Karate Vs Boxing

[SammyB57]

I've read before about matches between karate masters and boxers back in the old days (pre-1960). Does anyone have information on these matches, or on more modern type challenge matches?

Also, how has karate evolved since pre-1960?

 

[Autocrat]

I recal my father talking about the Karate champion and Muhamed Ali, ( I think it was him) going for the full 12 rounds.... karate guy got hit once or twice... the boxer got hit lots yet could take it!

Don't think theres been another... unless you include the MMA things on TV... they have boxers, K-Boxers, Tkd etc... usual naff fights... yet sometime you get interesting ones!

 

[Danjo]

The famous one was between Choki Motobu and Jan Kentel in reported in King magazine in 1925. motobu knocked the boxer out in the second round. Two things to consider here: 1) the Karate of Motobu was a good deal different than most modern Karate. It was designed for streetfighting and tested in the "red light districts" of Okinawa. 2) The boxing of that time looked substatially different than what we see on TV these days. They held their hands differently and moved differently than they do today. What the modern results would be would be interesting to see.


BTW, the Ali fight was with a Jiu Jitsu guy, not Karate. The proposed fight between Ali and Jim Kelly never came off.

 

[Karazenpo]

I recal my father talking about the Karate champion and Muhamed Ali, ( I think it was him) going for the full 12 rounds.... karate guy got hit once or twice... the boxer got hit lots yet could take it!

Don't think theres been another... unless you include the MMA things on TV... they have boxers, K-Boxers, Tkd etc... usual naff fights... yet sometime you get interesting ones!

This was the martial artist Ali fought:

Antonio Inoki
(b. 1943)

Real Name: Kanji Inoki
There are several different stories about the origin of his ring name "Antonio":
Named by Rikidozan after the legendary Antonio Rocca.
Given a popular first name in Brazil in order to be pushed as a nisei from Brazil.
Named after Antonius.

Nickname: Moeru Toukon (Fighting Spirit That Burns)
Birth: Feburary 20th, 1943 in Yokohama, Japan
Debut: loses to Kintaro Ohki on September 30th, 1960 in Tokyo
Organizations: JWA (60 - 66) -
Tokyo Pro (66 - 67) -
JWA (67 - 71)
New Japan (72 - 98)
Retirement: defeats Don Frye on April 4th, 1998 in Tokyo
Titles: NWA Texas Heavyweight
NWA World Tag Team (Texas)
NWA World Tag Team (Tennessee)
All Asia Tag Team [4]
NWA International Tag Team [4]
NWA United National Heavyweight
"Real" World Heavyweight
NWF (World) Heavyweight [4]
NWA North American Tag Team [2]
WWF World Martial Arts Heavyweight [2]
WWF Heavyweight
UWA World Heavyweight
IWGP Heavyweight

Pictures: Giant Baba & Antonio Inoki -True Legends of Puroresu
with Lou Thesz in 1975 (Courtesy of the Canvas Cavity with Dr. Mike Lano)
Antonio Inoki vs. Muhammad Ali
Seiji Sakaguchi, Akira Maeda, Anotnio Inoki, and Yoshiaki Fujiwara at the New Japan Pro-Wrestling 20th Anniversary Party
North Korean Postal Stamps of Antonio Inoki and Rikidozan (Courtesy of the Puroresu Village)

Links: Official Site
Antonio Inoki Home Page - TDC Wrestling Club
"My Unforgettable Experiences" by Dory Funk Jr. (in Japanese)
W.W.E. Hall of Fame: Andre the Giant

Inducted to W.C.W. Hall of Fame on 1995


Regardless what the younger generation of puroresu fans say, without Antonio Inoki, the post-Rikidozan puroresu would never been accepted as a "sport" by general public in Japan. Even today, there are many martial art fighters who started training after being inspired by Antonio Inoki's matches.

With "King of Sports" and "civil rights for puroresu" as his mottos, Inoki started New Japan Pro-Wrestling in 1972. Since then, he had put his effort to prove that the pro-wrestling is the strongest sport and to raise the status of the sport in the general public in Japan. It's just hard to describe his never ending dreams in right words, especially when his past achievements include things like :

having a number of mixed matches against the great fighters of other sports including Willem Ruska (judo gold medalist in the Olympic games in Munich), Muhammad Ali (world boxing champion), Chuck Wepner (whose career Rocky is said to be based on), and Willie Williams (world karate champion),
promoting the first/rare pro-wrestling cards in Taiwan, China, and Soviet Union,
being the first pro-wrestler in the world to be elected as a congressman of a country,
having meetings with the politicians whom the officials from western/democratic nations have rarely met, such as the Hussein family of Iraq and Fidel Castro of Cuba, and
promoting the first two pro-wrestling cards in North Korea with the world record crowd of approximately 150,000 and 190,000.
After his retirement in 1998, Inoki has continued to produce interpromotional matches with MMA organizations such as K-1 and PRIDE to keep the tradition of fighting spirit that New Japan Pro-Wrestling seems to have lost.

 

[JAMJTX]

I was told a story of a time when Jhoon Rhee, the Tae Kwon Do teacher knocked Muhammad Ali out.
It was at Rhee's school in D.C.

 

[Andrew Green]

The famous one was between Choki Motobu and Jan Kentel in reported in King magazine in 1925. motobu knocked the boxer out in the second round. Two things to consider here

And one more, they thought he studied Judo and he wasn't allowed to punch (hence the open hand strike) so there is also a good chance the boxer wasn't expecting him to hit back at all, just try and throw him.

 

[Andrew Green]

I was told a story of a time when Jhoon Rhee, the Tae Kwon Do teacher knocked Muhammad Ali out.
It was at Rhee's school in D.C.

Unfortunately stories are just that, stories. Without some facts to back them up they don't carry much weight.

Granted most stories have some basis in truth, but they are most often skewed.


Boxing and Karate are governed by different rules. Who would win would likely depend as much on rules as anything else. Who would win, a basketball player or a football player? Well are they playing Basketball? Football? or maybe Hockey in which case it will likely be a mess...

 

[Autocrat]

Good answer there!

I believe the rules for the ali fight was simply contact, without gouges, breaks etc.... standard stuff to be safe.

Much like moden fights today.

Just glad no one has posted anything stupid like... "just take his legs out".... ever fought a boxer? IT HURTS! They can take a hell of a beating, really dish it out, and are willing to get up and do it all again!

Golden rule... never fight a boxer, dancer or fencer.... all are fast, fit and hurt like hell when they hit you!

 

[hardheadjarhead]

I was told a story of a time when Jhoon Rhee, the Tae Kwon Do teacher knocked Muhammad Ali out.
It was at Rhee's school in D.C.

I wouldn't bet your life on it...much less your paycheck.

Ali was such a controversial figure that had that happened, we would have heard about it. His detractors would have been all over that.

Besides, if Kenny Norton, Joe Frazier, Sonny Liston and George Foreman couldn't do it...I seriously doubt a short and sleight of build Korean is going to do it. Ali weighed 217 in fighting trim and could take an incredible punch (and indeed, took many and survived).

I'm confident it didn't happen.


Regards,


Steve

 

[Danjo]

I wouldn't bet your life on it...much less your paycheck.

Ali was such a controversial figure that had that happened, we would have heard about it. His detractors would have been all over that.

Besides, if Kenny Norton, Joe Frazier, Sonny Liston and George Foreman couldn't do it...I seriously doubt a short and sleight of build Korean is going to do it. Ali weighed 217 in fighting trim and could take an incredible punch (and indeed, took many and survived).

I'm confident it didn't happen.


Regards,


Steve

No it did not happen. But they are friends and did spar with each other.

 

[DRMiller]

Classical fighthing arts magazine had an article about this subject in it's last issue. They were matches in the 20's held in Hawaii if my memory serves me correctly.

 

[madfrank]

There is no credible verified account of a boxer being bested by a martial artist but there are lots of fabrifications and myths which says a lot IMNSHO

Madfrank

 

[DRMiller]

Check it out for yourself, Classical Fighting Arts Issue #5, Page 25 Ju Jitsu vs Wrestling and Boxing. References to documented Newspaper articles, pictures of handbills and posters of the events and a reference to Choki Motobu's defeat of George (or Jan) Kentel and European boxer in 1921.

 

[Andrew Green]

There is no credible verified account of a boxer being bested by a martial artist

Sure there are, go rent UFC 1.

or does BJJ not count as Martial Arts?

A few boxers entered early UFC's, and the ones that only knew boxing didn't do so well....

On average Boxers are in better shape, better conditioned and can take more punishment then the point fighting martial artists with the foam gloves and slippers. No one will doubt that.

But that is one rather broad statement, not many boxers would last long in a MMA ring against a competitive MMA fighter, they don't have ther skills.

Same reason all those top NHL Players can't just play basketball or football durring the lockout, completely different games.

In a point fighting match boxers won't do well...

PS - Does anyone else find it funny that Ali is the only one wearing gloves / boots? I think that says something right there

 

[The Kai]

I think it more a publicity shot than anything else, btw ali and rhee

 

[thepanjr]

i know this article that had a guy beat up a boxer with a open handed move

 

[bignick]

i know this article that had a guy beat up a boxer with a open handed move

Where was the article?


anyway...wasn't there a hyped up televised match during the 60's between a karate point fighter and a boxer. The karateka scored some good shots but then pretty much got whumped because he was out of shape. Well, at least not in the same fighting shape as the boxer. Andrew was right, a boxer, on average is gonna be in a lot better shape than your average striking artist (myself included).

 

[pnoy_kickfighter]

Good answer there!

I believe the rules for the ali fight was simply contact, without gouges, breaks etc.... standard stuff to be safe.

Much like moden fights today.

Just glad no one has posted anything stupid like... "just take his legs out".... ever fought a boxer? IT HURTS! They can take a hell of a beating, really dish it out, and are willing to get up and do it all again!

Golden rule... never fight a boxer, dancer or fencer.... all are fast, fit and hurt like hell when they hit you!

No offense but if I had to fight one I simply woulndt back out

 

[Blindside]

There is no credible verified account of a boxer being bested by a martial artist but there are lots of fabrifications and myths which says a lot IMNSHO

Madfrank

How about Gene Lebell and Milo Savage?

 

[eyebeams]

I wouldn't bet your life on it...much less your paycheck.

Ali was such a controversial figure that had that happened, we would have heard about it. His detractors would have been all over that.

Besides, if Kenny Norton, Joe Frazier, Sonny Liston and George Foreman couldn't do it...I seriously doubt a short and sleight of build Korean is going to do it. Ali weighed 217 in fighting trim and could take an incredible punch (and indeed, took many and survived).

I'm confident it didn't happen.


Regards,


Steve

I don't buy it either, but:

1) Ali actually trained with Rhee.

2) Jhoon Rhee was not just a "slightly built Korean." The last time I read anything about him in '95 or so, he kept to a regimen that included 1000 pushups, and as a senior citizen, was ripped. I would have no desire to be on the other end of him in his prime.