John Pellegrini

[puunui]

This is what I've been saying. Only two realistic options exist and anyone interested in this topic has a simple choice to make. If John P. earned his ranks, then those that ranked him should proudly say so as he has gone on to develop a successful system that is well received from those actually training in it. If he didn't...well, then there is the other option for those folks to consider.

You might wish to broaden your perspective beyond your own, because if you do that, you might get to the actual facts. Starting from a conclusion is probably the worst way to investigate something. I prefer to take a more objective approach, seeing it how it really is, from the other person's perspective and culture, rather than seeing it wearing rose colored glasses tinted with my own perspective and culture only.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

DO you not understand the implication of inflated rank and the potential to be teaching inferior material?

While the two are not exclusive, one does not require the other. There is plenty of inferior matieral being taught by people without inflated rank. Perhaps the pioneers of most of Korean arts should have put better mechanisms into place to curb this sort of thing. The Kuk Sool Won guy did from what I understand, and I think that Hwarang Do guy did as well. If I'm not mistaken, they can go after you legally if you use the names of those arts without being ranked in them.

And certainly, there were fakes and pretenders at the time HKD was founded.

And libel? Come on Daniel, are you kidding?

Firstly, my remark was neither directed at you nor was it meant to imply you. Secondly, people have been gone after legally for things that they post on internet forums about other people, so if the person to whom it was directed is going to keep saying 'such and such did thus and so,' which happens to be questionable, they really should be able to reference it to more than just an internet thread.

And with respect, seriously, you claim to be a hapkidoin

Claim to be.

- someone that claims very high rank in Hapkido should be something you question!

If I am planning to train under someone, I will question them to death. Otherwise, they're just another place that I crossed off of the list. While I would look forward to participating in a CHKD seminar, I have no desire to train via video. Video teaching pretty much kills it for me, regardless of GMP's rank or who promoted him.

The organizations that issued the rank SHOULD be held accountable - in particular when they have no business issuing rank in Hapkido in the first place.

Sure they should. By whom? The international MA regulatory commission? Doesn't exist, and since Korea doesn't have an equivalent to the Dai Nippon Butokukai, I guess it falls to the Kidohae. Apparently they gave GMP his rank. And apparently, they have no real power to hold anyone accountable or to prevent them using the name 'hapkido' in their art.

So it isn't going to happen. GMP's rank isn't going anywhere. Myung Kwang Sik passed away in 2009, and Seo is KSW and unlikely to go and bust GMP back down to whatever he was prior to being promoted to GM.

Combat Hapkido is not going to be confused for hapkido and frankly, the guys looking to rank via video aren't concerned with whether or not GMP's rank was inflated. And like myself, video training pretty much kills if for anyone who is really interested in quality training. Those who are interested in video learning probably aren't going to be at all interested in what you or I are doing anyway. And there's an instant GM in any major art you can think of with DVD's out there just for those who think that you can learn martial arts from the TV.

Which is why I say that people need to get over it with regards to this guy unless they're willing to either out market him or actually try to bring him up on fraud charges.

Perhaps all of the traditional or legitimate HKD GMs should get together and form an organization to define and register legitimate Hapkido kwans and to actually call BS on thsoe that they feel are not.

But if they're not willing to do that, then how do you propose to hold such organizations accountable?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Hello all,

I'm not going to quote the whole blurb...

TKDT Sept 1992, Volume 12, Number 6, page 16.

"...First World Hapkido Federation Advanced Hapkido Camp...Master Pellegrini who was recently promoted to fifth dan by Grandmaster Kwang Sik Myung"

There is a picture, with them and Gunther Bauer, so it was a fifth dan...not sure why I thought sixth dan...still just as suspect as his first dan was in what 1989 or so, according to Master Mike Wollmershauser when we spoke.

TKDT Sept 1994, Volume 15, Number 1, Page 16.

April 16 - 17 1994 was the first World Ki do Federation seminar in Florida. Within three years, has Grandmaster Rank.

Frankly, having seen what he does, I wished he called it something else...

Of course the issuers of the higher rank should be scrutinized...why those ranks were ever conferred is anyone's guess. If we look at the last, highest ranks, I am under the assumption that the "organization" (World Ki-do, or Hanminjok) conferred them as there is no one in the organization ranked highly enough in Hapkido to issues such rank.

Appreciate the clarification sir.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

The Hapkido (and TKD) came well before we went with KSD.

Very cool. Though I still disagree about HKD being just a label.

 

[puunui]

Appreciate the clarification sir.

Funny, but I don't think I have ever addressed any of my teachers or seniors as "sir", and I have never heard my seniors using that term either. Calling my teachers and/or seniors "sir" would be like calling my parents or older siblings "sir". I know some families use that, but not mine.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

You can call me sir; I'm a knight!

 

[puunui]

Very cool. Though I still disagree about HKD being just a label.

Hapkido is not just a label.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Hapkido is not just a label.

I know.

 

[puunui]

And with respect, seriously, you claim to be a hapkidoin - someone that claims very high rank in Hapkido should be something you question!

Did you question GM Lim about his own hapkido promotions? We know his claim about starting hapkido training in 1965, and that he was promoted to 9th Dan (with one of GM Ji's certificates) by GM Choi in 1984, after GM Choi had suffered a stroke and stopped teaching for a number of years. Is 19 years, in your opinion, enough time to go from white belt to 9th Dan? Also, do you know if GM Lim has all his certificates from 1st through 9th, or did he skip any dan ranks? Just wondering because we always hear about GM Lim's 9th Dan, but never the circumstances upon which he received that.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Very cool. Though I still disagree about HKD being just a label.

That's okay, we can agree to disagree. I enjoy talking with you regardless of whether we agree or not

 

[miguksaram]

While the two are not exclusive, one does not require the other. There is plenty of inferior matieral being taught by people without inflated rank. Perhaps the pioneers of most of Korean arts should have put better mechanisms into place to curb this sort of thing. The Kuk Sool Won guy did from what I understand, and I think that Hwarang Do guy did as well. If I'm not mistaken, they can go after you legally if you use the names of those arts without being ranked in them.

Not entirely correct. You have to have their permission to use their name and teach their art even if you are ranked in it as a black belt. They went after an individual who was was ranked 4th Dan in Hwarangdo and taught the art, mixed with other arts, under an entirely different name. However the WHRDA was pushing a lawsuit to stop him from even teaching the same forms....just an FYI...now back to the program.

 

[iron_ox]

Off Topic:

What you describe isn't hapkido but rather yukwonsul or yusul.

No, it was Hapkido. Far before revisionist historians claimed they "invented" the name...

The kicks of hapkido were not added in Seoul years later but were practiced in Taegu. The two people who are most credited with the hapkido kicks are GM JI Han Jae and GM KIM Moo Hong, both early students of GM Choi. GM Choi knew exactly what GM Ji and GM Kim were doing and did not object, complain or discourage them from practicing or adding that into the curriculum. As for why GM Ji and GM Kim added kicks, it was because kicking is a part of korean culture, and they both wanted to create an art that was uniquely Korean, which GM Choi approved of, even though he himself did not practice nor teach those kicks.

No again, not according to the GM's I have spoken to from Daegu that were training at the end of the 1940's - the high kicks were never taught or practiced in Choi Dojunim's dojang. Only in Seoul. But you can believe what you want...

 

[iron_ox]

Ahh...ok. Thank you for clarifying that. So, I take it that the Hapkido that you teach, is as you described above?

Yes, I teach Hapkido...not a variant.

 

[iron_ox]

Appreciate the clarification sir.

Sorry my earlier number was incorrect.

 

[puunui]

No, it was Hapkido. Far before revisionist historians claimed they "invented" the name...

Was it? There are photos of dojang signs that prove otherwise.

No again, not according to the GM's I have spoken to from Daegu that were training at the end of the 1940's - the high kicks were never taught or practiced in Choi Dojunim's dojang. Only in Seoul. But you can believe what you want...

I was talking about the 1950's. GM SUH Bok Sup stated that GM KIM Moo Hong trained hard in kicks when GM Kim was an instructor at his dojang, during the 50's, in Taegu.

Also, GM YOO Yong Woo (GM Ji's first student in Andong) stated that they trained "high kicks" in andong in 1956, which is before Seoul.

Also, I never said the high kicks were taught or practiced in Choi Dojunim's dojang. What I said was "GM Choi knew exactly what GM Ji and GM Kim were doing and did not object, complain or discourage them from practicing or adding that into the curriculum."

But you can believe what you want...

 

[puunui]

Yes, I teach Hapkido...not a variant.

Correction, you teach yukwonsul, and call it hapkido.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Sorry my earlier number was incorrect.

Not a problem

 

[iron_ox]

Why wouldn't the kidohae have no business issuing hapkido rank?

Because the Seo/Suh Kidohae, or the "provincial" Kidohae as it is referred to in Korea is a Kuk Sool Won organization that was "assumed in the 1980's, it has nothing to do with Hapkido.

After all, the kidohae was created by GM Choi and he was the first president/chair. GM Choi was also endorsed the Korea Hapkido Association, and by extension, its successor organizations.

Choi Dojunim had little or nothing to do with Seoul based, or Pusan based organizations decades before his death.

GM Choi was issuing KHA certificates that GM Ji printed for him, including to GM Lim.

Now that is funny. Wasn't he already out of the country by 1982? And he had SUCH a close bond with Choi Dojunim that what he just forgot to come to the funeral? Revisionism aside, it showed so much respect to make a claim to being the founder of Hapkido in the same issue of TKDT that the death of Choi Dojunim was announced. Like claiming to be Choi Dojunim's senior student, or an assistant instructor at Choi Dojunim's dojang...all false. There are too many people who were there and remember what happened for any of the revisionism to stand.

 

[puunui]

Did you question GM Lim about his own hapkido promotions? We know his claim about starting hapkido training in 1965, and that he was promoted to 9th Dan (with one of GM Ji's certificates) by GM Choi in 1984, after GM Choi had suffered a stroke and stopped teaching for a number of years. Is 19 years, in your opinion, enough time to go from white belt to 9th Dan? Also, do you know if GM Lim has all his certificates from 1st through 9th, or did he skip any dan ranks? Just wondering because we always hear about GM Lim's 9th Dan, but never the circumstances upon which he received that.

GM Lim was promoted to 9th Dan in 1983, not 1984. So it was eighteen years from white belt to 9th Dan, not nineteen. My mistake.

 

[iron_ox]

OFF TOPIC! (Again)

GM Lim was promoted to 9th Dan in 1983, not 1984. So it was eighteen years from white belt to 9th Dan, not nineteen. My mistake.

Why Choi Dojunim did anything he did I would only be guessing. But Grandmaster Lim had many years or both public and private instruction, and trained with Choi Dojunim 6 days a week. Including almost a decade when Choi Dojunim was teaching out of Grandmaster Lim's dojang.

Since this might clarify things for you, in your own mind, do ANY of the 9th or 10th dans in Sin Moo have a similar training history - lets say 18 years of daily training (or even 6 days a week) with Sin Moo's Founder?? I was just looking at the list...lets see...

• Merrill Jung; 10th Dan - California - maybe
• Jurg Ziegler; 10th Dan - Switzerland - probably not
• Ken MacKenzie; 10th Dan - New Jersey - maybe
• Massan Ghorbani; 9th Dan - Ireland - probably not
• John Beluschak; 9th Dan - Pennsylvania - probably not
• Walter Hubmann; 9th Dan - Austria - Probably not
• Nicolas Tacchi; 9th Dan - France - Probably not
• Rami Vainionpàà, 9th Dan - Finland - Probably not
• Rafael Balbastre, 9th Dan - Spain - Probably not
• Yung T. Freda; 9th Dan - California - maybe
• Glenn H. Uesugi; 9th Dan - you - ??
• Stuart Forrest; 9th Dan- California - maybe
• Ronny Dassen; 9th Dan - Belgium - Probably not
• Dr. Egil Fosslien; 9th Dan - Illinois - maybe
• Hank Shik-Shin; 9th Dan - Pennsylvannia - maybe
• Ian Cyrus; 9th Dan - Pennsylvannia - maybe
• Larry Dorsey; 9th Dan - California - maybe
• Scott Yates; 9th Dan - New Jersey - maybe
• Geoff J. Booth; 9th Dan - Australia - Probably not
• John Godwin; 9th Dan - Delaware - maybe
• Jimmy Brown; 9th Dan - maybe

Do any of these men have 18 years of daily training with Sin Moo's founder? I don't know.


Sorry all, not going off topic again...