Kicking and Hip Injuries

[TigerWoman]

Thanks Dr. Dave, I will print that out for my fellow TKD'ers. I guess I should do Yoga instead now. I can't jump and I can't kick high which is most of TKD or most of the fun. Or is Yoga bad too? TW

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Thanks Dr. Dave, I will print that out for my fellow TKD'ers. I guess I should do Yoga instead now. I can't jump and I can't kick high which is most of TKD or most of the fun. Or is Yoga bad too? TW

Yoga, in the traditional sense, is excellent. Have you ever seen a yogi with a bad back? You don't have to quit TKD, just change your focus. Don't try to keep up with the uber-athletes who are wrecking their hips. Train hard, just be the woman with the reputation for a roundhouse to the body that will cut you in half, but she never kicks to the head (unless the opponent is short, and then she hads a wicked front snap kick she uses like a jab). Can you imagine the momentum behind a jump-spin back kick to the side of the knee?

Regards,

D.

 

[Simon Curran]

Thanks for the post Dr Dave, and with your permission I would like to print it out and take with me to training in order to justify (read Excuse) my inability to kick higher than my opponents nuts are...

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Thanks for the post Dr Dave, and with your permission I would like to print it out and take with me to training in order to justify (read Excuse) my inability to kick higher than my opponents nuts are...

Please. Take it. And may you never have to kick higher than your opponents nuts.

 

[Simon Curran]

Thanks again, printing it just now:asian:

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

See, you're going to have people thinking I'm crazy again. Anyway, I believe you can still kick, I just won't let you kick incorrectly. That's why we do all that indexing.

Once again someone asks "how," as if you can really teach someone "how" on the internet, or video, or in a book, or ....

See you Saturday. Be prepared to spend some time learning and applying Index Set #1.

Freakin' awesome. Looking forward to it.

 

[Kenpobuff]

Thank you Dr. Dave for the most informative post I've read yet. I will tell my gymnast daughter to lower her kicks, just because she can doesn't mean she should. As for me I don't go above the belt very often, I've been accused of doing a lot of "butt kickin" during sparring...literally.

Thanks again,
Steve

 

[Kenpomachine]

Thank you for taking the time to type that post Dr. Dave. Quite informative and to the point (or is it joint?)

I tried to gave you some rep points, but it seems I have to spread some before

Yours humbly :asian:
Lucía

 

[Ceicei]

I've kept my mouth shut, but you asked for it...
<snip>
Dr. Dave

I'm glad I did ask and that you didn't keep your mouth (fingers) shut. That's an excellent post you made! With your permission, I would like to print it out and keep it for reference. Thank you again!

- Ceicei

 

[Kenpo Mama]

Great post Dr. Dave! Very imformative. I knew i was keeping my kicks low for a reason; even though i'm a yoga teacher and have a lot of hip flexibility, I know i always "feel" better keeping the roundhouse and side kicks lower. This post is one for the training journal.

Thanks,

Donna :ultracool

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Don't get me wrong, all y'all. While I'm enjoying the accolades, I can't help but notice..."How" to kick without causing harm has still not been addressed. All I've really done is to suggest what you might want NOT to do, and let you know why. It's one thing to say, "high kicking may be bad for your hips, IMHO", and another to provide evidence supporting the conclusion, based on medical sciences. Which is what I did, with pictures. Looking back over similar threads, Doc's been preachin the bad effects of bad habits for quite a spell. He just didn't import pictures.

Over the years, I have learned literally over a dozen ways to chamber a side kick prior to delivery, including not chambering...from the floor, to the target (no telegraphing allowed). Yet there are very specific positions that are good for the hip, and prime the muscles for stability during delivery. By default, that means the other positions are not good mechanically, and not only damage your body-parts, but rob your body of the potential strength that results from anatomical alignment. We should try to turn this discussion to what that "how" really looks like, feels like, and is done.

How many in kenpo are taught what that alignment is, how it works and why, and how to tell if you're on it or not?

Regards,

D.

 

[distalero]

I know I wasn't taught anything specific along these lines. For me it was in two general stages. I was shown the "form" of the kick by several seniors, and got a "Good" in response at some point, and then I was told by one senior to then start kicking the heavy bag slowly and lightly, trying to keep that form, for as many times as it took to find what felt best with a little more speed and power; a "groove", I was told, that I would find, and that started from chambering or from the floor to contact (contact could be either snapping or thrusting). Definitely not 'formal' in any sense. And nothing higher than my own groin.

 

[Ceicei]

We should try to turn this discussion to what that "how" really looks like, feels like, and is done.

How many in kenpo are taught what that alignment is, how it works and why, and how to tell if you're on it or not?

Regards,

D.

Are there people who actually know HOW to kick properly? Basically, what I got from the lengthy post you made that the most safe and least damaging good kick is a front kick, and that kick should be executed no higher than the groin area. By implication, does this mean that most of the other types of kicks are unsound?

- Ceicei

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Are there people who actually know HOW to kick properly? Basically, what I got from the lengthy post you made that the most safe and least damaging good kick is a front kick, and that kick should be executed no higher than the groin area. By implication, does this mean that most of the other types of kicks are unsound?

- Ceicei

Depends on the prep. Indexing is a good set of pre-delivery positions that recruit necessary synergists, and set osseous structures in optimal alignment for strength & stability throughout the execution.

More later; gotta work.

D.

 

[Makalakumu]

Depends on the prep. Indexing is a good set of pre-delivery positions that recruit necessary synergists, and set osseous structures in optimal alignment for strength & stability throughout the execution.

More later; gotta work.

D.

Dr. Dave

I practice Tang Soo Do. My art uses some kicking and I think that we have a pretty good set of basics that can minimize some of the risk. I linked this thread to the TSD forum for discussion. Thanks for taking the time to put together your comments.

Thanks all of you for your comments.

upnorthkyosa

 

[Satelite]

Hi guys, I am just wondering if Bill Wallace had his replacement on one hip or both. Since he kicks mainly with one leg. I think he had a knee injury many years ago, and thus used only one leg. Also I am looking at three stretching and kicking methods. Elasticsteel stretchingscientifically and combat conditioning. I am wondering if any of those three guys had any surgeries. Does any one know. Paul Zaichik seem pretty young, but Tom KUrtz and Mat Furey may have had their problems.

 

[searcher]

Are there people who actually know HOW to kick properly? Basically, what I got from the lengthy post you made that the most safe and least damaging good kick is a front kick, and that kick should be executed no higher than the groin area. By implication, does this mean that most of the other types of kicks are unsound?

- Ceicei

It is funny that you should bring this up on the "how-to kick properly" aspect. In his book Thmoas Kurz addresses hip injuries and other problems that can occur without proper training. With the correct technique there should not be any problems with high kicking. Having trained in the Okinawan systems for years and in EPAK for a short time I can honestly say that I had not been properly trained on my kicking technique. Thanks to my wife, Mr. Kurz' book, and taking up TKD I have refined my technique and now can kick over head high with no problems.

So many time I have seen poor technique my martial artists that have not been properly shown how to kick(not just in EPAK and the Okinawan styles). I feel that if I had not taken a step back and changed my technique I would be headed for a hip repalacement in the future.

Most of the poor form in kicks has to do with hip alignment. For example, trying to throw a roundhouse to the head without turning the hips or the plant leg. They role their kicking leg over and keep their toes and hips pointed at their target. Now I have tried going back to this kicking style and it hurts very bad in the hips.

What I am trying to get at is that with proper technique and the right types of stretching and resistance training high kicks don't have to lead to hip replacement or other serious injuries. Just my $0.02 worth.

 

[Martialscientist]

Thanks for the responses. It seems to me that the better kickers are develping more than their share of problems. If that is really true it would be good to know if certain kicks cause worsening injury. I had always felt (without good reason) that stretching could help prevent hip injuries but Bill Wallace was one of the more limber people in the world and he blew his hips. In fact I now hypothesize that the stretching and looseness required to kick high well may actually lead to worsened joint trauma and increase your rick of injury. (I have no proof of this either. But, Osteoarthritis if the knees has demonstrable improvement and decreased progression if increas the strength of the opposing muscle groups and "tighten" the joint.)

This line of reasoning makes me wonder if we should actively discourage high kicking.

Jeff

Jeff, I am just wondering, when you said that Bill is one of the more limber people in the world, what do you mean.
I have not seen him do more than a side split, may be a front split.
Loose hams and add, and tight quads and abd, may be that's what took his hips out.

 

[Kenpodoc]

Jeff, I am just wondering, when you said that Bill is one of the more limber people in the world, what do you mean.
I have not seen him do more than a side split, may be a front split.
Loose hams and add, and tight quads and abd, may be that's what took his hips out.

I don't know Mr. Wallace personally but He trained with a very extensive stretching and conditioning program.

My concern is that you hear a lot about proper mechanics but much of what is deemed proper is heresay and tradition which are not always wrong but deserve scrutiny. Stretching has been promoted for health and safety for many years but the literature is less conclusive as to it's benefits. If I were a young martial art student looking for a PhD thesis in a Physical therapy related field I would structure a study looking at this topic in greater detail.

Jeff

 

[Rich_Hale]

Parker never did these kicks improperly above his waist when he understood why he should not . . .

Parker told me personally, "... all those guys will have hip surgery one day." speaking about some of the "fancy kickers" as he called them.

Just a note to add to what Doc had to say about Mr. Parker not teaching the high/stressful kicks within his system.

Interestingly enough, I mentioned part of this story in a letter to Doc, just last night. I was telling him about one day when Mr. Parker said we were going to work on kicks during my lesson. As I confessed to Doc, the frozen look on my face must have given away my thoughts, because Mr. Parker said, “You don’t think I can teach you how to kick, do you? You think you are already a better kicker than I am don’t you? At that moment, I was naively thinking, Yes, I do think I’m the better kicker.

At the time I was fairly quick and I could kick straight up, so when Mr. Parker asked me to demonstrate a roundhouse kick I swiftly slipped one in at head level. He smiled and complimented my flexibility, then asked if I’d rather be hit with that kick or this one, as he thunders in a low roundhouse to knee level.

That kick scared the heck out of me, as I imagined my legs shattering beneath me. Then we spent the better part of an hour lowering, not only, the overall height of my kicks, but in dropping my hips - as I kicked as well. He explained to me how this would both create more power while providing my (new found) power a stable base upon which to rest during impact.

At the end of my lesson Mr. Parker asked if I still thought I could kick better than he could, and I said (with a smile) maybe not, but I’m closer now than I was an hour ago.

Today my kicks aren’t as lofty as they used to be, but thanks to Mr. Parker I think I can still hold my own when it comes to chopping the legs out from under the bad guy.

This all goes back to what Doc was saying about how Mr. Parker did not emphasize high kicks, but it also demonstrates Mr. Parker’s skill as a teacher who could take apart his (young) students kicks, while leaving his ego intact.


As for how my hip are holding out after all these years? Well, other than the burden of a few extra pounds resting upon them, they're doing okay.