Kenpo Ground Fighting

Discussion in 'Kenpo / Kempo - Technical Discussion' started by MJS, Dec 14, 2010.

  1. K831

    K831 Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2007
    Messages:
    595
    Likes Received:
    27
    Trophy Points:
    28
    The one other area that some of the competitors who come out combatives nights really struggle (my new FMA instructor runs an MMA program and a boxing program, so they sometimes trickle into the other classes out of curiosity or because they get to know the few of us who do both) is on the take-down. It really takes a while for a lot of them to get their heads around this. Just watching any MMA event will show someone that as soon as a good grappler gets popped good in the head or is taking some abuse in the stand up, he shoots or clinches. In MMA, I don't blame them, because it is much harder to punish them for it. What happens repeatedly in the combatives class however, is that they shoot and when they don't get the shot, they continue to drive for it (just like you see in MMA competitions all the time). Problem is, while they drive for the single or push me up against the wall and hang on, I WILL use downward elbows on the back of the head, neck and spine. I will punt them when they have one knee on the ground. I will tear into their eyes while they drive the shot or clinch. I will use my other hand to draw my (rubber) knife they work for the take-down, sweep, for under hooks, hip control or whatever. They are SO CONDITIONED to drive for the take-down and so conditioned not to have to worry about any of that, that they give it no thought, and it takes numerous pummeling at 1/4 power for them to realize the dangers in shooting, but in particular, the dangers in pressing it if they don't get the take-down clean the first time.

    There was one big guy 225 or so who wrestled at the state uni here who came in. Tough athletic kid. I'm 185ish lean and he watched me one night giving it good to the other grapplers and stood right up and said "I'll take you down". Well, I'm scrappy but not stupid, and I knew he likely would. I told him to change and jump in. While he was changing I grabbed one of my hard plastic training knives and put it in my pants under my shirt. He came back out and we started moving around. He pressed just enough for me to start letting my hands go and as soon as I did, shot under a punch and got me... slammed me hard to, but all that weight came down on that hard plastic tip and the point was made. Would have rung me good on pavement, maybe knocked me out....but he would have died. It's just a different way of thinking.
     
  2. ATACX GYM

    ATACX GYM 2nd Black Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2011
    Messages:
    893
    Likes Received:
    24
    Trophy Points:
    0
    ^^^I love this guy! Lolol.

    My experiences run this gamut as well.I have found that it takes LESS training to transition from SD to sport combatives,but it DOES TAKE TRAINING.The mindsets are different,and the pride that we acquire from obtaining real skill in SD can take a drubbing if we don't make the MENTAL adjustment during sport combatives so that we perform well under those circumstances.Once we make the MENTAL adjustment and become comfy? The sport game is much easier.We ALREADY HAVE those skills,we just need to tweak them in a particular fashion...which can only come from training and sparring them in a specific way over a specific period of time.For me? It takes about 2 weeks for me to fully setlle into the groove of sport stuff.Moderate contact point fighting karate is the hardest transition for me because even the way I trained my Karate base (Kenpo) contains a great deal of violence that could land me in jail if I were to pull these things off in a tourney.However,I've long known this so I focus on sequences and setups that are both devastating enough to satisfy my tastes and fully legal in point tournies.

    Which actually leads to another very interesting discussion: I HAVE NEVER SEEN ANYBODY PULL OFF ANY OF THE SELF-DEFENSE SEQUENCES IN TOURNIES.And you know what? My friend Clark aka kenpoteacher is the only other person besides myself or my martial arts bloodkin who both noted this and either suggested the use of various self-defense techniques in tournies.I used the BKF+my ATACX GYM juiced up version of the ALTERNATING MACES,5 Swords,Tripping Arrow (usually applied at the end of a combination,and I HAVE NEVER FAILED TO TAKE MY OPPONENT DOWN) and a whole plethora of other techniques.Now I will stop this here in order to avoid veering off onto a tangent,but I definitely think that the LACK of SPARRING AND TOURNEY USE of the 72 Self-Defense sequences are utterly essential.

    Okay back to the main point of this thread and your well thought out posts,K831
     
  3. ATACX GYM

    ATACX GYM 2nd Black Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2011
    Messages:
    893
    Likes Received:
    24
    Trophy Points:
    0

    I find that both TMA and MMA-style guys tend to suck at the takedown,especially in the SD environment...usually because neither of them have been sufficiently introduced to the reality of weapons.I lol'd and texted my brother after I read your post about the 225 pound guy.I've deployed a finger nail clipper--YES A FINGER NAIL CLIPPER--with devastating effect while grappling on the ground one time.I was being handily handled by a talented bjj purple with 2 stripes (on his way to brown) when I snapped off a head butt (HARD) to his abdomen,Snaking Talone'd him (didn't get his eyes but he momentarily thrust him head out the way while seeking a devilish closed guard sweep) I disentangled his grip,dipped into thee ole sweats pocket and pulled out the finger nail clipper then got tuh clippin away on the tender inner thigh meat.His reaction was one for the ages.Then it was Dance of Death time,and game over.Lolololol.

    Now,I'm 154lbs. at fighting trim and sometimes I'll power up to 158-60,and when I'm doing my hardcore superhealthy diet (which I'm making a vow to stick to from now on) I drop to 150-155 pounds,but with that "disproportionate strength of elite gymnasts and Bulgarian powerlifters",as a strength and conditioning coach once described me.Lololol.I face collegiate,university,and MMA wrestlers of 185-240 all the time.Sometimes I face judoka of up to 315 pounds.The takedown is a given in many instances...but sometimes it's ME doing the takedown on THEM,and it's never an EASY takedown for them when they DO get me down.

    But every single time they take me down--even my wonderful fellow judoka with the ferocious and greatly underestimated gripping systems that judo is becoming more and more infamous for-- I note that I can get a good eye gouge off if I wanted to,and sometimes I 'poke' them on their eyebrows or the sides of their eyes to make my point ironclad.

    What do you think about this scenario?
     
  4. KenpoOG

    KenpoOG White Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2011
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    I think that I am getting emotional over here. A quality discussion without at least one person breaking in with the ever so educated response of" Then why dont we see Kenpo in the UFC?"

    BTW, my response is always" You DO see them brain trust, they are called punches. Kenpo=Fist Law. Do the math.
     
  5. ATACX GYM

    ATACX GYM 2nd Black Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2011
    Messages:
    893
    Likes Received:
    24
    Trophy Points:
    0

    ahahahahahaha!!!!
     
  6. Thesemindz

    Thesemindz Senior Master

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2003
    Messages:
    2,168
    Likes Received:
    100
    Trophy Points:
    108
    Location:
    Springfield, Missouri
    So tonight before class I went in early and took our B.O.B. (body opponent bag) off his base and laid him down on the floor. Then I spent about half an hour practicing all of our techniques through the black belt level against the B.O.B. from mount, rear mount, guard, rear guard, side mount, and scarf position.

    Of course, not all the techniques applied exactly, and some didn't apply at all, but I was trying to explore where the striking and grappling combinations could be applied from each position. I also practiced full power strikes from each position and blocks and grapples in the air as well as position transfers.

    I really enjoyed this. I got a great sweat on, I got to practice some full power strikes from ground positions and really explore where and how I can generate power while on the ground. The theme of tonight's class was Up/Down techniques, so we then went on to apply many of these same ideas during class itself.

    We finished class with one minute exhibition rounds of ground fighting to dominance or submission and then I gave each of my students a chance for a round against me. It went really well and we all had a great time and learned a lot.

    I also wanted to comment on the discussion upthread about takedowns. In this class, my students worked takedowns from the front, side, and rear, as well as sacrifice takedowns and falling with an opponent. We practiced falling into ground positions, and fighting out of ground positions. We practiced taking the opponent down and then attacking him with hands and feet and weapons from a standing position and we practiced defending against takedowns using sprawls and strikes. Kenpo has a ton of takedowns and takedown defenses, and they work if you practice them aggressively.

    If you haven't put the B.O.B. on the ground and worked your techniques against him, I recommend it. I got a lot out of it and I'll definitely do it again. If you don't have a B.O.B., a heavy bag will do. Or even the top of a Wavemaster in a pinch.

    Like I said, not everything translates perfectly. You have to look for the "situational approaches that are interchangeable." But many of the techniques, and many of the parts of the techniques, are directly applicable to the ground. Give it a shot. It's an eye opener.


    -Rob
     
  7. ATACX GYM

    ATACX GYM 2nd Black Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2011
    Messages:
    893
    Likes Received:
    24
    Trophy Points:
    0
    How'd you do with Falcons of Force,Snakes of Wisdom and Courting The Tiger,etc? I've spent an entire class working on Falcons of Force alone.However,it's not uncommon for me to spend a week on the gajillion variants of one tech (meaning we do the same or very similar responses to whatever the attack is,just adjusted for weapons,multiple opponents,and the tactical goal of the drill like ESCAPE or RESCUE or both) and make it really fun in the process.I even identify where in our katas these techs are and create isolated drills where I make 2-man katas become isolated sparring.I use a little creativity.Like this: take,say,Short 1-3.Have one student use the blocks and movements from Short 1,whereas the other student can use the attacks from Short 2 or 3.They can ONLY use those techs...and have them go step by step through the form.Short 1 student defends,Short 2-3 attacks.By the 3rd time through,I let the Short 2-3 student use whatever order of attacks from the form that they want...and encourage the student using Short 1 to ATTACK with the blocks too (the blocks become hammerfist+forearm strikes with even some elbow strike action thrown in),thus making the student using Short 2-3 employ THE BLOCKS IN THOSE FORMS. Change roles now...the student formerly doing Short 1 is now doing short 2-3 and vice versa. Then let them spar with those techs.I do this with my beginners too...I just limit them to Short 1 only and make them see how they can use the blocks-strikes in sooo many scenarios.While mounted,I make them block the opponent's body,thighs,etc. and hammerfist these areas at the same time.We use the blocks to fight off chokes,grabs,weapons and holds,sweeps and help us scramble back to our feet,etc.You get the idea.

    They learn HELLA FAST,man.They never get bored.They start coming to me with new ways of using techs or more importantly,circumstances I haven't thought of to use the techs (one of my students told me that he was playing PS3 with his brother,his brother was winning...until he used the Short 1 blocks to disarm him of the game controller,then bow stanced directly through and on top of his brother,stomping on his brother's unsuspecting hand in the process.While his brother was thus distracted,he won the game they were playing.Lololol. After he and I laughed about it,I made him do our Basics Calisthenics drill twice nonstop) and we begin to see that there is sooo much repetition of techs as we progress in Kenpo...if we bother to learn each tech in depth.
     
  8. SenseiHitman

    SenseiHitman Orange Belt

    Joined:
    May 3, 2016
    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    11
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    Arizona
    Yes, I agree with you, that looked like Kempo, he was not just speed slapping a statue he was taking control, and he is totally right, "slow the H*LL down". This video was refreshing to see. I also saw a brief clip of Speakman performing his 5.0 and that was also refreshing.
    I got my black belts in both Jujitsu and Kenpo back in the1990s. I was very active then, and kept my eye on the other various methods taught at that time, however, since then I have retied to just training on my own with a couple select students, so it is as if I have been sleeping in a cave for a long time. unaware of the recent developments. When I went to sleep, Kenpo was over commercialized and in disarray. Recently,I began researching whats out their now, and in my opinion, Functional Kenpo and Kenpo 5.0 are the future. I hope to see more like this and less of the slap happy fake bull sh*t.
     
  9. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple Senior Master

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2012
    Messages:
    3,047
    Likes Received:
    692
    Trophy Points:
    213
    Location:
    New York
    Out of curiosity, what are your ranks in the arts you practice? I assumed until now that you were primarily a beginner based on your posts, but from this I'm guessing that is not the case. Also, your age changed on your profile from 13 to 47. I'm assuming that the 47 is correct and the 13 was just a technical issue with the site?
     
  10. Touch Of Death

    Touch Of Death Sr. Grandmaster

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    May 6, 2003
    Messages:
    11,608
    Likes Received:
    842
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Spokane Valley WA
    There is nothing wrong with the slap if you are using points of reference. It is often poorly imitated but there is a logic to it.
     
  11. SenseiHitman

    SenseiHitman Orange Belt

    Joined:
    May 3, 2016
    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    11
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    Arizona
    5th degree black belt Way of Kempo Kenpo Karate. 2nd degree black belt Tsuru Michi Jujitsu. 1st degree black belt Way of Kempo Kempo Jujitsu . Instructor Way of Kempo Kempo Bojitsu. Yes I am 47, I would never claim to be 13, it was a tech. issue with the site.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2016
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2008
    Messages:
    6,016
    Likes Received:
    927
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Melbourne, Australia
    Just a possibility here… are you perhaps confusing "SenseiHitman" with "SenseiBlackBelt"… who is 13, and very much a beginner?
     
  13. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple Senior Master

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2012
    Messages:
    3,047
    Likes Received:
    692
    Trophy Points:
    213
    Location:
    New York
    Yes, I did. Thank you for pointing that out I had not realized that!
     

Share This Page

Search tags for this page

does kenpo have ground fighting

,

ground fighting in kempo

,

ground fighting in kenpo

,

how kempo deal with ground fight

,

kenpo ground fighting