-defense applications - for example, if I'm being accosted (rather than attacked) by a drunken guy at a party, I'll use more of a pushing motion, whereas if I'm being assaulted I'll use a snap kick, with as much force as I can get into it.

 

[YoungMan]

Basic kicking and forms kicking are designed for self defense and to cause pain and injury. Free fighting kicking is designed to score points and kill balance. The instructor needs to differentiate between the two so that the student knows they are not the same.
I prefer traditional free fighting, where it was established that the kick that knocked you back 10 feet could just as easily have broken your ribs. The roundhouse that touched your face could have knocked you out or broken your cheekbone.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I did not intend for my previous post to Touch Of Death to come off as snippy. I really wanted to discuss the experience that led him to form that opinion. If carried out civilly, such a conversation can lead to great insight as to why someone would come to that conclusion.

This is not controversial at all, these are very reasonable arguments. The type that would allow for a meaningful discussion and debate.
It’s just that I’m taken back when someone makes a stark declaration dismissing a particular method or techniques. I don’t understand how someone can make such broad generalizations and speak in definitive terms based solely on their own limited experience. It’s one thing to doubt and offer valid explanations as to why, but to just outright discount something because you (generally speaking, not specifically you) don’t do it, seems intellectually lazy to me.

It’s not that I want to dismiss people’s opinion. The point I was trying to make was that there can be just as many explanations as to why someone might unfairly criticize high kicking as ones that validated such criticism.

This is one of those instances were we are on the same page but in opposite columns. I was a bouncer for several year and had to rely on my MA training quite a bit. I had great success with high kicks. My master was a H2H instructor while in the Korean military during the early 60s. He taught the type of TKD that went to Vietnam, and he taught me to kick to the head. Many of the senior BBs at my school were former military and LEOs. In fact the man who tied the BB around my waist and congratulated me with a prideful embrace the day I promoted, was a former Marine and long time member of the NYPD, and he taught me to kick to the head.

Exactly!

If any one can pull off a pull drag roundhouse kick to the head it is me, but the dangers are so glaring that it makes it impractical. You cannot dictate the surfaces you may be fighting on, there is always at least one more opponent than you bargained for, There is a chance you may miss or glance, which puts you too long trying to recover. I will grant you head kicks if you are holding on to something... why not. LOL
Sean

 

[YoungMan]

One thing we always emphasized in Tae Kwon Do, whether it was kicking or punching, was that you got one chance to do something. If you kicked, and that kick didn't work, you would be in a world of trouble. Not only would he be madder, but he would also know you practiced.
My point: High kicks can and do work outside, but you only get one chance. Make that chance work.

 

[Touch Of Death]

One thing we always emphasized in Tae Kwon Do, whether it was kicking or punching, was that you got one chance to do something. If you kicked, and that kick didn't work, you would be in a world of trouble. Not only would he be madder, but he would also know you practiced.
My point: High kicks can and do work outside, but you only get one chance. Make that chance work.

Gambling... I like it.
Sean