Joe Rogan smack talking TMA's like kung fu

[JowGaWolf]

OK. We will skip the chi balls for now. Your two direct posts one being it is the student responsible for the effectiveness of the system and on being the system is responsible.





Which one is it.

It's both. The system has to be effective for the purpose of it intended use and the student has to be effective in using it, which includes training properly for it. This is why I said Joe Rogan TKD training was effective. When he trained in TKD he was training for the purpose of winning TKD fights and kickboxing fights. So in that light his fighting system and training was effective. He made the error in thinking that the same training would translate in fighting other fighting systems.

It's a big mistake to think that the same training that you do when fighting against people who use the same style, will work equally as well against other fighting styles. Train according to purpose and train properly for that purpose. If the martial art is fake and no good for fighting then get out of it and choose one that has training that focuses on the type of fighting you want to do.

 

[JowGaWolf]

A quick search on Google Scholar did not find an article but I did find a patent for a Chi energy amplifier:

Patent US20070285325 - Chi energy amplifier

And here is the National Geographic Channel debunking it:

take it for what it's worth
Medical Study of QiGong

 

[RTKDCMB]

4:25 - it defies science. They are just not looking hard enough.There are a number of points that are easily explainable.

1) The as angle of the spear changes when it is bent the direction of the force changes from directly into the throat to a more downwards direction towards where the the clavicles meet.
2) The skin on the area of the throat the spear is resting against is stretched tight which provides an additional barrier.
3) The spear is held against the throat horizontally so that it can sit straddling both clavicles, keeping the tip away from the soft area of the throat.
4) The wooden rod is very long compared to its width and the assistant hits with it close to where he is holding it which means there is a significant portion of its mass is beyond the fulcrum point (point of impact). This makes the rod easier to break. Plus its small mass does not significantly impart any movement on the body of the performer.

All that being said it is still a dangerous practice because if the person performing this feat does not know what he is doing it still could result in serious injury.

 

[drop bear]

A quick search on Google Scholar did not find an article but I did find a patent for a Chi energy amplifier:

Patent US20070285325 - Chi energy amplifier

And here is the National Geographic Channel debunking it:

Well that is in the dojo with rules. Not the street.

 

[JowGaWolf]

electric eel man

4:25 - it defies science. They are just not looking hard enough.There are a number of points that are easily explainable.

1) The as angle of the spear changes when it is bent the direction of the force changes from directly into the throat to a more downwards direction towards where the the clavicles meet.
2) The skin on the area of the throat the spear is resting against is stretched tight which provides an additional barrier.
3) The spear is held against the throat horizontally so that it can sit straddling both clavicles, keeping the tip away from the soft area of the throat.
4) The wooden rod is very long compared to its width and the assistant hits with it close to where he is holding it which means there is a significant portion of its mass is beyond the fulcrum point (point of impact). This makes the rod easier to break. Plus its small mass does not significantly impart any movement on the body of the performer.

All that being said it is still a dangerous practice because if the person performing this feat does not know what he is doing it still could result in serious injury.

The good thing about science is that it's not absolute and it's only based on what we understand. . This to me sounds like the Chi (QI) that some people talk about but as science sees it. Heres a harvard article of tai chi notice how the benefits are similar to the article about electricity in the body. Things just sound crazy when people start making it more than what it is.

Animals have been defying science for a long time and it takes a while for our knowledge to catch up to what we thought wasn't possible. Animals do such a good job in defying science as we know it, that the science community is now more open minded than they have been in the past. For example: Animal that can survive in space and possible live in space is new and goes against what scientist in the past have stated when I was a kid. Pluto isn't considered a planet anymore by science. Science is always changing. Thank goodness.

 

[Koshiki]

The good thing about science is that it's not absolute and it's only based on what we understand. . This to me sounds like the Chi (QI) that some people talk about but as science sees it.

Very true; the diversity of ideas and explanations available, coupled with processes of logic, rationality, and scientific testing, as well as just basic knowledge of the physical world makes for an excellent way to determine what may and may not be the truth of a given subject, as well as what may or may not be a viable solution to a given problem.

With that in mind, here's another way to view certain aspects attributed to Qi, but as you say, "as science sees it."

 

[JowGaWolf]

Very true; the diversity of ideas and explanations available, coupled with processes of logic, rationality, and scientific testing, as well as just basic knowledge of the physical world makes for an excellent way to determine what may and may not be the truth of a given subject, as well as what may or may not be a viable solution to a given problem.

With that in mind, here's another way to view certain aspects attributed to Qi, but as you say, "as science sees it."

I've seen that one before. I don't like videos like that mainly because I don't know how scientific that is. Science has the ability to say. "hey this is what I think is going on and this how they are burning the paper based on what we know." In science they would actually meet the person who can do it and have him repeat the paper burning trick in a controlled environment. So that they can eliminate any possible contamination. Basically they would need to have him strip down place him in a room where there are no external elements that could have been planted ahead of time and then give him the paper to burn. Science will be able to say what didn't start the fire but still be lost as to how the fire was started. At the most videos like that just show how it can be faked. My entire look on chi is that it's energy, maybe bio electric, or chemical or both. We control this energy everyday when we move our hands, eyes, mouth. etc. The question I would ask is are we able to condition our bodies so we can pool this energy and store it in certain points in our body. If we can pool this energy then what are the results of doing so if any.

I personally have my doubts about the "newspaper fire" with chi because most people who practice using Qi gong don't claim to be able to burn paper with their chi (Qi) nor do they claim that they can throw people around with it. You will however hear many talk about how they can use Qi to help heal people. This for example:

This is an example of where where "science" shows us that what is being done is real, but science still isn't any closer to knowing how are they able to do it. Stan Lee Superhuman Unbreakable:

Here are some humans baffling science: Video 1 with testing and video 2 below. Also check slavisa pajkic who claims he can store enough electricity in his body to light a light bulb and set things on fire by using the stored electricity. Things like that remind me to keep my mind a little more open, not so much as believe or not believe but to admit to myself that there are things that happen around us all the time where science has no answer.

There is more than enough strange stuff in the world to keep science busy.

 

[Koshiki]

...I don't like videos like that mainly because I don't know how scientific that is...
...There is more than enough strange stuff in the world to keep science busy.

Right. However, when there are several explanations for a phenomena, several of which are simple parlor magic tricks like I did as a kid (I used to love magic) and there is one explanation that defies all known laws of physics and testable analysis and relies on the faith of a few witnesses, I am sometimes inclined to go with the more simplistic explanations.

For example, with the newspaper burning, we have the option to believe that that fine chap is either a mystical member of a secret sect whose powers of meditation allow them to project electricity by focusing the energy from their belly button and and balls.

Alternatively, we can just believe that the guy is dishonest. There are a number of ways he could have done a trick like that with simple materials.

One of those two options seems many times more likely to me. Is he a secret undercover magic-man, or just a liar?

EDIT:

Regarding the hand-swelling. It's pretty well known that compression on swelling will reduce swelling, just like elevation or a cold pack. And yes, if you do it quickly on initial swelling, it works swiftly, for a few minutes. Try it next time you get a bruise.

Regarding a lot of impressive Shaolin performance style breaking, there's a lot of info out there on how it is done, including the placement of the impact point (fulcrum) and the creation of lots of leverage on the other end of the pole/bar etc, also treatment of bricks, also known aspects of conditioning on the human body in contemporary physiology. All of which can be attributed to Qi, if you like, but all of which is also explainable without Qi.

Regarding Slavisa Pajkic and his electrical ilk... For starters, I'm not sure about his Guinness World Record Claim, since I sure can't find him on their World Record List... Beyond that, anyone who's insulated and ungrounded can, more or less safely do what he's doing. The current runs through the circuit, not through your body. While I don't recommend attempting it, it's just something that you more need good boots and a bit of wiring to do, rather than Qi or any superhuman force. The human body is mostly salt water. If the current could boil a hot dog, it would boil him if it was running through him.

 

[JowGaWolf]

For starters, I'm not sure about his Guinness World Record Claim, since I sure can't find him on their World Record List... Beyond that, anyone who's insulated and ungrounded can, more or less safely do what he's doing. The current runs through the circuit, not through your body. While I don't recommend attempting it, it's just something that you more need good boots and a bit of wiring to do

You are telling how it can be done, but it doesn't explain how he's doing it. When I watch the video of the Indian guy doing the same thing, he's not wearing any shoes and he puts a live wire in his mouth while a guy places the other wire on his foot. Even if he's naturally insulated or naturally grounded then that still doesn't tell us how and why his body is naturally grounded or naturally insulated.

With the shaolin monk and the drill, there's no way you can physically condition your skin to prevent a drill bit from cutting through the skin. If it's not magic, not fake, and not the physical conditioning of the skin, and science can't explain it to you, then that only leaves their explanation of Qi and Alien. ha ha ha.
I understand things can be faked but if they aren't faking it then what is the explanation? If science has no answer but the person is sitting there telling you that it's Qi then that may actually be the answer.

For example, people have been talking about the benefits of Tai Chi for a long time, even longer than science has studied it. Then science studies it and the research results show the some of the same things that people have been claiming that Tai Chi does. Sometimes the explanation is exactly what people are saying and sometimes it's not. Remember science can't explain everything because it's based on what we know and what we understand. It wasn't too long ago that science said there wasn't water on Mars based on what "science knew and understood" Qi may be one of those things where science can only discuss an test Qi from the perspective of what it knows today. 5 years down the road Qi may even be real to science.

I've experience strange things in my life and I'm so glad most of these things have happened when I was with someone else that saw or experienced the same thing (which gives me the relief that I'm not crazy.) This is probably why I'm a little more open to possibilities. I don't like to talk about those things because crazy is definitely the first things that will come to people's minds. lol

 

[Koshiki]

With the shaolin monk and the drill, there's no way you can physically condition your skin to prevent a drill bit from cutting through the skin.

Riiight, but watching that section, the entire reason the guys were impressed by it was because he was applying a signifigant amount of pressure to the handle of the drill, which they reasoned must be focussed against his stomach, neck, and temple.

For some reason, they completely ignore the fact that his other arm is placed on the stabilizer of the drill, and is clearly straining.

So again, the question remains, is the guy honest and taking 200 lbs of pressure on a spinning drill bit against his skin, or is he using that arm which is clearly straining against the drill to take the pressure, and letting the bit push slightly against his skin, where it would likely chew up the top layers of skin, but not bite in. Which is exactly what it does...

Again, I might be biased, but when the choice is between trusting performers doing unbelievable things, or considering that they may be dishonest, I tend to opt for dishonesty. Put another way, a guy shows you a magnificent, shiny trophy and tells you he won it in a secret deathmatch tournament in the Philippines, do you believe him, or consider it more likely that he just bought the thing from Century Martial Arts? (Do they sell trophies, I don't really know...)

I mean, I can't tell you why or how every impressive, supposedly "science-denying" claim is likely explainable without Qi. I'm not even claiming that every claim is currently explainable without Qi. (Although I would guess that yes, they are...) However, when a guy who makes comic books about superheroes starts a TV show about superheroes, I don't take it as 100% when some nice chap on his show tells me, off the cuff, that "science can't explain it."

The sheer enormousness of the body of knowledge attained through the myriad disciplines of science is vast, and a real scientist in any field will be the first to tell you that they don't know enough about other fields of science to proclaim absolutely that "science" can or cannot explain a phenomena. Which is why, when the claim that science cannot explain something comes from Stan Lee on a TV show about superheroes, I don't take it at face value...

You are telling how it can be done, but it doesn't explain how he's doing it.

I'm saying that I, off the top of my head, can think of at least one way to do that as a trick. I'll be honest, I didn't analyze every moment of every guy playing with electricity, but my point is this:

Electromagnetism is a complex thing, and there are many ways to safely do things that seem horrifically dangerous, like Tesla channeling what looked like lightning bolts through his body, etc, etc, etc...

If there are a number of non-magical, non-supernatural, non-Qi-based ways to do something as a trick, and I see someone doing something that looks remarkably like said trick, I tend to lean on the side of, "it's a trick," rather than, "well, it sure looks like a trick, but I guess it's magic/Qi/force/whatever."

It wasn't too long ago that science said there wasn't water on Mars...

Regarding what "science" does and does not "know," there's a common misconception here. "Science" is either a process or basically the way in which every area of rational study conducts itself, depending on your definition. It is not and never has been, a concrete body of knowledge.

There are many areas of scientific disciplines which are in flux, and many areas in which certain aspects of related knowledge are relatively settled.

As far as I know, the enourmous body of cosmologists, planetary scientists, astronomers, terrestrial scientists, etc did not all sit down and agree that there was no water on mars. The Daily Mail or CNN or Fox News may have aired segments with titles like, "Scientists say No Water on Mars," but that doesn't mean the scientific community had reached a consensus on the subject, it means that, say, the Daily Mail issued an article with an extremely lax, sensationalist version of something that probably should have read more like, "In latest exploration, group finds still little to no evidence for liquid water on Mars."

People seem to have this idea that, as popular outlets follow a few key findings on the more palatable and publicly interesting aspects of scientific research, "Science" as a whole, oscillates and say "Red meat is good!" and then ten years later, "Wait, it's bad!" and then a bit later, "No, I guess it is good!" but that's not what happens.

Research plugs along in whatever discipline, slowly, plodding, largely boringly, and yes, mindsets shift, and yes people in the field hold various and contrary opinions, but generally is a gradual building of a body of evidence and explanation. As more and more knowledge is gained, opinions become more similar, cohesive, and accurate.

So yes, there very likely were scientists of varying fields saying that they didn't believe there to be water on Mars, and yes, finding water will have disproved there viewpoint, but it's not as though the bulk of the research community was utterly convinced that there was no water anywhere to be found. If they had, why would the search have been so long and funded and staffed?

Many people expected water on Mars, had theoretical, hypothetical, and empirical reasons to believe that there might be or should be water on Mars, and they searched for water on Mars until it was found. The difference with Qi being, it tends to be more of a faith-based belief, while it can explain some things, there are nearly always other explanations.

Am I ruling out that "science" will ever find Qi? No, but currently it's not something for which there is a body of evidence, aside from anecdotes with completely plausible and verifiable alternative explanations.

------------------------------

So in short, can I rule out that the drill guy wasn't making his skin like iron? No, although I wonder why he chose to harden some layers of skin but not the top few. Incidentally, even wood bits will awkwardly bite into hardened steel, so his skin would have to be considerably harder than steel. I have enough experience with tools to know that.

However, I also can't rule out that he was neutralizing the force applied to the handle with his right hand, equal force applied in the opposite direction with his left hand on the stabilizer, rather than actually taking that force with his stomach, throat, or temple.

And, while both options are on the table, I am inclined to go with the second.

Which is more likely, that a man should turn his flesh harder than steel, or that a performer should seek to deceive his audience?

 

[Koshiki]

There's a lot you can do with electricity that looks supernatural, looks like it should be lethal. Difference being, this guy isn't trying to deceive people or get money from his powers of "healing electric hands."

 

[RTKDCMB]

Riiight, but watching that section, the entire reason the guys were impressed by it was because he was applying a signifigant amount of pressure to the handle of the drill, which they reasoned must be focussed against his stomach, neck, and temple.

For some reason, they completely ignore the fact that his other arm is placed on the stabilizer of the drill, and is clearly straining.

So again, the question remains, is the guy honest and taking 200 lbs of pressure on a spinning drill bit against his skin, or is he using that arm which is clearly straining against the drill to take the pressure, and letting the bit push slightly against his skin, where it would likely chew up the top layers of skin, but not bite in. Which is exactly what it does...

Also check which way the drill bit is spinning.

 

[Koshiki]

Also check which way the drill bit is spinning.

That was my first thought too, but in my experience, drill bits in reverse still chew into soft substances pretty well. I wouldn't want to press a drill in reverse against my throat, that's for sure!

Also, when he presses it against his belly, you can see it twist his skin around in the correct direction for "in", assuming the footage isn't mirror image.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I will state up front that I haven't watched the video. Nor do I intend to. I've seen enough similar ones. It's BS. If there is anyone who truly believes they are immune to sharp objects, I will be happy to demonstrate that they are not. I'll even repair the wound after, and provide referrals to reputable psychotherapists who can help them deal with their delusions.


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.

 

[Koshiki]

It's BS.

Not according to Stan Lee...

 

[Koshiki]

I will say though, that it's possible for some people, like perhaps the drill guy, to actually fool themselves. I mean, he can do things that most people wouldn't attempt, and he might even not realize that he's straining against the drill in two directions, (though it seems unlikely.)

It's not that every performer of his ilk is intentionally deceiving, though most are. Some people manage to delude themselves as well.

 

[JowGaWolf]

For some reason, they completely ignore the fact that his other arm is placed on the stabilizer of the drill, and is clearly straining

I saw that too and thought they should have put the pressure sensor on both handles, but either way. I'm not doing it. lol.

I think they said he was only taking 50 lbs of pressure. I think they were saying with a smaller drill bit the pressure would have been has high as 200lbs. He use a large drill bit instead of a small one. It doesn't take much to get a small drill bit to go through stuff. I'm still wondering why the skin wasn't catching the side of that drill bit when he pushed it into his stomach, it appeared to be deep enough to do so.

If there is anyone who truly believes they are immune to sharp objects, I will be happy to demonstrate that they are not

I don't think they are saying that they are immune to sharp objects. The spears that they use are never razor sharp. They often have rounded points and no razor edge but even though the spears aren't sharp they can still hurt. You can call sword swallowing BS but it doesn't mean that sword won't rip your esophagus. Same with the spears, you can call it BS but it doesn't mean you can't get injured while doing it. See not sharp but still dangerous

Here's a guy explaining how the spear to the throat is fake

Here is a guy not using his hands.

 

[Koshiki]

As I recall without re-watching, they were saying that his hand was applying 30-50 psi, spread over about 2 in2 of pressure pad, which they said, focused down to a 1/2 in2 of the head of the bit, would be 120 to 200 psi applied to his neck. No that any of that matters if we're all in agreement that he probably wasn't actually applying any of that pressure to his body with the bit, but rather the stabilizer.

I guess I misread/misunderstood your posts. I thought you were claiming all this stuff to likely be true, and thus evidence of extra-physical ability.

I fully agree that there is much which the scientific method and related research processes have yet to explain. I just don't think these particular clips and anecdotes fall into that category. As someone who has a passing interest in stage and close-up magic, most of these things seem quite easily explainable without invoking the supernatural, the unknown to rational observation. I've seen magic tricks that I can't begin to explain, but these are not among them.

 

[Koshiki]

However, on the note of sharp-ish things piercing versus stretching skin, speed plays a key element in whether an impact displaces or distorts. The longer a force is applied, the more it is able to disperse across the object. Think of how an extended push will move or displace a person several feet with no damage or pain, while potentially applying significantly more force than a simple strike, which should really displace the person at all, but rather distort and damage their body locally. Speed is a big factor here. You can push someone across a room with a chopstick, or you can stab it into hem.

Think about a bullet. Fired at, say, a paper target, it will punch a hole through the target. However, take that same bullet and push it against the paper, and the paper moves, but is not punctured. Same with strikes, as we all know, intuitively at least. Same with unsharpened, round-tipped, spear shaped props.

Very cool, very impressive stuff though, that I wouldn't like to try at home...

 

[RTKDCMB]

I will say though, that it's possible for some people, like perhaps the drill guy, to actually fool themselves. I mean, he can do things that most people wouldn't attempt, and he might even not realize that he's straining against the drill in two directions, (though it seems unlikely.)

It's not that every performer of his ilk is intentionally deceiving, though most are. Some people manage to delude themselves as well.

Not to mention he's boring.