Kenpo Knife Defense by Juan José negreira

Discussion in 'Kenpo / Kempo - Technical Discussion' started by MJS, Jul 25, 2011.

  1. ATACX GYM

    ATACX GYM 2nd Black Belt

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    Okay I'm pressed for time,so this will be quicker than usual.I hope to return and expand upon my comment later. I see that I will have to address the major fallacies in your presumption and which i keep addressing over and over again so let me re-word it in the hopes that my meaning will carry more clearly:

    When you respond critiquing a person's video or approach,you are in turn placing yourself up to critical review.In this case,your post and the reasoning behind it,Chris,is being rigorously disputed by me.Therefore you are every bit as much subject to and open to criticism as I am. You are critiquing my video and what you gather from it. I am critiquing your nonvideo posts as someone who not only did the techs you are belaboring with your posts under real world live fire but also as someone who has done and continues to do everything that we've seen in the S.T.A.B. videos that you claim that you do AND the other videos which you claim you don't do. Now,you disagree with the functionality,the facility of these other methods.That's perfectly fine and in many ways a good thing. Variety being the spice of life etc. However to conclude that the techs that I use that aren't what you do don't work or are more dangerous than yours or are the most desperate response in a last ditch desperate situation is not true,because you're segmenting a whole...which actually shows that you're doing what you claim that I'm doing: you're not understanding what I'm saying and what you're seeing.

    I repeatedly stated that everything that you've specified so far is all part of my approach,and that I don't consider a 2 on 1 wrist tie to be different than a 2 on 1 wrist and bicep tie (which is what you champion),because I train the 2 on 1 itself as my main response. Over and over and over and over again,I say that I recommend the 2 on 1 PERIOD...which allows the combination of the approach that you advise with the approaches that I have recommended on video and literally every other option extant in the 2 on 1.By decrying and denigrating and saying not to do what I am doing,you by definition have the LESS VERSATILE approach. There is no way around this,Chris. You don't do what I do because it doesn't work for you.I found a way to make it work AND do what you do AND do other stuff too,all from the 2 on 1. The fact that your apporach is less versatile is absolutely beyond debate if what you say is true. To my knowledge,until the post that you put on this very page, you have not directly stated that what we see in the S.T.A.B. videos is exactly what you do...you stated that they feature the grip you recommend,but that's not the same as saying that the techs that they display are what you actually do. When you stated this:"as well as having my method demonstrated in the majority of clips that others have posted (so my posting a clip of me doing the same thing would mean what, exactly?)" That's the first time I've seen you specifically state that the S.T.A.B. video is in essence what you do,so you "posting a clip of me [Chris Parker] doing the same thing would mean what,exactly?" ISN'T needed.Prior to this statement? I got the impression that you were alluding to the specific wrist and bicep tie you employed.

    I posted multiple wrestling links to bolster my position that I use the 2 on 1 and all of its primary options period. That means by definition--literally--that what I'm talking about encapsulates what you're talking about insofar as grip is concerned. The reason you didn't see me utilize this wrist and bicep tie approach in the clip you saw are: 1) I showed the VERSATILITY that is evident in my approach and not in any of the others thus far (which may simply be because they weren't attacked at distance but is probably an unlikely contention). I can get off kicks,kenpo techs,takedowns and the like which are NOT the common fare which means that by and large they're more difficult to defend against precisely because they're not the usual kinds of responses and 2) My uke Jabari didn't approach me from the rear in exactly the same method of attack that the S.T.A.B. guys faced 3) If the S.T.A.B. videos and the like demonstrate your approach as you claim then you have cemented my argument and position:those guys don't kick. They don't stomp ankles.Their wrist manipulations are not as emphasized as mine are,if they exist at all. They allow their opponent to continue attacks and switch knife hands and they don't focus on disarms as much as I do.

    They do knee and so do I. They elbow and so do I. They head butt and so do I. But they allow themselves to be hit due to poor head placement and I do not.They're not as adept at foot sweeps (this is where the Judo and wrestling--especially Judo--is vital and again shows the versatility that I employ which is absent from the other videos and which by extension is absent from your approach too Chris if you would indeed essentially be reposting what we've already seen). Yes this is a drill--I use it myself,that's why I'm so comfortable with both its strengths and its weaknesses--but what's missing here is that part of the drill where the disarm is mandated. We do the drill for 3 minute rounds (an ETERNITY when a knife or gun is involved) and we focus on controlling the knife/gun arm and opponent so that they cannot harm us and we CAN harm them while they're still in possession of the weapon for the first 2 minutes,and then I give the call to disarm and we have 1 minute to effect the disarm. This is utterly utterly vital,because we can't allow a person with a gun to keep his weapon while we flee. He could easily shoot us. With the knife? Run for it if you can,as that's the second safest option.The safest option of course is not to be the target of a knife attack in the first place.But if attacked by a knife wielding opponent,do as much damage in as little time as possible while remaining as absolutely safe as you can,and escaping at the first reasonable opportunity.

    Which bring me to the other thing which you decried and which shows that we have a wide difference in experience in real world fighting: you basically guffawed at the idea of the "walk up jackin". It's not funny,dawg. The walk up came as a refinement of the drive-by nearly 20 years ago. Just last week in CPT and LBC here in Killa Cali two friends of my students were assaulted that way,and one of their friends in that group was seriously injured. It's a real world scenario that's grim and the extra close quarters knife fighting shown in S.T.A.B. and the other methods you recommend completely ignore it.Where I'm from? Ignoring the Walk Up will get you killed.Alot. Again,my approach is more versatile...probably by necessity.Maybe where you're from you don't have to worry about the Walk-Up (lucky you if so) but we do,and thus our greater versatility.The fact that you don't PREFER it does not in any way detract from its viability and effectiveness.

    Back to answer more in depth later...
     
  2. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    You're pressed for time, yet manage to put down six paragraphs, most of which don't address any of the questions posed to you? Hmm, if you don't have time to answer, cool, but putting down this much without really saying anything just seems like you're arguing for the sake of arguing. It's also coming across that you may have missed most of this thread, I gotta say, as you're arguing things that haven't been said, and are claiming things have been said that haven't. How about we take this opportunity to recap, while addressing your post, yeah?

    Not actually the way it works, Ras (if it was, then all film critics would have to make their own movies in order to criticise the ones that are released, all food critics would need to cook the same dishes in order to be critics etc), but I have no problem with being critiqued. But the catch is that you haven't critiqued anything that I've said so far, more just implied some rather inaccurate aspects and constantly referenced a supposed superiority of your two hands on the wrist approach with vague comments unsupported by any actual argument or reasoning (such as it being more "versatile").

    And the fact still remains that you put your clip up as an example, in fact as a "better" example than the first one in the OP, which of course raises the questions firstly, whether it is better, and second, what makes it better. And that extends to whether or not a better approach can be shown. Despite the OP (sorry, Mike!), this thread has become a critique of your clip, and what you show in it (nothing else, Ras, just what's in the clip). Not anything else. You can (and should) question the critique, absolutely, but that is different from a demand for video to criticise yourself. Not really the way these things go.

    No, just what is shown in the video, Ras, I'm not extrapolating anything from it other than what is shown.

    Catch is, though, you're not. You're dismissing, but not critiquing. You're making vague generalities and assumptions, but not critiquing. As to the rest, I'm going to spell it out to you once more, Ras:

    We are discussing the methods you demonstrate in the first clip you put up, specifically the double-hand grab to the wrist to control a knife attack. The rest of the clips have been illustratory at best, and the question of what else you may do is really beside the point. We are discussing the method shown in your clip.

    Tell you what, here's the initial discussion, so you can catch up:

    Post #3 (my initial criticism):
    Post #5 (continuing in responce to you missing what I meant the first time):
    Post #6 (where the thrust of my criticism comes from, with your claim here):
    Combined with post #20 (your next post in responce to myself, and clarification of the crux of the discussion, being the specific grip/secure that you show):
    That's the discussion, Ras. That particular grip, and whether or not it really is "one of the best possible responces" that you can offer. Not whether or not you do other things as well, but the issues that exist with this particular approach itself (singular). To that end I have provided criticism and an alternative.

    I kinda don't know where to start with this... you've got 20 years experience in this kind of thing, Ras? I'm closer to 25 myself. And what I see, and what I say, is based on some incredibly bad experience, and some incredibly good experience. And here's some of what I've learnt over that time, with both the good and the bad.

    A charismatic teacher, by dirnt of their position of authority within the school as well as their ability to lead people, can demonstrate and teach things that don't really stand up on their own, and have it presented without having it really questioned. And, most commonly, it will only be questioned by those outside, whether in a forum such as this, or by moving to another teacher/approach/style. But the thing is that the skill of the teacher, good or bad, does not change functionality and practicality.

    Which brings me to the idea of "variety is the spice of life". Not in combat, it isn't. It's the taste of death there. In martial arts, having multiple methods is typically the hallmark of peacetime development, methods designed around actual usage in combat tend far more to the direct, simple, less is more approach. Multiple methods is the domain of creative expression, not combative functionality. Simpler and fewer is better in combative use.

    When it comes to claiming that methods that aren't mine "don't work or are more dangerous... or are more desperate... last ditch" etc is nothing to do with them not being what I do. If your method didn't show the issues that it does, but wasn't what I do, then that'd be fine. But it is more desperate, it is last ditch as it's primary usage (tactically), which does rob it of many of what you claim are it's benefits, so I say so. And yes, I'm segmenting a whole (although I am also taking it in it's greater context, probably in a greater context than you seem to be thinking here), as I am looking at the veracity of one aspect of your clip in particular, as evidenced by, oh, I don't know, this entire thread. I might suggest reading it.

    Whether you consider it to be different or not, it is very different, Ras. The body mechanics, the relative strength and control, the balance points, the ability of the opponent to struggle, the way they can struggle to retain the knife, and more are all very different. In fact, the main thing you have done with two hands on his wrist is tie up both your hands with little actual benefit, as even the strength advantage can be countermanned with a simple step. And, one more time, the thrust of this discussion is about your teaching two hands on the wrist as a primary method, not other expressions that you may use. Once more, you state that it is "one of the very best possible responces" against a knife, and that is what I'm arguing against.

    That's not what this discussion has been about, though, Ras. And, going through the thread itself again, the first reference to "the 2 on 1 in all it's forms" is in post #71. Before that you were specifically referencing the two hands on the wrist approach, with some somewhat vague references that you may have intended to mean other versions. But, and I'm going to be as clear as I can be here, two hands controlling the wrist and a double control to the upper arm and forearm (what I've been referring to as a high/low, and you've been calling a bicep and wrist grip) are two different principles, using different principles of leverage, control, strength, balance, timing, adjustment, and more. They are not the same, although they are closely related. But, again, this discussion has been about the two hands on the wrist approach and your claim that it is one of the "very best" responces.

    No way around it? Really? Let's try, shall we...

    Sure, there's a way around it (didn't take me long to find, either). It comes down to the definition of "versatile", really. What I mean by versatile is the ability to have more productive and powerful options from a single starting point, not having multiple starting points. And, due to the higher degree of control, greater level of security, better balance, and less strength needed for a high/low control, mine is the more versatile, as the double hands on the wrist makes a range of options more dangerous to attempt.

    There you go, got around it. Nice try, though.

    No, I don't do what you show in the clip because it's more dangerous, less secure, less mechanically powerful, tactically questionable (when other options are present), and more. Not because it "doesn't work for me", because it is flawed from the outset. Once again, though, such "conversation stopper" language is a little presumptuous, don't you think? After all, there is no "fact" that what I do is less versatile.... quite the opposite, when you get down to it.

    You are kidding, right? Seriously? The post directly after Mike's (when he first posted the STAB clips) was me saying that they are showing the grip I was describing (really a close variation, but certainly close enough to show the difference between that and your two hands on the wrist one), and the above post simply states (again!) that they use the same grip... there is no mention of my methods and theirs being the same. Tell you what, I'll help you out there, here are the two mentions in the above post:

    I haven't said that they are showing my techniques, and this hasn't been about techniques anyway, it's about the grip you use and the one that I use (have I said that enough yet?). Okay?

    My method of control and grip, Ras, as that has been the discussion. It is a reference to the high/low control. I don't know why you thought it referred to anything more or else, really.

    You have posted a number of links that don't show your two hands on the wrist method, others that do use it, but not against a knife, and a flawed usage against a knife which fails reality tests. Again, the principle of controlling by holding the wrist and the principle of controlling the entire arm at two separate points are different principles, so to go between them you are not "being versatile" with one concept, you are switching between two (not a bad thing in and of itself, but that's not the discussion). So you are, by definition, not. You are instead saying that you transition from yours to mine, which is different. But really, that's beside the point, as the initial clip that spawned all of this doesn't show that, and it is that clip alone that I am critiquing, not your entire methodology against a knife. You spent the first 4 pages of this thread defending that particular grip, and have only really changed to this "oh, but I do everything" comment in recent posts. Cool and all, but not the point, and doesn't change the critique of the method shown in your clip (you know, the one we are discussing?).

    Oh dear lord, to be frank, Ras, this comes across as the same self delusional talk I hear from a number of people who don't have the actual experience they think they do, and try to approach these areas with a rational, consciously thought out way. Did you ever think that the reason others don't do a lot of the things that you are saying here (kicking by staying out in the knife's functional range, keeping it between you and the opponent, reaching out and extending your balance etc) is because others consider such things too risky to be relied upon?

    Frankly, this is irrelevant. I have no idea why you feel it is a decent reason, as the grip that I use we often practice against an attack from the front. And really? You think the attack needs to be in an exact method? Hmm.

    Reread. Properly, this time. They show pretty much the same grip I use, Ras, what we do after that is fairly different, but that's not the discussion we're having here. Just so you know, though, for us it involves takedowns, controls, disarms, strips, breaks, kicks, locks, strikes, pressures, rips, tears, and more. I would also point out that you were watching a drilling method for the STAB guys, not techniques or defences for the main. Pretty big difference there.

    This is what I mean by presuming. You've misread the thread, misread my posts, missed what you're looking at in the clips, and are still presuming to tell me what's missing in my knife defence capabilities. Son, as I said, mine is probably more versatile than yours. How about you just recognise that the discussion is about the two grips? Kay? Kay.

    And if you were in my class, and you were struggling for more than about 5-10 seconds, I'd consider that a fail. 3 minutes? Either you're dead, or the attacker is one of the most stupid knifemen ever produced.

    Now, before you cry foul over that, I get the reasons for such drills, and see their use. But as far as I'm concerned, it's teaching rather dangerous habits and expectations (that you can continue to struggle against a knife for that long with some form of safety).

    I don't know who you think you're telling this too, Ras, but this is all completely off the discussion topic, which is the grip you are using in the clip you posted in the second post of this thread, and your subsequent defence of it as "one of the very best options". What you do after that hasn't been part of the discussion, hasn't been called into question (save that you may not get to "after" with the grip you are advocating), so I don't know where you think you're going with this. If I didn't know better, I'd think you're trying to build credibility with some self evident truisms, stating things that aren't going to be argued with.... hmm.

    Okay, I had to go hunting for where you got that idea from. And, once again, you seem to have completely missed what I was saying. You were asking about dealing with a knife assault from different ranges, claiming that the STAB clips were limited to a single range, and therefore my approach was as well. And what I told you was that the same principles are employed, and when it starts from a greater distance, then you have more time to deal with it. If you're discussing an ambush type assault, that's why we teach awareness and maintaining distance first and foremost. None of which has any real effect on the discussion here... and none of which was me "guffawing" at the idea of an ambush-style assault. Kay? Kay.

    So your approach against a close-quarters (within half an arms length, I believe you suggested) ambush assault is to try to grab their wrist with both your hands? I can think of a few other things I'd rely on first, that don't give them the range to deploy the knife even more successfully and powerfully, don't take me off balance by suddenly leaping back, and don't overcommit myself to a low return movement (trying to catch the fastest moving part of their arm while it holds a bladed weapon), but that's me. And again, you haven't demonstrated anything close to greater versatility or effectiveness.

    Can I suggest you go back over the thread and answer the questions I've posed to you first? You don't seem to have answered any of them, while I've answered everything you've asked me so far. Might be nice to get some answers before another plug for your upcoming DVD (is it three or four mentions you've managed to slip into this thread?). Kay? Kay.
     
  3. Cyriacus

    Cyriacus Senior Master

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    Im not even going to attempt to properly follow this conversation - I am going to comment on my own Opinion from what I can gather, however.

    Securing the Wrist with both hands incapacitates your movement substantially.
    Whilst you could slide a hand up and grab the arm as well, I can see a few ways that could go wrong.
    Now, a sidenote: This also depends on how youre Training. This would definitely work on some thug. But any remotely Trained individual would be able to circumvent that using the Arm youre grabbing to rather keep YOU in Position; And we Train under a Combative Idealogy, in which all of your Opponents are potentially rather skilled. Unless im now talking about what you two arent talking about but which I think youre talking about or something.
    Im of the Idealogy that securing the Wrist with one hand gives you more options from that point. Optionally, the Forearm. I personally think the Bicep would get you too close.
    Now, im not saying anyones right or wrong. You two can debate that.
    Im just taking this chance to state how id go about starting off. And id start off by deflecting, then if possible from there, grabbing the Wrist or Forearm.
    Then using any number of options from that point.
    How I deflected/grabbed would be subject to what best suited the Knife Attack itself.

    Whats most Pertinent, I feel, is that you have Options after the Catalyst. Rather than creating a new Catalyst after a certain point. Since that deflection (Or Dodge. But thats different again) renders that particular attack null. What you do after that is what should count. It could be Grabbing the Forearm or Wrist. It could be Kicking. It could be jamming the attack and coming in with Punches. It could be a Disarm. A Takedown. You could Reposition. Do a Legsweep. Again, thats not what im talking about mainly.

    That said, grabbing the Wrist and Arm can work. Im not saying it wont. Or Forearm and Bicep. Its just a different approach, with different Dynamics. And id rather have one hand on the Forearm and the other on the Head or Neck. Since youre that close, why not? It reduces your Opponents Offensive Options more than entrapping a single arm. What if they start kicking your Knees? Your own Grab keeps you in range for that, unless youre doing something to cause an immediate effect.

    Incidentally, ill mention im completely open to Criticism. Praise. Suggestion. Whathaveyou. In our System, Knife stuff becomes much more focused at Blue Belt. While the Training of it is the same at Green Belt, im not going to claim im Super-Experienced. I know enough to discuss it though.

    Just My Contribution.
    Thats whats worked for me in Self Defense stuff with Knives, anyway.
     
  4. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    Yeah, it's a fun one to try to follow... I've had to keep going back over the entire thread in my responces!

    It's best use is to move into a "arm drag" movement, pulling the knife past you to move in and get the better control. And I think Ras is kinda halfway there when he was talking about the "grab and whip" action he initially employs, he just isn't continuing onto the second part.

    Hmm. No. On a couple of fronts there.

    First off, let's look at your street thug. The primary thing to understand about someone attacking you is that they feel they have an advantage which makes it safe for them to do so, whether it is alcohol, drugs, desperation, prior experience, friends around them, size, strength, speed, or a weapon. These advantages gives the attacker confidence, which is put into the particular item itself (in this case, a knife). As a result, once you threaten their perceived "power" (by taking control of the knife or knife arm), they will automatically, and immediately try to regain or retain control of it. So as soon as you grab their arm, wherever you do, their immediate responce is to try to pull it back. As a result, a grab needs to be very secure and immediate against them. Otherwise, the immediate, and natural responce from an untrained person, will be to cut back at your arm as they retrieve their weapon.

    If you are dealing with a skilled person, the same thing occurs, just with better placed cuts and better mechanics. But the thing is, that type of specialisation is not something that would be commonly encountered. It's more likely to be the street thug, so training (for self defence) should be geared with them in mind, not the trained individual. Trained individuals are encountered in sporting contests, not outside of that in the main. The skills that the average street thug, particularly a knifeman, possesses are not to be underestimated, though! They may typically be relatively simple, but they are also highly effective, and are borne out of experience more than training.

    Except that it's far too weak to rely on, and there can be some major structural issues to contend with (the angle that you would need to come in on can lead to even less strength, whereas the attacking arm is already in a functionally strong position, relatively speaking, as it needs to be to use the knife effectively). Bad idea.

    You want to be that close. The only safe places against a knife (really, any weapon) are outside of it's functional range, or inside it. Staying directly in the functional range is the bad place to be. With a knife, it's going to be anywhere from a slightly bent arm (the attackers arm) to another three feet beyond that. You need to be either inside of that range, and controlling, or outside of it.

    Start by evading and guarding. From there you move into control. Then, and only then (once control is established) you can start to look at other options. But you should first look to your footwork, you have two choices, evade out, or move in.

    Control of the weapon is key. The only time you don't want to be going for weapon control is when you are purely escaping.

    Not the forearm. There isn't enough control over the weapon itself. The high/low control controls the weapon (at the wrist) and the body (by controlling the upper arm). Kicking your knee really isn't a huge possibility, unless you are too far out to control properly, in which case you're in that danger zone I mentioned earlier. The arm on the head and/or neck doesn't actually give enough control, as it allows a fair amount of movement of the upper body, allowing them to move around, and ultimately, control the weapon. Bad idea.

    Criticism? Check. Suggestions? Check. Praise? Uh... maybe not with these ideas, my friend.
     
  5. Cyriacus

    Cyriacus Senior Master

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    All Duly Noted;
    And this is the kind of Alternative Perspective I aimed to ascertain from this Site all those... Weeks or Months, im not sure; Ago.
    And I seem to keep getting it.

    I gather from that, overall; Closer = Better. Control > Position. Be more worried about the Knife than the Attacker at first. Thugs can be senselessly brave.
     
  6. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    Not quite... Close isn't better than far away, the aim is to be in a place where the weapon is not readily able to injure you, or such usage is severely limited. Control is essential, but position is part of that. And don't overly fixate on the knife, or other things catch you by surprise. Thugs can be senseless....
     
  7. Cyriacus

    Cyriacus Senior Master

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    The first part was bad phrasing - Of course you want to be out of Range, but if youre actively performing a Defensive Movement;
    *nods at the rest*
     
  8. MJS

    MJS Administrator Staff Member

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    Yeah, I agree. I'm not sure how we got on the single/single discussion came up, but yes, I agree, and that was kinda my point....unless I missed something, I didn't see anything usable.



    True. Like I said earlier, its simply one option. If that option works, great. If not, move on to the next, and so forth. :) The thing with pressure points, while I like them, unless you're so good that you nail it just right, in the heat of the moment, its very possible that you could miss or the desired result will not be reached.



    :)



    Agreed! Which is why I'm a huge advocate of this, unfortunately, to the deaf ears of some Kenpoists, but to each his own. :)



    Ah, yes, I agree. Sorry, misunderstood the text. :)



    I dont see any huge issues with using the butt end of the blade, if you had to, but the blade part...well, unless the guy was hell bent on killing you and you could prove this in court......it'd be better to beat the **** out of the guy with your empty hands..lol. I saw a Kenpo guy, who also does Pikiti Tirsia. It pretty much showed exactly what you described here. If you're interested in seeing it, I'll PM you, but I'd rather not post here so we dont derail the thread. That'd probably make a good topic though...what not to do when dealing with an armed attacker.
     
  9. MJS

    MJS Administrator Staff Member

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    Just so I'm clear on the terms being used here: Walk up- is that being defined as someone walking up to you, blade out, in an attempt to use the knife, intimidate with the knife, grab you with a free hand, while the knife is pressed up against you? Lets look at this a few different ways.

    1) First and foremost, if you saw someone approaching you with a blade, why in Gods name, would you allow them to get that close? IIRC, this came up in another post in this thread, and I gave examples of what I would do. IIRC, Chris did the same. Unless I'm in a room with nothing around, and totally naked, theres a number of improvised tools that should be readily available to use. IMO, this is where the footwork and ability to create distance will come into play.

    2) If by chance you're not aware, and the guy does get close enough, well, the methods of dealing with that, will differ from if he's coming in from a distance.
     
  10. MJS

    MJS Administrator Staff Member

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    Just a few things that caught my attention.

    1) The trained vs. non trained: Unfortunately alot of it is blocked out for a few, then comes back to a clear shot, but in the Dog Bros DLO (Die Less Often) clips, which can be found on youtube, we see the same method or a similar method in the STAB clips. I'd say those guys fall into the trained category.

    2) The 2 on 1 grip: IMO, the STAB clips do start with that, however, they're transitioning to another grip, one, which, IMO, gives alot more control, due to the marrying of the arm, to your body. The badguys 1 arm, vs. the strength of your body, should allow more control.

    3) Where to grab: I agree, there are a number of spots. :)

    In closing....this stuff is like going thru a lock flow series. We transition from lock to lock to lock. Will we do that in a real situation? Of course not. What thats showing, is when you're attempting one, and it fails, something else will hopefully open up, so you can transition to that, and so forth. This is similar to the "Oh ****" moment that I talked about earlier. Initially we may have to grab, stop, etc, the arm, one way, and move to a more productive method. :)
     
  11. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    Ah. I took the "single attacker, single defender" thing from your comment about "one person attacks, one defends", that could be it..

    Ah, pressure points... fun. There's a couple of ways that they can be approached very effectively (as additions to pins for pain compliance, for example), what I was getting at was more that the arm moves, which can lessen the effectiveness of a strike to it. That, combined with the natural pain blocking aspects of adrenaline, means that I wouldn't rely on it being a "limb destruction" unless I was guaranteeing breaking it.

    No, using the butt end of the knife is good, it's a non-lethal responce that ends the opponents ability to continue to threaten, the rest is highly irresponsible. But, to clarify, it's not what I described, it's what Jeff did! And, looking back at my comment, I missed Jeff's cut to the Achilles Tendon, so it's even worse than I suggested! The thread sounds like a good one, though.
     
  12. MJS

    MJS Administrator Staff Member

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    There were times when I'd spar, and we'd work specific things. In some cases, one person would just be offense, while the other was defense. That is what that clip reminded me of. To me, it didn't seem like the defender was really doing anything, other than getting cut, such as you said. LOL. Maybe my example is what led to the condusion. No problem. :)



    Ah, ok, I see what you're saying. Yes, we're in agreement.



    Agreed. I'll go ahead and start the new thread. Hopefully it'll be a success. :)
     
  13. ATACX GYM

    ATACX GYM 2nd Black Belt

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    I'd completely forgotten about this thread. Lol. MJS the "Walk-Up" is a refinement of the "Drive-By", a high speed surprise attack designed to catch your opponent(s) off guard--usually rival gang members but now it's just any kind of rival period--unawares and inflict maximal fatal damage on them and be gone before they registered what happened. The Walk-Up came about because many people doing the drive-by [ usually this is done by first surveying your enemies,waiting for a time that their guard is down, creeping up on them with lights out, waiting until they are maximally vulnerable and oftentimes intoxicated and wholly distracted, then driving by in an oftentimes stolen vehicle firing shots from the car and blazing off of the block in a single violent ultra-fast ultra-surprise attack] would miss the target or include too much collateral damage in the shooting attack. The Walk-Up utilized similar methods of surprise but usually the attackers would come swooping from some unexpected spot like hiding behind cars parked in the driveway of the intended victim or swooping around on foot from the neighbors' house. They've also dropped from trees, popped out from the sides of the houses, walked up on wall sized living room windows and shot through them, etc etc. There are infinite permutations,but basically it's a surprise attack and extraction set up wholly without the mark's notice and carried out from much closer quarters in order to amplify the likelihood of killing the specific victim(s) targeted. It's not some moron walking up with blade out doing stupid stuff just begging to be countered. Lolol. Good question, though...


    And Chris Parker? Yeah...we'll need that video of yours,thanks.
     
  14. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    You mean you still didn't get what I meant after all those descriptions, and now, 3 months later, you want a clip? Give me a week or two, and I'll see what I can come up with...
     
  15. ATACX GYM

    ATACX GYM 2nd Black Belt

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    Still waitin on those clips of you personally doing your thing, Chris...thanks. Been 4 months now...
     
  16. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    So you don't get what has been written? Really? Right, I'll see what I can come up with. In the meantime, try reading the thread again... we'll see if you can see what the message has been all along. Although I don't hold out much hope, honestly.
     
  17. ATACX GYM

    ATACX GYM 2nd Black Belt

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    I think this thread has shown that there is an admixture of things going on...but for my part? it's not that I don't "get" what has been written. I DISAGREE with what you've said in the way that you've said it. And video goes a looong way toward eliminating contention or specifying the areas of disagreement because presumably a video of you doing your thing would be tantamount to you incarnating your words with visible movement. I could write a description of a Olympic gymnastic event...or you could watch the Olympic event live. Which would give you a more thorough appreciation of the skill power grace and athleticism displayed? Answer: both could do the trick, but only if you had a common mental pic with me to start with. Once you've SEEN an Arabian done by a gymnast? When you READ about it you won't be flummoxed. You and I differ on two main points: I include your method in my approach, you don't include mine in yours. You believe that what I showed in my video is high risk and low yield, and I've been doing this for years in real world situations so I know for a fact that it's not.

    It's now time for you to show us empirically what you mean, as I have shown you what I mean. The foregoing thread and its multiple pages actually strongly support the need for the visual medium to supplement it, rather than in any way denigrates or de-emphasizes such a need.
     
  18. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    Ah, but what I'm mostly going to do is demonstrate what I've said here... which are the issues with your grip the way it's employed. Not necessarily "how I do it", as there are enough videos already in this thread showing that, but illustrating why your approach is not the recommended one.
     
  19. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    Folks,
    It might be worth remembering that demanding a member provide proof or documentation starts getting into fraudbusting territory. By & large, you can ask, but the other member is free to decline to respond. Asking repeatedly becomes a concern.
     
  20. ATACX GYM

    ATACX GYM 2nd Black Belt

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    fradubusting, huh? Never thought of that. Okay then thanks for the heads up
     

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