"karate is back!"

[Silentwarrior702]

I was happy to see Machida obtain his victory over Rashad Evans last night. I hope this will open the door for more traditional arts to get into MMA and do well. It's been far too long that traditional arts have been downgraded in the sport of MMA. Now we have four champion fighters in the sport which are doing extremley well. Those being Machida (Shotokahn Karate),George Saint Pierre (Kyushokin Ki Karate), Anderson Silva (Muay Thai) and the phenomenol Cung Li (San Shao Kung Fu). All the best to them!

 

[terryl965]

Was Karate ever gone really?

 

[Omar B]

No, karate was never gone. MMA people who wanna learn over the weekend and think they have a grasp of a fighting system may talk crap because it takes a ::gasp:: commitment to totally understand and use the system. It's just like a lot of this RBSD that they sell to people, quick, easy to learn and in some cases devastating but most of the time it's all bluster and little depth.

 

[Tez3]

Was Karate ever gone really?

No! You're correct.

Silentwarrior, MMA fighters don't fight 'karate' nor do they fight any other style other than Mixed Martial Arts. It's what it says it is.

Most of the fighters I know have a TMA as a core style, traditional styles haven't been downgraded in MMA at all, what on earth do people think they are doing. . .playing hockey? No they are using tradtional styles of fighting only mixing them to produce all round skills.
Traditional styles used in MMA and please feel free to add..karate, TKD, TSD, Judo, MT, Aikido, juijitsu (both Japanese and Brazilian), CMAs.

You may want to extend the list of TMA people who have done well to include people like Bas Rutten etc.

 

[Silentwarrior702]

No! You're correct.

Silentwarrior, MMA fighters don't fight 'karate' nor do they fight any other style other than Mixed Martial Arts. It's what it says it is.

Most of the fighters I know have a TMA as a core style, traditional styles haven't been downgraded in MMA at all, what on earth do people think they are doing. . .playing hockey? No they are using tradtional styles of fighting only mixing them to produce all round skills.
Traditional styles used in MMA and please feel free to add..karate, TKD, TSD, Judo, MT, Aikido, juijitsu (both Japanese and Brazilian), CMAs.

You may want to extend the list of TMA people who have done well to include people like Bas Rutten etc.

True there were more traditionalists that have fought in MMA (Bas Rutten is an excellent exampleof one who did very well) but a lot of others didn't do very good . Possibly because they weren't using there art or maybe even set up.In the early days of the UFC I saw too many traditionalists being mauled early in the fight so I question where they got there credentials.This included a Wing Chun stylists and a so called "Pa Kua slammer" who tapped out from one punch form Don Frye even though he bragged about being in over 400 street fights.Both of these styles of martial arts are great but who were there fights with to get into the UFC? There 10 year old brother? In the early days of the UFC there was a extremely large amount of fighters using many many different styles. A lot of people forget about Keith (the giant killer) Hackney. Who used his Shaolin Kenpo very well to be victorious that was over a Sumo practioner that was 300 pounds heavier than him. Also not forget shotokahn stylist Howard Harold who had the oportunity to fight Royce Gracie until....supposivley gased out from his fight with Kimo.Also there was a Ninjitsu practioner that did extremley well in the early days. Not to also mention preying mantis and Silat styliststhat made it to the finals but were never shown.Why was this? Now fast forward to the new days of MMA..... living in Vegas it's everywhere. Some guys haven'tdon't even a martial arts background at all and are in there mid 20's have been training MMA for a year or so and believe they will be the next UFC superstar.Yet they will put down kartae and kung fu using them as generic terms for martial arts.You would be suprised how many MMA guys say I have heard say that the traditional arts are gone. But I have seen two new tradionalists in the sport. One being an American Kenpo stylists and another JKD. But the Kenpo guy was not using Kenpo it looked more like he was trying to fight MMA with there rules. The JKD guy was doing good until he got taken to the ground.Who could you actually use these styles with the new rules? Another problem faced is the McDojo. Too many of them giving away black belts like candy. As far as BJJ being a martial art....I was told very professionally by an owner of a BJJ school whio was in partner with a guy that trains and taps out Frank Mir that they train "sport Jiu-Jitsu". I am not trying to downgrade the sport of MMA or ANY traditional styles but it's very unfortunate that these days at least in las Vegas many people are just handing down black belts so many guys are looking only MMA (which was called by Dana White Muay Thai, Boxing,Wrestling, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu)as the answer. As for the title of my thread it was only a quote from Machida after he recieved his very well deserved win.

 

[Tez3]

True there were more traditionalists that have fought in MMA (Bas Rutten is an excellent exampleof one who did very well) but a lot of others didn't do very good . Possibly because they weren't using there art or maybe even set up.In the early days of the UFC I saw too many traditionalists being mauled early in the fight so I question where they got there credentials.This included a Wing Chun stylists and a so called "Pa Kua slammer" who tapped out from one punch form Don Frye even though he bragged about being in over 400 street fights.Both of these styles of martial arts are great but who were there fights with to get into the UFC? There 10 year old brother? In the early days of the UFC there was a extremely large amount of fighters using many many different styles. A lot of people forget about Keith (the giant killer) Hackney. Who used his Shaolin Kenpo very well to be victorious that was over a Sumo practioner that was 300 pounds heavier than him. Also not forget shotokahn stylist Howard Harold who had the oportunity to fight Royce Gracie until....supposivley gased out from his fight with Kimo.Also there was a Ninjitsu practioner that did extremley well in the early days. Not to also mention preying mantis and Silat styliststhat made it to the finals but were never shown.Why was this? Now fast forward to the new days of MMA..... living in Vegas it's everywhere. Some guys haven'tdon't even a martial arts background at all and are in there mid 20's have been training MMA for a year or so and believe they will be the next UFC superstar.Yet they will put down kartae and kung fu using them as generic terms for martial arts.You would be suprised how many MMA guys say I have heard say that the traditional arts are gone. But I have seen two new tradionalists in the sport. One being an American Kenpo stylists and another JKD. But the Kenpo guy was not using Kenpo it looked more like he was trying to fight MMA with there rules. The JKD guy was doing good until he got taken to the ground.Who could you actually use these styles with the new rules? Another problem faced is the McDojo. Too many of them giving away black belts like candy. As far as BJJ being a martial art....I was told very professionally by an owner of a BJJ school whio was in partner with a guy that trains and taps out Frank Mir that they train "sport Jiu-Jitsu". I am not trying to downgrade the sport of MMA or ANY traditional styles but it's very unfortunate that these days at least in las Vegas many people are just handing down black belts so many guys are looking only MMA (which was called by Dana White Muay Thai, Boxing,Wrestling, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu)as the answer. As for the title of my thread it was only a quote from Machida after he recieved his very well deserved win.

This gets back to my argument that the UFC is not MMA! UFC is only one promotion though admittedly a high profile one. Everything you have quoted is UFC!
There are a great many other promotions out there and there's a great many MMA fighters too!
The UFC is a promotion that MMA fighters go on, MMA has been around a lot longer than the UFC. Brazialn juijitsu likewise, I would suggest actually that BJJ was the saving of UFC, it would have run out of steam without it.

 

[Andrew Green]

I was happy to see Machida obtain his victory over Rashad Evans last night. I hope this will open the door for more traditional arts to get into MMA and do well. It's been far too long that traditional arts have been downgraded in the sport of MMA. Now we have four champion fighters in the sport which are doing extremley well. Those being Machida (Shotokahn Karate),George Saint Pierre (Kyushokin Ki Karate), Anderson Silva (Muay Thai) and the phenomenol Cung Li (San Shao Kung Fu). All the best to them!

Karate never really went anywhere.

That said, these guys are exceptions, the way they train their karate is not the way most people doing karate train. They train as professional fighters, and cross train heavily. That is what makes the difference.

Karate, boxing, Muay thai, etc. That doesn't matter, what matters is how you train it.

 

[dnovice]

this why I always "it's not style rather its the martial artist that is good or not." I respect every style. They can all be used to fight; some are just more difficult to use and also take a huge commitment to master.

 

[Tez3]

Karate never really went anywhere.

That said, these guys are exceptions, the way they train their karate is not the way most people doing karate train. They train as professional fighters, and cross train heavily. That is what makes the difference.

Karate, boxing, Muay thai, etc. That doesn't matter, what matters is how you train it.

Quoted for truth!
As I've said before karate is often seen in MMA, just that 'lay' people don't recognise it from the Karate Kid type they are used to seeing.

 

[yorkshirelad]

This gets back to my argument that the UFC is not MMA! UFC is only one promotion though admittedly a high profile one. Everything you have quoted is UFC!
There are a great many other promotions out there and there's a great many MMA fighters too!
The UFC is a promotion that MMA fighters go on, MMA has been around a lot longer than the UFC. Brazialn juijitsu likewise, I would suggest actually that BJJ was the saving of UFC, it would have run out of steam without it.

BJJ was the cause of UFC AND the saving. It was created by Rorian Gracie initially to show the superiority of BJJ to other systems.

MMA has indeed been around alot longer than the UFC, the Kajukembo guys in the US have always had their fight clubs, then there's JKD and the X-kans who trace their roots in mixed martial arts to almost a thousand years.

UFC brought MMA out of the shodows and into the mainstream. If Machida stays on top of his game in the near future, It will be curious to see how many new Karate franchise studios open up in SoCal. Now we have almost every kind of studio offering BJJ classes. I wonder how many BJJ studios will now offer traditional Karate classes.

The truth is that Traditional Karate has always been an integral component in MMA. It's nice to see it recognised once again.

 

[Silentwarrior702]

This gets back to my argument that the UFC is not MMA! UFC is only one promotion though admittedly a high profile one. Everything you have quoted is UFC!
There are a great many other promotions out there and there's a great many MMA fighters too!
The UFC is a promotion that MMA fighters go on, MMA has been around a lot longer than the UFC. Brazilian jiu jitsu likewise, I would suggest actually that BJJ was the saving of UFC, it would have run out of steam without it.

Which organizations are you talking about? I remember in PRIDE there were more traditionalists. I have also seen early videos from King Of The Cage, Gladiator Challenge,Ring Of Fire and others. I'm sure there there are many other organizations out there but who are they?

 

[terryl965]

OK folks before somebody blows a head gasket, remember we are talking Karate.

 

[Silentwarrior702]

OK folks before somebody blows a head gasket, remember we are talking Karate.

Fair enough...

 

[Tez3]

Which organizations are you talking about? I remember in PRIDE there were more traditionalists. I have also seen early videos from King Of The Cage, Gladiator Challenge,Ring Of Fire and others. I'm sure there there are many other organizations out there but who are they?

Google is your friend you know.

It would be good if karate was taught everywhere as it should be not a watered down 'dancing' kata and tippy tappy sparring type of stuff.
Thank goodness there's still some who teach it 'old' style.

 

[Sandwich]

It's pretty cool to see a talented mixed martial artist who's main style is Karate. Of course, Machida also trains Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Wrestling, and works with muay thai trainers occasionally.

I see Lyoto keeping his title for awhile, he's a very talented fighter.

I have to mention though, Georges St. Pierre hasn't trained Karate in 12 years.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Was Karate ever gone really?

No. People thought that if they ignored it long enough that it would go away.

Surprise!

Daniel

 

[Steve]

This gets back to my argument that the UFC is not MMA! UFC is only one promotion though admittedly a high profile one. Everything you have quoted is UFC!
There are a great many other promotions out there and there's a great many MMA fighters too!
The UFC is a promotion that MMA fighters go on, MMA has been around a lot longer than the UFC. Brazialn juijitsu likewise, I would suggest actually that BJJ was the saving of UFC, it would have run out of steam without it.

Tez, I'm usually right there with you in all things MMA, but I think that trying to tie modern MMA to pancrase is tenuous. While the idea of fighting at multiple ranges in competition isn't new, modern MMA is a relatively well defined ruleset that... yes... started with the UFC.

It was in the early 2000's when the UFC applied to the Nevada Gaming Commission to hold a sanctioned event and it was approved using rules that had been developed loosely in, IIRC, New Jersey. These rules and this sanctioned event SAVED MMA as a sport. And, like it or not, the Ultimate Fighter as a reality series on free TV, was largely responsible for the strong international growth of the sport in it's modern form.

I know that there were organizations like Pride and the Pancrase events, as well as Vale Tudo outside of the USA, but if we're talking about the modern sport of MMA, we're talking about the UFC and the smaller promotions attempting to either compete with (and failing) or share in the popularity of the sport. King of the Cage, Pre-Zuffa WEC, Pride, K1 etc are making money largely because of the UFC.

Now, I'm not saying MMA was invented by the UFC. What I am saying is that MMA came about as a financially viable, well defined sport when the UFC applied for and was granted licensing in the state of Nevada to hold the first sanctioned event.

This is all from memory, so if I've got things mixed up, please let me know.

 

[Kenpo1981]

I for one am a big fan of MMA. I was a big boxing fan, but MMA has so much more to offer a fan. I've been a martial artist for many years and kickboxed before the UFC stuff came along...DANG IT! I would have loved to do MMA in those younger years.

I'm happy to see how MMA has evolved since it started here in the U.S. With the rules MMA uses it has lent itself to wrestlers, boxers, and jui jitsu guys. The door has been open for the "karate" guys as well. A few good ones have done very well that have been mentioned in this thread. However, from my many years of experience I feel that most "karate" schools don't do near enough hard contact to prepare their guys for this MMA stuff. They do great "air karate", but that's just not enough.

If a "karate" practioner adjusts his technique to fit the MMA rules and gets in the hard contact training, and the conditioning then they can be very formidable. The "karate" guys give some different angles and movement than most MMA fighters do. The "karate" guys have to be able to do and defend against the other guys moves though. MMA has proven the well-rounded guy has the best chance.

I think we need to keep in mind that MMA is not real fighting, it's an athletic contest and it is indeed martial. Some of their moves will get you really hurt on the street. But then a good MMA fighter should work on adapting it to street use as well. Against most traditional martial artists I would bet on the MMA guy in a street fight due to real contact experience and the conditioning.

I applaud the "karate" guys who have adapted and make it look good. My meaning behind putting "karate" in quotes is simply that the word has become very generic in America. If you have just Tae Kwon Do or Kenpo, or Hapkido on your sign most people still don't know what that is. Add the word karate to the end and people understand what you are advertising.

 

[Tez3]

I for one am a big fan of MMA. I was a big boxing fan, but MMA has so much more to offer a fan. I've been a martial artist for many years and kickboxed before the UFC stuff came along...DANG IT! I would have loved to do MMA in those younger years.

I'm happy to see how MMA has evolved since it started here in the U.S. With the rules MMA uses it has lent itself to wrestlers, boxers, and jui jitsu guys. The door has been open for the "karate" guys as well. A few good ones have done very well that have been mentioned in this thread. However, from my many years of experience I feel that most "karate" schools don't do near enough hard contact to prepare their guys for this MMA stuff. They do great "air karate", but that's just not enough.

If a "karate" practioner adjusts his technique to fit the MMA rules and gets in the hard contact training, and the conditioning then they can be very formidable. The "karate" guys give some different angles and movement than most MMA fighters do. The "karate" guys have to be able to do and defend against the other guys moves though. MMA has proven the well-rounded guy has the best chance.

I think we need to keep in mind that MMA is not real fighting, it's an athletic contest and it is indeed martial. Some of their moves will get you really hurt on the street. But then a good MMA fighter should work on adapting it to street use as well. Against most traditional martial artists I would bet on the MMA guy in a street fight due to real contact experience and the conditioning.

I applaud the "karate" guys who have adapted and make it look good. My meaning behind putting "karate" in quotes is simply that the word has become very generic in America. If you have just Tae Kwon Do or Kenpo, or Hapkido on your sign most people still don't know what that is. Add the word karate to the end and people understand what you are advertising.

Not real fighting? I think you should tell that to some of the guys I was reffing on Saturday lol! Especially the one with the bust nose and the one that got KO'd! I'd describe it as fighting with rules sounds a tad better than 'an athletic contest' tbh that sounds somewhat wussy! of course you could just say it's MMA lol!

 

[Kenpo1981]

I just mean it's a contest with rules, a ring, gloves, a cup, a mouthpiece, a referee, time constraints, a mat, etc. None of that is in a a real fight. If there is an athletic contest out there that is close to a real fight it is definitely MMA. People get broken bones in football, too. That doesn't make it a fight. If you really read my earlier post you will see respect is given to all.