Karate sparring with a mix of wolf boxing

Discussion in 'Karate' started by Christopher Adamchek, Jul 1, 2019.

  1. Christopher Adamchek

    Christopher Adamchek Blue Belt

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    Our first Okami Karate Dojo video, and seeing as how Okami means 'wolf' we mixed in wolf boxing kung fu techniques with our karate sparring.

    Basic strategy of wolf boxing:
    Developed by Buddhist nuns who had grown up with foot binding prior to living in the temples. Utilizes upper body conditioning. Low fighting stances, between the ground and standing. Attacks from and to uncommon areas, such as punching the leg. A fluid ease of transitioning to the ground to wrap and attack the opponents legs to bring them down.
     
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  2. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    I like wolf boxing,that's really good
     
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  3. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Interesting. I hadn't heard of wolf boxing before.

    Would you be interested in some technical feedback on the leg entanglements/takedowns? That happens to be an area where I have a reasonable amount of expertise.
     
  4. Christopher Adamchek

    Christopher Adamchek Blue Belt

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    Sure thing
     
  5. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Okay, cool. I don't want to be the person who jumps in with a bunch of unwanted critique. For purpose of this commentary, I'm assuming you're the person executing the takedowns. If not, change the following "you"s to "he"s.

    (For reference, my understanding of leg entanglements & takedowns comes primarily from 20+ years in BJJ and using them in sparring with everyone from karateka to capoeristas to wing chun practitioners to pro MMA fighters.)

    The most important concept when using these techniques is making sure that you have control of your opponents distance. From the very start of the technique you need at least one frame keeping them from getting too close (so they don't squash or bypass your legs, get mounted on you, or start punching you in the face) and at least one hook keeping them from just pulling away and disengaging. The frame is more important, because having them getting away is better then having them on tp of you punching your face in.

    You do okay with establishing your hooks, but on every single entry you take at least a second or two to get your frames in place. Against someone who knows what they're doing or even someone with good natural instincts, that will get you mounted and punched in the face repeatedly.

    At 10s and 39s in the video you get up after sweeping your opponent with a backwards roll. This is too slow. If the person you just swept knows what they are doing they will be back to their feet before you are. You do a better job coming up to control after your takedowns at 1m4s and 1m49s. I'd recommend you add a BJJ style technical standup to your repertoire for maximum speed and safety when getting up. If you intend to follow up the attack (as opposed to fleeing), you can control your opponent's feet while performing the technical standup to prevent them from getting up at the same time.

    For the tomoe nage at 28s, you'll want to scoot your butt in closer to your opponent as you sit for the throw. If your opponent has a good base and you sit down as far out as you did, it's easy for him to stuff the throw.

    Be careful about shooting in with your head down and your eyes on the mat. It's a good way to get choked, kneed, or face-planted. This is a really common problem. Even pro fighters will do it sometimes in the heat of a fight when they get tired. If you train that way when you're doing a slow flow sparring session like this, you'll definitely end up doing it in a real fight.

    For the takedown at 1m21s you're using one arm to control and pull down both his legs. That's not enough control. If he had any kind of decent base he would end up in mount or at least top half guard where he could beat on you. Even assuming his base was really bad, you end up just laying next to him punching his legs. You need to transition to a top position so you can control him or disengage.

    At 1m39s I like the transition from low punches to single leg takedown. However after you pass his open guard you end up falling to your back for no good reason. The whole point of passing his legs is so you can control your opponent. If you flop over like that he's going to end up on top of you dropping down elbows.

    At 1m49s the final sweep only works because your partner steps in with zero base, literally putting his feet and knees together so you can easily twist him around and over. You don't want your sparring partners doing that because you'll get a lot of false positives about what works. You don't want to just be able to take down klutzes. You want to be able to take down people who have good balance. Remind your partner to keep a solid base so you can learn what really works.
     
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  6. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

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    Dropping down to punch the legs like that will get your head punted or punched off. You are basically gift wrapping yourself to get flattened.
     
  7. Christopher Adamchek

    Christopher Adamchek Blue Belt

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    @Tony Dismukes

    Thank for the input Tony. I am the one doing the take downs.

    Frame sounds weird for that but i get it. So it would be frame, hook, takedown, frame? and your saying my frame on the ground is lacking?
    I could see that, but the takedown entry ideally puts them in an awkward struggle taking them a second or so to adjust.

    The backwards roll is the traditional get up from these techniques for a few reasons. Keeping in mind the foot binding it surprisingly an easier way to get your feet under you and continue. Also the takedowns assume they fall and break/strain a wrist and or nose because of the way their legs are tied up and falling forward (which is sound, people often put their hands out from this position rather than hitting with the whole forearm).

    Solid point on tomoe nage.

    This style of shooting is again based on loss of footing from things like foot binding, the idea is to make just a full commitment to attacking the leg. Maybe not the best but certainly not the worst.

    I can see what you mean with 1m21s. I hugged one leg, and started punching it, and grabbed both and twisted once he stepped in while punching the leg. Its surprising how much beating on their knee distracts the opponent. Which is the real strategy here, punching the leg, without that it would be a different story.

    1m39s i did fumble on that one, i shorted that segment cause i hit his head decently with my shoulder and it was awkward.

    1m49s again, wailing on someones legs changes the way that they move and theyll likely give up certain defenses

    I hope this helps with insight to this strategy. Im not claiming either of our ground game is amazing, im decent, but have much to learn. The big thing is the full force unorthodox attack the the legs and the opportunities it opens up.
     
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  8. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

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    I'm wasn't familiar with Wolf boxing either. This is one of the reasons I love this place.

    Keep up the good work, Chris. And take Tony's notes.

    And, bro, that is one nice dojo. Great light in there. Great light always made me train better for some reason.
     
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  9. wab25

    wab25 Black Belt

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    In DZR, the kata for the triangle choke is for tori to throw tomoe nage, uke stuffs the throw, then tori inserts the leg up around the neck and applies the triangle choke. Its a great way to teach the triangle choke position and where all your limbs need to be in relation to the other guy... but I have never pulled it off in randori, in that fashion. However, if you throw uke, tomoe nage for real it forces them to counter for real. This becomes a great drill for developing your tomoe nage. When the other guy knows what you are doing and is preventing it... if you are still able to get the throw, you have something. The trick is what Tony mentioned, get your butt closer. I aim to get my butt through and behind uke's feet... I never got that far, but I still intend to. The thing is, you can pull with your arms and push with your foot as hard as you want, if they drop their base... nothing will work... except getting your hips under theirs. I try to step in with my left foot between uke's feet (a little behind if I can) then sit, bringing my butt to my foot, while inserting the right foot into their hips.

    When I go to other DZR dojos and seminars, its fun to work on the triangle choke. I ask, "How do you guys it?" The answer is always "First, I counter your tomoe nage, then you apply the choke." I tell them "Ok, I am going to throw you tomoe nage, you counter." I then throw them tomoe nage. They get up surprised that I actually threw them. "No really, I am going to throw you, you need to counter." This is great because you learn to really stuff that throw as uke and you learn what you really need to do to pull tomoe nage off. Finish with whatever you want when they do counter... which is not a bad drill either.

    This is what really helped me with my tomoe nage. Hope it helps! (make sure uke can take the fall)
     
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  10. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    It's frame, hook (or ideally both at the same time), takedown, then get up or to a top control position as quickly and safely as possible.
    Do some sparring with wrestlers, jiujiteiros, judoka, samboists, or MMA fighters and you'll find that they can adjust to those entries and crush you really, really quickly if you don't have some sort of frame to control the distance as you come in. You don't get a second or two before they react.

    I'm pretty good with a backwards roll. Trust me, it's not as fast as some of the alternatives.

    That can certainly happen, but I don't think it's a good idea to just train for best case scenarios. If you train for the guys who bounce right back to their feet like a rubber ball, then you can be pleasantly surprised when you take someone down and they stay there. On the other hand if you train assuming your opponent is going to be hurt and slow after the first takedown, you may be in for an unpleasant shock when you sweep them and find they're immediately back on top of you.

    For the takedown at 1m39s your low strikes opened up a legitimate takedown opportunity. For the one at 1m49s you slapped at his legs a couple of times, then dragged his gi, sat back on the ground and pulled him forward. At the point when you pulled and he stepped forward with his feet together like a klutz, there was no more threat to his legs from your strikes. He just didn't understand how to keep his base with someone dragging him forward and down. Lots of people will have a much better idea of how to move with a good base - not just trained martial artists and grapplers, but plenty of athletes and people who just have good natural instincts. Train for those guys. (Also, you don't want your student to be stumbling and off balance any time someone pulls on him like that. He should be learning how to maintain a strong foundation.)
     
  11. Headhunter

    Headhunter Senior Master

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    Was going ti say that. Plus the fact a punch to the leg isn't really going to do a lot considering how small a hand is compared to the whole leg
     
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  12. Christopher Adamchek

    Christopher Adamchek Blue Belt

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    @Tony Dismukes

    You have solid points, some ive known and others id like to improve on. But i feel like youre missing that this is a sort of short cut strategy fighting style based on having physical foot disabilities. The backwards roll isnt for speed, its for getting to you knees and feet with a painful disability, and going backwards is a decent way to do that. And i dont train for best case scenario, but this style does make certain assumptions and hopes in implementing its strategy, which is what I am showing.
     
  13. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I may be missing something, but I'm not sure how a backwards roll to the feet would be easier for someone with damaged feet than a technical standup would be. Can you clarify?
     
  14. Christopher Adamchek

    Christopher Adamchek Blue Belt

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    Have you tried it? cause it can, and it adds an oddity of fear (can always transition to the groin) that changes things.
     
  15. Christopher Adamchek

    Christopher Adamchek Blue Belt

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    @Tony Dismukes

    Sure thing. From for example the but kick takedown from the back, its a decent bit of work to move your legs and feet back, over, and around their legs to find a place to put them and then get them under you from sitting on your butt. Where as rolling back gives you a clear space to put them and you get to put weight on your knees easily before standing. I hope ive explained that clearly enough.
     
  16. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    I’ve not heard of wolf boxing (Kung fu) before. The history you give it raises some questions in my mind about how and to whom it would make sense to pass it along.

    A method designed to work around a disability (footbinding) seems to me to make sense for those who have that disability. If it was taught to a new generation of people who have suffered footbinding, that would make sense to me. Their movement would be impaired and they would be taught to compensate in a reasonable way.

    I don’t understand the motivation to teach it to people who have not suffered through footbinding and do not have the impaired movement that would result. The methods used to overcome the disability are bound to be less efficient and less effective than methods available to people who do not have the disability.

    It sounds to me like a case of teaching a method for the sake of posterity, but no longer in a context that completely makes sense.

    I remember hearing of some students of an old capoeira master who could no longer move as well in his old age. He was quite accomplished in his ability, but age had taken a price.

    His students studied under him in his old age, and they moved as he moved: like an old man. But they were young men.

    People need to move to their best ability, not in imitation of a disability that they do not have or the difficulties of an old age they have not yet attained.
     
  17. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    I found this link for a school in Denver area, wolf style king fu.

    Wolf Kung Fu | Rare Martial Art

    It tells a different history of the system, is your lineage connected to them?
     
  18. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    Ok, I found this in Wikepedia, their history of Dog Boxing makes reference to the nuns and footbinding.

    Dog Kung Fu - Wikipedia
     
  19. Christopher Adamchek

    Christopher Adamchek Blue Belt

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    @Flying Crane

    I would definitely assume chunks of it were preserved for posterity sake. And is likely to fall into the scenario of your capoeria story. Again this isnt my "go to" techniques though i do love punching peoples legs. It can be useful strategy under scenarios such as teaching people with disabilities, giving people a sort of "short cut" strategy to fighting, or recovering from blunders. And other aspects of wolf boxing (not all shown) are still useful.
     
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  20. Christopher Adamchek

    Christopher Adamchek Blue Belt

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    @Flying Crane

    Im aware of both and have no direct lineage to either. I dug more into the one on the nuns, as my fiancee has some disabilities. I did some reading and watched some videos, and trained to put them into action (which was definately a bit awkward and interesting lol)123
     
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