Ken/mpo-Karate-Kajukenbo

[GAB]

I would like to start a discussion on Martial Artists opinions (yes opinions) and their (thoughts on the technical side) of the names of various Martial Arts that came from China, Okinawa, Japan, Hawaii, Korea, Phillipines or Filipines.

Lineage seems to be very important to some, others in the Arts don't really care, they are so misinformed that they are totally confused, so please don't give them any facts, for they will argue until Jupitars moon "Titan" will become a new earth.

Anyone want to participate??

I will start out with...There once was a man named "Buddha" (because we are speaking english). You can correct me on that, so we will be able to get started.

Regards, Gary

 

[Blindside]

....and he sat under a fig tree.

What is the point of this thread????

Lamont

 

[GAB]

....and he sat under a fig tree.

What is the point of this thread????

Lamont

Why does the sun come up in the east and set in the west?

Regards, Gary

 

[Touch Of Death]

Buddha wondered why his parents named him Buddha, "after all" he thought, "Buddha is a title". He then reached over and smashed a spider.

 

[Michael Billings]

Before the thread gets move to the Comedy Cafe ... not your intent Gary, I know.

I would like to start a discussion on Martial Artists opinions (yes opinions) and their (thoughts on the technical side) of the names of various Martial Arts that came from China, Okinawa, Japan, Hawaii, Korea, Phillipines or Filipines.

Lineage seems to be very important to some, others in the Arts don't really care, they are so misinformed that they are totally confused, so please don't give them any facts, for they will argue until Jupitars moon "Titan" will become a new earth.

Anyone want to participate??

I will start out with...There once was a man named "Buddha" (because we are speaking english). You can correct me on that, so we will be able to get started.

But I gotta say, you set yourself up with the italicized comment. "Give them no facts?" Maybe I should just go ahead and move it, I'm in a movin' kinda mood.

-Michael

 

[Seig]

I think I see where Gary was trying to go with this. I hope I am right and will clue in on the lineage thing.

The lineage idea or model is a very hot topic within certain groups, mainly those that can prove their lineage. While some say that this is to preserve the integrity of what was taught by the founders, I think the truth is far more cultural. IN essence, a Martial Arts lineage is much like a family name. Someone in another thread mentioned a victorian view point. If one cares to look, most American cultures that have their roots in Europe or the Middle East have this phenomenom. You can see this in non martial arts related groups such as DAR, Daughters of the American Revolution. People take pride in their family's name and accomplishments. It is in essence a pedigree. In psychological terms you could say that people are adding value to their own self persception through the accomplishments of their ancestors.

 

[Ceicei]

Well, I am under the impression that a possible common "ancestor" to the lineages of Kenpo, Kempo, Kajukenbo, and others is Daruma? I don't have any thing really to confirm that impression. History is not my strong suit, although I do consider it quite interesting.

- Ceicei

 

[Seig]

Well, I am under the impression that a possible common "ancestor" to the lineages of Kenpo, Kempo, Kajukenbo, and others is Daruma? I don't have any thing really to confirm that impression. History is not my strong suit, although I do consider it quite interesting.

- Ceicei

Mr. Parker has that in II Vol 1. The common accepted theory is that all martial arts go back to that.

 

[Ceicei]

Isn't Daruma also known as Bodhidharma(sp?) Many Kenpo books (besides the Infinite Insights series) with a chapter or two on history often refer to that name. Not sure if Kempo/Kajukenbo make the same claim with their histories.

- Ceicei

 

[GAB]

Isn't Daruma also known as Bodhidharma(sp?) Many Kenpo books (besides the Infinite Insights series) with a chapter or two on history often refer to that name. Not sure if Kempo/Kajukenbo make the same claim with their histories.

- Ceicei

Hi, Yes, and also yes to the other post on the Daruma.

It is interesting about ones outlook at others religions and cultures. If a couple of the original posts would have been making fun of Christ or God you would see all sorts of posts and moderators being called.

Probably by the same people who were making fun of Buddha. I don't care like I stated, I am Agnostic...

Thanks Seig for the save, I hope it will not be in vain. I think the first couple of responses were in fun and fine, but it all depends on whose ox is getting gored.

Interesing like I say, there were no italics (but maybe there should have been).

I spoke of Buddha and now we have gotten to Ceicei's input about the time it got into China and getting closer to the gist of the original thought (Seig caught my rambling, again thanks).

Anyone else want to pick it up from hear or not.

Regards, Gary

 

[Pacificshore]

I think I see where Gary was trying to go with this. I hope I am right and will clue in on the lineage thing.

The lineage idea or model is a very hot topic within certain groups, mainly those that can prove their lineage. While some say that this is to preserve the integrity of what was taught by the founders, I think the truth is far more cultural. IN essence, a Martial Arts lineage is much like a family name. Someone in another thread mentioned a victorian view point. If one cares to look, most American cultures that have their roots in Europe or the Middle East have this phenomenom. You can see this in non martial arts related groups such as DAR, Daughters of the American Revolution. People take pride in their family's name and accomplishments. It is in essence a pedigree. In psychological terms you could say that people are adding value to their own self persception through the accomplishments of their ancestors.

Very good point :asian:

 

[The Kai]

So Buddha comes into China and begins teaching or there is already a form of Kung fu at a temple that he stops at........??
Todd

 

[mhouse]

I can state that the Shaolin Kenpo/Karazempo agrees with the "Bohidhrama as a common ancestor" arguement.

Let me put it one step futher. I'm not sure how much I agree with the veracity of what follows, but the concept is a good one.

Bohidhrama comes from India to China. Teaches 18 Hands of Lo Han to the ailing monks. Over the years the monks develop Kung Fu. Over the centuries the various other cultures in Aisa make contact with China. To use an over-simplification, those who founded Tang Soo Do saw the monks on days they were practicing kicks. They liked what they saw and went to work with it. Those who created Akido and Jui Jitsu happen to be watching on a ground fighting day, they liked it and went to study it on their own. Those who founded Karate saw them punching, etc, etc.

Like I said, it's a gross-oversimplification, but I thought the concept behind that story was neat.

 

[The Kai]

Actually I heard that Aikido is based on Pak-Ga(sp?)

Todd

 

[GAB]

Hi Kai=Todd,

Don't start sniping, you have done 2 posts and both are snipes...

You need to put forth some good information and follow the rules of verbal engagement...IMO

OK.. With that said, what do you know about the various stories that you want to contribute to this thread?

We are in China at a temple of monks who are preserving their way of life and seek nothing other then enlightment from their meditations...Their bodies are withering away because they do not do much exercise...

Regards, Gary %-}

 

[The Kai]

Gary(Gab)
Not sure how i am sniping (sorry)

Here's my opinion, Everybody has heard the ol' shaolin temple thing.
Now, a Chinese Ma'ists might want to jump on me here. There is a certain way that shaolin based arts move, which does'nt explain Tibeten Long Fist Style, Hsing I or Pak kua.
Was Buddha 1 man? Since Buddha means enlightened one there could be a long line of buddha's all tied together by Karmic succession. Outlandish? Read about the present Dali lama.
So Buddha adds what he has to the indignious art of the area he is in, but there are arts that are practiced outside the temple.
Aikido I was told comes from Pak kua, not watching the temple on a certain day.
Okinwan karate is mostly traced back to White Crane Kung Fu (According to Pat McCarthy)
Kicking arts tied mostly to northern Kung fu
Jujitsu from chin Na and the fact that the japanese did most of their fighting in armor and with swords

shaolin temple probably more advanced due to military generals "hiding out". The triads to some extent trace back to the same temple.

You offered people to offer thier opinions, if they don't go in the direction you want don'r blame me! If I broke some rules of verbal engagement I am sorry, I could'nt find them in my handbook! Please telll me what you want and maybe I can give you the right answers
Todd

 

[GAB]

Hi Todd,

I think that is a good post, I am just trying to gather MA's together to discuss the linage of their art or what they think or opinion. I appreciate your input...

Sure lots of Buddha's, kind of a lineage thing through enlightenment like you said.

I feel you are full of good information.
I will say some more regarding the unusualness of USA and the Asian thoughts regarding Heaven and Earth...

Western goes back to an interesting thought pattern regarding the one God and watching over its flock. Why sheepherders are pretty easy to relate this to, David and all the various stories regarding this thought.. Simple I know....

Now when you go to Eastern thought (asia) China and the various areas our
MA comes from... Men receiving enlightenment and meditating, similar to praying and talking to angels???

Very broad brush here, fill in anywhere you want to.

Kung Fu Tzu and other men of wisdom playing major roles in how the culture viewed the world, very much different from one another E&W...

Buddha talks about the right way to do things, 10 commands or commandments are just that...

Ritual is in both of the cultures W and E. But again much different...

Lets go from here and have some more thoughts, please.

Regards, Gary

ps. how about both cultures abandoning the world and hiding out in places to pray and meditate, to keep the way they cherish going with out women???
How long will that last??? Or did they really???

 

[Ceicei]

Which direction do you want us to go with this thread? I can pretty much figure what you are saying and where you may be going, but when you suggest ideas with several tangents, it can be challenging to keep a discussion on a certain theme.

- Ceicei

 

[GAB]

Which direction do you want us to go with this thread? I can pretty much figure what you are saying and where you may be going, but when you suggest ideas with several tangents, it can be challenging to keep a discussion on a certain theme.

- Ceicei

Hi Ceicei,

No tangent, we (you and I ) about Buddha and the various names, Monks and MA. It is in China and we are heading to Okinawa and Japan, How long will that take, we have gotten there very quickly so I slowed it down...

Regardes, Gary

 

[The Kai]

IMHO - Most "temple" martial arts were actually disspossed generals of a losing battle that gave up thier worldy possesions, and name to continue to live. That is way the Triads call back to the temples as thier birth. The fighting monks were in many cases a "retired" general living within the temple walls.

Then the arts migrated south traveling thru the korean penisula, where they briefly flourished, founding such institutions as the Hwrang.
Todd