Karate Vs Boxing

[Andrew Green]

Rhee: http://www.passmoreselfdefense.com/HallOfFame/pics/jhoonrhee.jpg

Ali: http://posters.westbalkanonline.com/speedlist/SP0052 ALI Training.jpg

Side by side: http://masterrhee.com/images/photos/M.Rhee receives an Ali Sports Award.jpg

In comparrison with Ali, slightly built is about right...

 

[The Kai]

I tell you if you think that Rhee could knock out Ali I have a bridge to sell you

 

[eyebeams]

I tell you if you think that Rhee could knock out Ali I have a bridge to sell you

In the ring? No, of course it's not possible, because Ali was a better fighter. Was Rhee strong enough to knock Ali's block off? Yeah, he was. It would take some strange circumstances for Ali to ever allow that to happen.

Rhee's a small guy, but not "slight," really. His physical strength is well-documented.

Then again. given his politics, I'd be less afraid about him punching me than lobbying for a bombing campaign to get at my sweet, sweet oil.

 

[The Kai]

no respect to Rhee but Ali was the Heavyweight Champion when the title meant something. He fought Strong, tough fighters (frazier, Foreman, Liston). The Third fight with Frazier was as much mental, as well as physical strenght


Rhee invented musical forms, and a way to reduce contact at semi contact events

Do the Math

 

[Martin h]

There was a fight in the 70ies between a boxer and a karate guy (no idea what the names were). rules was that each could do what their rules allowed normaly. The karate guy immediately fell down on his knees and hand and stayed there, kicking circular kicks from the ground. The boxer could not retaliate -he could not punch a "downed" opponent. It was viewed as cowardly and strange, and was a bit of a scandal.
Moral of the story is: they are different and its hard to get a fair fight that wont give the edge to one side.

As for ufc1. no disrespect to the gracies, but they didnt exactly get world champion fighters in there to fight them. They didnt do works, but they stacked the decks as much as they possibly could. And Gordeau (kyokushin, not savate as many belive -although he had entered savate tournaments and won them) did ok until he faced Gracie.

As for boxers generaly being in better shape. True, but then karate and martial arts has always welcomed of those less physicaly fit in a way you seldom see in boxing. A pro karate fighter needs to be just as fit as a pro boxer. Not that there are as many pro karate guys as there are pro boxers (exept for a few K1 stars like Feitosa and Filho I know of no pro karate competitors) so amature level would be a better comparison.
Also the fighters develope their physique according to the needs of the sport. Point karate has different needs than knockdown karate, and different still from boxing. Who is in better shape: a elite boxer or a elite marathon runner? In better shape for what?

 

[searcher]

There was a fight in the 70ies between a boxer and a karate guy (no idea what the names were). rules was that each could do what their rules allowed normaly. The karate guy immediately fell down on his knees and hand and stayed there, kicking circular kicks from the ground. The boxer could not retaliate -he could not punch a "downed" opponent. It was viewed as cowardly and strange, and was a bit of a scandal.
Moral of the story is: they are different and its hard to get a fair fight that wont give the edge to one side.

As for ufc1. no disrespect to the gracies, but they didnt exactly get world champion fighters in there to fight them. They didnt do works, but they stacked the decks as much as they possibly could. And Gordeau (kyokushin, not savate as many belive -although he had entered savate tournaments and won them) did ok until he faced Gracie.

As for boxers generaly being in better shape. True, but then karate and martial arts has always welcomed of those less physicaly fit in a way you seldom see in boxing. A pro karate fighter needs to be just as fit as a pro boxer. Not that there are as many pro karate guys as there are pro boxers (exept for a few K1 stars like Feitosa and Filho I know of no pro karate competitors) so amature level would be a better comparison.
Also the fighters develope their physique according to the needs of the sport. Point karate has different needs than knockdown karate, and different still from boxing. Who is in better shape: a elite boxer or a elite marathon runner? In better shape for what?

You do make a very good point about the Gracies not getting world champions to face them, but they were also in the beginning stages and nobody really understood what was going on. It does help to show that you are the beast if you decide who you are going to prove it on.

 

[Danjo]

There was a fight in the 70ies between a boxer and a karate guy (no idea what the names were). rules was that each could do what their rules allowed normaly. The karate guy immediately fell down on his knees and hand and stayed there, kicking circular kicks from the ground. The boxer could not retaliate -he could not punch a "downed" opponent. It was viewed as cowardly and strange, and was a bit of a scandal.
Moral of the story is: they are different and its hard to get a fair fight that wont give the edge to one side.

As for ufc1. no disrespect to the gracies, but they didnt exactly get world champion fighters in there to fight them. They didnt do works, but they stacked the decks as much as they possibly could. And Gordeau (kyokushin, not savate as many belive -although he had entered savate tournaments and won them) did ok until he faced Gracie.

As for boxers generaly being in better shape. True, but then karate and martial arts has always welcomed of those less physicaly fit in a way you seldom see in boxing. A pro karate fighter needs to be just as fit as a pro boxer. Not that there are as many pro karate guys as there are pro boxers (exept for a few K1 stars like Feitosa and Filho I know of no pro karate competitors) so amature level would be a better comparison.
Also the fighters develope their physique according to the needs of the sport. Point karate has different needs than knockdown karate, and different still from boxing. Who is in better shape: a elite boxer or a elite marathon runner? In better shape for what?

I agree. Those using straight BJJ after the first few UFC contests got beat pretty regularly. Once solid strikers figured out how to sprawl and escape the BJJ crowd had to adapt their game by picking up striking skills. Looking at the likes of Chuck Liddel and how he tends to whip grapplers pretty soundly, it takes away from the invulnerability that BJJ used to claim. Helluva good martial art though. I took Gracie JJ for 6 months and it was awesome. Taught me a lot about grappling.

 

[eyebeams]

no respect to Rhee but Ali was the Heavyweight Champion when the title meant something. He fought Strong, tough fighters (frazier, Foreman, Liston). The Third fight with Frazier was as much mental, as well as physical strenght


Rhee invented musical forms, and a way to reduce contact at semi contact events

Do the Math

Rhee trained Ali, and Ali credited Rhee for it. I don't like the direction he took Taekwondo or martial arts in general, but Rhee himself came from the old school -- just like plenty of good martial artists who promoted didgy practices.

 

[The Kai]

Rhee trained Ali in what?? How to Box?

The fact that Rhee did'nt even met Ali, till after Ali changed his name shows that their meeting was a photo op. not a training sesson

 

[Danjo]

Rhee trained Ali, and Ali credited Rhee for it.

Where did Ali credit Rhee for training him?

 

[eyebeams]

Where did Ali credit Rhee for training him?

Pic of them training together:

http://masterrhee.com/images/photos/M.Rhee & Ali Sparring.jpg

Ali Quote from Rhee's site.

"Mr. Rhee taught me Tae Kwon Do Accu-Punch; it is so fast, you can hardly see it."

Now, to get back to what I meant in the first place:

1) No, I don't think Rhee could knock Ali out in the ring.

2) But Despite his role in padded point karate and such, Rhee was and is a legitimate martial artist, with significant physical strength.

3) Rhee trained Ali. From: http://tinyurl.com/7d33q

" Master Rhee taught the legendary Bruce Lee his kicking techniques, and
Bruce Lee taught him how to punch. Master Rhee then taught Muhammad Ali
what Ali later called his powerful ``Accu-punch.'' Ali used it in 1976
to knock out Bruce Denn in Munich and also in the Joe Frazier
heavyweight title bout."

 

[rupton]

The only one I'm aware of is the Ali and Inoki fight which has already been mentioned. There is also a video link to this fight on subfighter.com. Interestingly enough Inoki got in a couple of good digs and the fight was considered a draw. Here is another link to the event:

http://www.hotboxingnews.com/ticketsinoki.htm

 

[The Kai]

Pic of them training together:

http://masterrhee.com/images/photos/M.Rhee%20&%20Ali%20Sparring.jpg

Ali Quote from Rhee's site.

"Mr. Rhee taught me Tae Kwon Do Accu-Punch; it is so fast, you can hardly see it."

Now, to get back to what I meant in the first place:

1) No, I don't think Rhee could knock Ali out in the ring.

2) But Despite his role in padded point karate and such, Rhee was and is a legitimate martial artist, with significant physical strength.

3) Rhee trained Ali. From: http://tinyurl.com/7d33q

" Master Rhee taught the legendary Bruce Lee his kicking techniques, and
Bruce Lee taught him how to punch. Master Rhee then taught Muhammad Ali
what Ali later called his powerful ``Accu-punch.'' Ali used it in 1976
to knock out Bruce Denn in Munich and also in the Joe Frazier
heavyweight title bout."

I think the photo is more of a publicity stunt (one of Rhee's specalities), IMHO there two hints
1.) Ali is wearing gear, Rhee is not
2.) Rhee is not lying in a crumpled heap on the floor

Rhee met Ali long after Ali was (in)famous for his hand speed. Check the archives under "clay vs. Liston".
Rhee also awards alot of senators and other capital hill types Black belts, great photo opp, but lousy techniques. Rhee likes getting his picture taken

 

[Danjo]

In 1967, John Keehan, AKA "Count Dante" hosted the first full contact karate match in the USA. Rhee sent some of his black belts there and they got their tails kicked hard. Rhee then came out and said that the tournement etc. was a disgrace to karate etc. etc. ad nauseum. Point is, Rhee's students didn't know how to fight. Presumably, this was before he started watering his stuff down. Also, Ali didn't even knock Frasier down, so how did this so-called "Acu-Punch" work for him in that fight? I saw no TKD style punches in ANY of Ali's fights.

 

[The Kai]

"I saw no TKD style punches in ANY of Ali's fights"

Man, that's a funny image(imagine cosell's voice) one side of the ring Smoking Joe, arms crossed in front of his body, working the upper body movement, looking to land that fearsome Left hook. Wait Ali, what is he doing? He's dropping his right foot back,wayy back. Now he turning his shoulder away from smoking joe. It seems folks that Muhammid Ali has his right hand by his belt. Folks all the way from the cheap seats comes a right hand bomb from ali. It missed, it seems joe frazier is allready home and in bed by the time ali threw that punch

 

[Danjo]

"I saw no TKD style punches in ANY of Ali's fights"

Man, that's a funny image(imagine cosell's voice) one side of the ring Smoking Joe, arms crossed in front of his body, working the upper body movement, looking to land that fearsome Left hook. Wait Ali, what is he doing? He's dropping his right foot back,wayy back. Now he turning his shoulder away from smoking joe. It seems folks that Muhammid Ali has his right hand by his belt. Folks all the way from the cheap seats comes a right hand bomb from ali. It missed, it seems joe frazier is allready home and in bed by the time ali threw that punch

LOL! Too funny man!

 

[eyebeams]

In 1967, John Keehan, AKA "Count Dante" hosted the first full contact karate match in the USA. Rhee sent some of his black belts there and they got their tails kicked hard. Rhee then came out and said that the tournement etc. was a disgrace to karate etc. etc. ad nauseum. Point is, Rhee's students didn't know how to fight. Presumably, this was before he started watering his stuff down. Also, Ali didn't even knock Frasier down, so how did this so-called "Acu-Punch" work for him in that fight? I saw no TKD style punches in ANY of Ali's fights.

So the answer is that Muhammed Ali is a liar? Uh . . . reaching a tad, aren't we?

 

[eyebeams]

I think the photo is more of a publicity stunt (one of Rhee's specalities), IMHO there two hints
1.) Ali is wearing gear, Rhee is not
2.) Rhee is not lying in a crumpled heap on the floor

Rhee met Ali long after Ali was (in)famous for his hand speed. Check the archives under "clay vs. Liston".
Rhee also awards alot of senators and other capital hill types Black belts, great photo opp, but lousy techniques. Rhee likes getting his picture taken

Yes yes, you don't like him. I don't like him either, but that's utterly irrelevant. The fact that it was a photo-op doesn't matter much, either. There's a plethora of evidence that Rhee and Ali have had a lifelong association. If Rhee was claiming he did something for Ali that Ali didn't like, do you really think Muhammad Ali or nowadays, his representatives, would take it sitting down? Especially since it seems the two men actually see each other every couple of years?

 

[Ubermint]

In 1967, John Keehan, AKA "Count Dante" hosted the first full contact karate match in the USA. Rhee sent some of his black belts there and they got their tails kicked hard. Rhee then came out and said that the tournement etc. was a disgrace to karate etc. etc. ad nauseum. Point is, Rhee's students didn't know how to fight. Presumably, this was before he started watering his stuff down. Also, Ali didn't even knock Frasier down, so how did this so-called "Acu-Punch" work for him in that fight? I saw no TKD style punches in ANY of Ali's fights.

I find it hard to believe that this guy hosted the first full contact tournament in the states.

 

[The Kai]

Where did you get lifelong association?

There were a lot of people who had there pic taken with Ali, and tried to rub some of the fame onto themselves