John Pellegrini

[puunui]

Because the Seo/Suh Kidohae, or the "provincial" Kidohae as it is referred to in Korea is a Kuk Sool Won organization that was "assumed in the 1980's, it has nothing to do with Hapkido.

Have you told that to GM West and Dr. Kimm? And apparently it didn't bother GM Adams, since he claims to be a Kuk Sool Won member and calls his art Hapkido. Isn't he in your lineage? And by stating the above, doesn't that cut against your claim regarding your own Hapkido background and training? If they are not Hapkido, then neither are you, right? We won't even go into the Bob Miller thing.

Choi Dojunim had little or nothing to do with Seoul based, or Pusan based organizations decades before his death.

Still doesn't take away from the fact that he was a founding member of both organizations.

Now that is funny. Wasn't he already out of the country by 1982? And he had SUCH a close bond with Choi Dojunim that what he just forgot to come to the funeral? Revisionism aside, it showed so much respect to make a claim to being the founder of Hapkido in the same issue of TKDT that the death of Choi Dojunim was announced.

No, GM Ji left Korea in 1984, not 1982. And I don't know what issue of TKDT you are talking about. Which issue is that? I will say that I was training with GM Ji when GM Choi passed away, and in fact I was the one who informed him of GM Choi's passing.

Like claiming to be Choi Dojunim's senior student, or an assistant instructor at Choi Dojunim's dojang...all false. There are too many people who were there and remember what happened for any of the revisionism to stand.

I would say that GM Ji was "a" senior student of GM Choi's, and most probably did help with the teaching duties at GM Choi's dojang, like most black belts do. You claimed to have been an assistant instructor when you were a blue belt. But irrespective of that, I would say that GM Ji's role in promoting and popularizing hapkido is unquestioned, a popularity which I notice some hapkido practitioners happily use for their own benefit, while at the same time criticizing him, for whatever reason. Would you be even practicing hapkido if it weren't for GM Ji and his students, much less GM Seo and Kuk Sool Won?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Since this might clarify things for you, in your own mind, do ANY of the 9th or 10th dans in Sin Moo have a similar training history - lets say 18 years of daily training (or even 6 days a week) with Sin Moo's Founder??

Do you feel that eighteen years warrants a ninth dan? No value judgement on the answer. Just curious.

 

[mastercole]

Originally Posted by Kong Soo Do Regardless, Glenn, because you're so focused on something that is very minor you've missed the major point. I can't make it any clearer for you than I have. At any rate, at this point it is inmaterial and not worth the effort to try to bring you to understanding. If and when you're ready you'll understand.



If GM Myung did not promote GMP to fifth or sixth dan, then I would not consider that to be something very minor. I don't think that you really know either, given that your only source is a discussion on an internet board. If he did not promote GMP to 5th or 6th dan (or at all), then saying that he did could be considered libel, particularly if it is connected with accusations of the sale of rank. I have no idea if he did or not, so I'm not going to press it. I only know that other people's internet discussions and someone else's 'I guess' are not enough for me to spread negative comments about others on the internet.

And with respect (seriously, not sarcastically), you are not a hapkidoist so far as I know, so you should probably avoid pressing the issue on this, given that you really don't know and that you consider it to be a minor point anyway. You should also avoid making statements such as, "hapkido is just a label" when do not train in the art.

To be fair, Dave Schultz may not be a pure Hapkidoin, but, he did invent "Taekido" from what I understand, which might be a blend of Tae from Taekwondo, and Kido from Hapkido, does that count as a Hapkidoin? Unlike Pelligrini and Schultz I never invented a style of martial arts so I am not sure what all that involves.

If I did suddenly decide to invent a martial art I do a have a name in mind. I would like to call it "pabo-do." The official organization name would be the "miguk pabo-do yunmeng" because I feel that would best represent where most of the members would come from.

 

[puunui]

Why Choi Dojunim did anything he did I would only be guessing.

One thing you might want to guess about is why GM Choi continued to give out certificates which GM Ji made for him in the mid 1960's to students in the 80's. Do you think it was for convenience? And if so, do you think it was more convenient to start calling his art "Hapkido" instead of Yukwonsul, since after all, he was issuing those KHA certificates, which even has the old eagle logo used by the KHA in the 60's. GM Choi, like the rest of his senior students, was riding the wave of popularity that was created by GM Ji and his students in Korea during that time.

But Grandmaster Lim had many years or both public and private instruction, and trained with Choi Dojunim 6 days a week. Including almost a decade when Choi Dojunim was teaching out of Grandmaster Lim's dojang.

GM Lim did not start his hapkido training directly with GM Choi. He started with someone else. And GM Choi had a stroke which incapacitated him some years prior to his death, so I don't know the quality of that later time, for your purposes.

Since this might clarify things for you, in your own mind, do ANY of the 9th or 10th dans in Sin Moo have a similar training history - lets say 18 years of daily training (or even 6 days a week) with Sin Moo's Founder??

Yes, his early students in Korea trained with him and stayed with him until they themselves left Korea. GM MYUNG Kwang Sik would be one such person as would be others of his generation. As for GM Ji's time in the US, the name that comes to mind is GM Yung Freda, who was there from the first month at Daly City. He has the most days with GM Ji than anyone of his non-korean born students.

 

[mastercole]

And with respect (seriously, not sarcastically), you are not a hapkidoist so far as I know, so you should probably avoid pressing the issue on this, given that you really don't know and that you consider it to be a minor point anyway. You should also avoid making statements such as, "hapkido is just a label" when do not train in the art.

could it be that some people like to ramble on and on and on about something they don't know anything about. Maybe attacking something real give them a feeling of legitimacy? Or maybe it's in hopes that their ad nauseam attacks places them in a position of assumed expertise on the subject, a subject that they don't know anything about. We will probably never know.............

 

[puunui]

Unlike Pelligrini and Schultz I never invented a style of martial arts so I am not sure what all that involves.

I never invented a style either, and most probably never will. Not my personality or mentality, especially when there is still so much to learn in the styles that I am already involved with. And I always wonder if I will entirely get it all in those styles. Probably not.

 

[iron_ox]

Sure they should. By whom? The international MA regulatory commission? Doesn't exist, and since Korea doesn't have an equivalent to the Dai Nippon Butokukai, I guess it falls to the Kidohae. Apparently they gave GMP his rank. And apparently, they have no real power to hold anyone accountable or to prevent them using the name 'hapkido' in their art.

Hello Daniel,

They should be held accountable by people in Hapkido that care about the art and want to see it flourish. Plain and simple.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Do you feel that eighteen years warrants a ninth dan?

This would make for an interesting thread to see how people respond and their justification for their reasoning.

 

[MJS]

To be fair, Dave Schultz may not be a pure Hapkidoin, but, he did invent "Taekido" from what I understand, which might be a blend of Tae from Taekwondo, and Kido from Hapkido, does that count as a Hapkidoin? Unlike Pelligrini and Schultz I never invented a style of martial arts so I am not sure what all that involves.

If I did suddenly decide to invent a martial art I do a have a name in mind. I would like to call it "pabo-do." The official organization name would be the "miguk pabo-do yunmeng" because I feel that would best represent where most of the members would come from.

Well, points taken, however, I'd like to keep talking about GMP.

 

[puunui]

They should be held accountable by people in Hapkido that care about the art and want to see it flourish. Plain and simple.

I can tell you GM Ji's response to that. There was once a Hapkido junior who did not study with GM Ji but called GM Ji and started to complain about one of his seniors who did train with GM Ji. After listening for about one minute, GM Ji asked where the junior got his training and who promoted the junior. The junior lied and said "Korea", at which point GM Ji told the junior that he should complain to Korea and hung up the phone. The junior never called back and has never been heard from since.

 

[iron_ox]

Do you feel that eighteen years warrants a ninth dan? No value judgement on the answer. Just curious.

If you are asking me, I will say again that it is not my place to make that call. Choi Dojunim stayed very consistent over the years with his gradings, in particular for a man that did not read or write.

 

[puunui]

If you are asking me, I will say again that it is not my place to make that call.

And yet you freely judge others, including those in your own lineage.

Choi Dojunim stayed very consistent over the years with his gradings, in particular for a man that did not read or write.

Consistent how?

 

[iron_ox]

GM Lim was promoted to 9th Dan in 1983, not 1984. So it was eighteen years from white belt to 9th Dan, not nineteen. My mistake.

OK, must have been a typo huh?

You have a 9th Dan - do you have 18 years of direct day to day training with the Founder of Sin Moo? 12 years? 10 years? 5 years perhaps? How much day to day training do you have? or have you been primarily a seminar student as you live now in Hawaii and i don't believe the founder of Sin Moo has ever resided there.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Hello Daniel,

They should be held accountable by people in Hapkido that care about the art and want to see it flourish. Plain and simple.

How? Through negative press in the form of internet threads? There are probably thousands of such discussions going on. And the same people who gravitate towards what he offers will still gravitate towards what he offers and call those saying negative things about GMP haters.

Personally, I think the facts can be stated and those with hears will hear:

• He was promted to first dan by GM Wolmerhauser with minimal time in the art in 1989.
• He was promoted to fifth dan in (according to your post earlier) or around 1992 by Kwang Sik Myung
• He began CHKD about the same year.
• He was promoted to ninth dan in or around 1995 by GM Seo of the Kidohae.
• The overwhelming majority of CHKD students (near as I can tell) train via video.
• He goes to US Military bases and plays on the mat with servicemen.
• He does seminars with law enforcement.
• He does seminars to promote his art.

I think that that pretty much covers it. Those who have eyes, let them read. And I didn't have to say a single negative thing about the people who promoted him, him, his organization, or his system. And at that point, my job is done.

If someone still wants to train in his system after knowing those eight items, then I wish them the very best and I hope that what he offers is what they are looking foor and is a good fit for them. I would recommend that they talk to people who practice CHKD to see what they think of it and how the organization treats them, particularly with regards to whether or not it is a money pit (not saying nor implying that it is). If the answers are satisfactory, then go for it.


You may feel that what he does has dire consequences for the art. I haven't seen enough of his system to call it inferior, so I have no comment on that. As far as rank inflation goes, started in 1989 and it is 2012 and he's a ninth dan GM. He cannot go any higher. He will one day pass on and his art will have either proven itself worthy and survive his passing or it will die out without his personality to drive it.

If it dies out, hapkido will go on and will be better for the demise of CHKD. If CHKD proves a worthy art and survives, then hapkido will be strengthened as well.

That is my opinion at least. I respect and understand if you do not feel the same way.

 

[iron_ox]

How? Through negative press in the form of internet threads? There are probably thousands of such discussions going on. And the same people who gravitate towards what he offers will still gravitate towards what he offers and call those saying negative things about GMP haters.

Personally, I think the facts can be stated and those with hears will hear:

• He was promted to first dan by GM Wolmerhauser with minimal time in the art in 1989.
• He was promoted to fifth dan in (according to your post earlier) or around 1992 by Kwang Sik Myung
• He began CHKD about the same year.
• He was promoted to ninth dan in or around 1995 by GM Seo of the Kidohae.
• The overwhelming majority of CHKD students (near as I can tell) train via video.
• He goes to US Military bases and plays on the mat with servicemen.
• He does seminars with law enforcement.
• He does seminars to promote his art.

I think that that pretty much covers it. Those who have eyes, let them read. And I didn't have to say a single negative thing about the people who promoted him, him, his organization, or his system. And at that point, my job is done.

If someone still wants to train in his system after knowing those eight items, then I wish them the very best and I hope that what he offers is what they are looking foor and is a good fit for them. I would recommend that they talk to people who practice CHKD to see what they think of it and how the organization treats them, particularly with regards to whether or not it is a money pit (not saying nor implying that it is). If the answers are satisfactory, then go for it.


You may feel that what he does has dire consequences for the art. I haven't seen enough of his system to call it inferior, so I have no comment on that. As far as rank inflation goes, started in 1989 and it is 2012 and he's a ninth dan GM. He cannot go any higher. He will one day pass on and his art will have either proven itself worthy and survive his passing or it will die out without his personality to drive it.

If it dies out, hapkido will go on and will be better for the demise of CHKD. If CHKD proves a worthy art and survives, then hapkido will be strengthened as well.

That is my opinion at least. I respect and understand if you do not feel the same way.

I appreciate your response. We will have to agree to disagree I feel as I think it does matter about the rank issue. We ave little to go by in Martial Arts in general except rank, we generally can't just go around hitting people in the head to prove a point about someone's skill, but I have seen that happen years ago.

I do respect your opinion, but think without placing some level of critical eye on this type of ranking in variants of the art, it is watered down tremendously.

Again, thank you for the response.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

If you are asking me, I will say again that it is not my place to make that call. Choi Dojunim stayed very consistent over the years with his gradings, in particular for a man that did not read or write.

Fair enough. As I said, whatever your answer, I make no value judgement. I know that in kendo, ninth dan is no longer possible to obtain, as the grade has been abolished by the ZNKR. Eighteen years from the very beginning would get you roughly to sixth dan. Different art, so different paradigm, I suppose. I have grown accustomed to the idea that getting to eighth dan is a lifelong persuit. In kendo, there is a physical grading and less than two percent of those who test pass from what I understand. These are not young testors either, as I think the minimum age for a hachidan is 46. So even if I had begun my kendo training forty years ago, I still would not be able to test for hachidan.

From shodan, it is thirty one years to hachidan at a minimum. While there is not stipulated time from beginning to ikyu, there is a minimum of three months from ikyu to shodan. You can bet on an average of two to four years to shodan from rokyu, so you are looking at anywhere from thirty two to thirty five years from beginning to hachidan. When kyudan was still an attainable grade, it would have been over years, as it is ten years from nana dan to hachidan, so you'd be looking at another decade after reaching hachidan. That makes for forty one years from shodan to kyudan, more than double the time from ship geub to gudan in hapkdo.

When I hear eighteen years from white belt to ninth dan it makes me curious as to what the standards are. As I said, it is a different art from kendo, so I make no value judgements. It simply is a different perspective.

 

[puunui]

OK, must have been a typo huh?

You have a 9th Dan - do you have 18 years of direct day to day training with the Founder of Sin Moo? 12 years? 10 years? 5 years perhaps? How much day to day training do you have? or have you been primarily a seminar student as you live now in Hawaii and i don't believe the founder of Sin Moo has ever resided there.

Back in the 80s, I was practicing Hapkido here and was applying to grad schools. I asked my instructor who his teacher was, and he gave me his lineage, through GM Ji. Then, almost immediately after that conversation, I saw a cover story in Black Belt magazine that GM Ji had moved to the US. I showed that article to my hapkido teacher, and he strongly encouraged me to go learn from GM Ji, because in his words, three years with him is like ten or twenty years under someone else. He said that if you are lucky enough to get accepted as his personal student, something that not everyone in Korea was able to do, he was the type that taught without hesitation, and wouldn't hold back or string me along. I had already applied to schools, including ivy league schools (which I got into) but chose to give all that up to go learn from GM Ji based on that conversation. My first Hapkido instructor and I were very close, I saw him everyday, and even though he was twenty years older than me, said I was like his younger brother. So I trusted his input and advice and made a life decision to go train with GM Ji instead of getting a Harvard or Wharton degree and working on Wall Street doing mergers and acquisitions while making millions. My college finance professor invented the discounted cash flow method which was published in the Harvard Business Review when he was teaching at Columbia, so with his recommendation and connections, along with my grades and test scores, I could pretty much choose whatever school I wanted to go to on the east coast. I made the most out of my time with GM Ji, because the opportunity cost of my decision was incredibly high.

The very first time I met GM Ji, the first words out of his mouth after looking into my eyes was "I've been waiting for you." My very first words to him was "I got here as soon as I could." That was the beginning of our relationship. GM Ji used to compare me to his student GM HAN Bong Soo. He said we both had the same type of beautifully elegant smooth kicks, in addition to everything else. He was upset when I put a white belt on that first class because he said I was a 5th Dan (just like GM Han was in his promotion book) and should wear a black belt. I wanted to start from the beginning as well as respect the seniority chain that was already in place. I wasn't a Hapkido 5th Dan, but I think he may have been picking up on the fact that Professor Chow promoted me to "Chief Instructor 5th Degree" before I moved to San Francisco, after less than three years of training with him. My uncle had introduced Professor Chow to his wife Patsy back in the 50's and so I think he was trying to pay my uncle back through his over generosity to me.

But to answer your question, no I am not primarily a seminar student, but rather a regular student from Daly City, where it all began. So my relationship with GM Ji is a little different than your 56 seminar days with GM Lim. Even now, when I show up for Sin Moo Hapkido events, I generally try to either avoid the photo taking, or stand far in the back while everyone else is pushing their way to the front, and GM Ji will call me up and have me sit to his immediate right. People are still trying to push their way to the front of the line, as that wikipedia list shows. I should take my name off that. I didn't put my name up there in the first place. That kind of thing is for other people.

 

[iron_ox]

When I hear eighteen years from white belt to ninth dan it makes me curious as to what the standards are. As I said, it is a different art from kendo, so I make no value judgements. It simply is a different perspective.

Choi Dojunim started his teaching career in Korea when he was in his late 40's and taught a total of less than 40 years. According to long time students, his initial progression of techniques was rather slow, but if you stayed long enough, the flood gates opened and the true level of his knowledge was taught by him.

He apparently had his own standard in mind as he ranked people and stayed pretty consistent to that standard.

I think it would be difficult to compare Choi Dojunim's ranking style to that of Kendo.

Interesting observation though.

 

[iron_ox]

But to answer your question, no I am not primarily a seminar student, but rather a regular student from Daly City, where it all began. So my relationship with GM Ji is a little different than your 56 seminar days with GM Lim. Even now, when I show up for Sin Moo Hapkido events, I generally try to either avoid the photo taking, or stand far in the back while everyone else is pushing their way to the front, and GM Ji will call me up and have me sit to his immediate right. People are still trying to push their way to the front of the line, as that wikipedia list shows. I should take my name off that. I didn't put my name up there in the first place. That kind of thing is for other people.

But that does not answer the question. How many years of day to day training did you do in Daly City? 18 years? And if not than you ARE a seminar student even if you had some formative years training with him in Daly City right? And I haven't tried to assume what your relationship is with your instructor, but you are a 9th dan never the less and you questioned 18 years of daily instruction - and I'm happy you don't push up to the front of the line, good for you - don't presume to have any idea of the relationships I have with my instructors.

Frankly my training time is not what you brought up. You brought up Grandmaster Lim's training time with Choi Dojunim. I don't have, or make claim to a 9th dan - you do, SO do you have at least the same training time? I'm sure since you are raising such a fuss it must be more right? Don't deflect. Just answer the question. You don't even need to bring up the training time the founder of Sin Moo had with Choi Dojunim, just your training time.

 

[puunui]

But that does not answer the question. How many years of day to day training did you do in Daly City? 18 years? And if not than you ARE a seminar student even if you had some formative years training with him in Daly City right?

Actually no I am not a seminar student. I took one seminar with GM Ji, a revival techniques seminar. I consciously avoid those seminars. And whatever my training with GM Ji, it was more than your 56 days, which by the way, started almost two decades before you even met GM Lim.

And I haven't tried to assume what your relationship is with your instructor,

Actually you have - you presumed and continue to presume that my relationship with GM Ji is seminar based.

but you are a 9th dan never the less and you questioned 18 years of daily instruction - and I'm happy you don't push up to the front of the line, good for you - don't presume to have any idea of the relationships I have with my instructors.

Again, it wasn't 18 years of daily instruction, because GM Lim didn't start with GM Choi and the last few years GM Choi had a stroke. Check out his webpage for more information. Reading his webpage, it isn't clear that he started training in 1965, only that he first saw or met GM Choi in 1965:

"visiting founder choi young-sool in 1965, grandmaster lim had his first meeting with hapkido. he felt a mysterious charm that made him decide to walk the way of martial artist. at first, the was taught by master kim yeung-jae, founder choi young-sul's pupil, while teaching the students. but he couldn't help stopping his desire to be the best of the martial artist. revisiting founder choi, and became his pupil until 1981...."

As for questioning GM Lim, personally I don't really care. My point is that you live in a glass house, and therefore perhaps you should think twice before you throw rocks at GM Pelligrini or anyone else. If you want to throw rocks at me, feel free to continue to do so. I'll put my hapkido background training and knowledge up for comparison to yours anytime. Whatever sacrifice you think you made on behalf of hapkido, I sacrificed and paid more. Much more. GM Seo, who is in your lineage, doesn't care so why should you? Similarly, if GM Lim wants to promote you to master, then good for him. I wish you the best, as I do GM Pellegrini.