JKD Chi Sao Vs. Wing Chun Chi Sao

Discussion in 'JKD / Jeet Kune Do' started by wingchun100, Feb 2, 2017.

  1. Mou Meng Gung Fu

    Mou Meng Gung Fu Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2017
    Messages:
    340
    Likes Received:
    42
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    U.S.A.
    I practice both Chi Sao (sticking hands) and Chi Gerk (sticking legs). In the beginning, I learned Chi Sao from the basic WCK goat stance, or high horse training stance (YCKYM), without using any footwork. Later on, I learned a JKD variation of Chi Sao performed the exact same way, except from a JKD ready stance, or phasic bent knee stance (BJ), in which there was more movement. However, as I started to progress in martial arts, I learned more WCK stances and footwork. Over time, there were fewer and fewer differences between them. I would say the only difference I see now is that JKD places more weight on the front leg, while WCK places more weight on the back leg. But even then there are times when both JKD and WCK will use a 50/50 neutral stance, so I guess it really just depends on who you're training with. In the style that I practice now, both stances are included and we are allowed to use whatever stance we want, because Chi Sao and Chi Gerk are still practiced the same way regardless of style.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  2. wingchun100

    wingchun100 Senior Master

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2013
    Messages:
    3,300
    Likes Received:
    520
    Trophy Points:
    213
    Location:
    Troy NY
    No, it starts in YGKYM. We move around from there, but in JKD you are in the strong side forward stance to begin with.
     
  3. Thunder Foot

    Thunder Foot Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    390
    Likes Received:
    47
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    L.A., CA
    Ok, I didn't realize the emphasis of the starting position. So are you saying that by starting chi sau in any position other that YJKYM, one is no longer practicing WC?
     
  4. NYFIGHTSOURCE

    NYFIGHTSOURCE Yellow Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2017
    Messages:
    41
    Likes Received:
    23
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    Clifton Park, NY
    I learned t do Chi Sao initially in a JKD school. We practiced it in the YGKYM stance. From what I have seen and crossing hands with various people in Wing Chun and lineages... there really is no difference. We also trained in Chi Gerk. Also practiced being rooted and times when you might not want to be so rooted. We also practiced Chi Sao in the Bai Jong stance. 50/'50 weight with front leg bent and rear leg bent. Rear heal raised. (Typical JKD stance). The only variation to the stance was that the shoulders was squared up vs. being angled. And in this stance there is more movement with footwork. Slight angles, progression forward and back etc. It helps in training the ability to stay within a distance that you can stick to your opponent. I have seen some schools push really aggressively into one another.
    Basically... I think Chi Sao is Chi Sao. I don't think there is a difference between Wing Chun or JKD if it's being done properly and with the intent it was meant for.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. wingchun100

    wingchun100 Senior Master

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2013
    Messages:
    3,300
    Likes Received:
    520
    Trophy Points:
    213
    Location:
    Troy NY
    I guess the easiest way for me to discover would be to make it to class. :)
     
  6. FighterTwister

    FighterTwister Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2017
    Messages:
    240
    Likes Received:
    30
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Honestly, NO difference at all!

    Chi Sao - is - Chi Sao ........ its the base frame of JKD rooted in Wing Chun and devolved from the Southern Shaolin Temple Monks training on the 108 wooden dummies final test chamber, and its labeled as an exercise drill for trapping hands or aka "Sticky Hands"!

    If I may illustrate using these videos..............














    The differences you might see are only due the to difference in the partner's body frame

    E.g.

    Height, Length of arms or if they have a tendency to raise the arms covering the face or be at a more confident arm level at shoulder height, the drill is the same!

    So nothing exceeding the original form of the actual drill concept!

    Side note:- By the way they should remake that movie and produce a modern version - ( Shaolin Wooden Men (1976) )
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2017
    • Like Like x 1
  7. FighterTwister

    FighterTwister Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2017
    Messages:
    240
    Likes Received:
    30
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Yeah Chi Gerk allot of people don't talk about that its always Hubud or Chi-Sao.........





    Good post thanks!
     
  8. Bino TWT

    Bino TWT Green Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2017
    Messages:
    161
    Likes Received:
    73
    Trophy Points:
    183
    Location:
    Houston, TX
    Yes and no. In JKD Bai Jong, it is pretty standard to be strong side forward. In Wing Tsun Bai Jong, depending on lineage (and individual practitioner), sometimes they are squared up and sometimes they are strong side forward as well. But this is only a guard position. Chi Sao is STICKING from contact; you are not sticking if you are in a shifted stance and can't reach your opponent with the back hand.

    Chi Sao is an organic flowing thing, and one should not remain in a stationary position. There should be no fixed position. The Poon Sao position (the most common one seen that is used by the Yip Man branch) is only a starting position, and even that isn't set in stone. Often times, Chi Sao is initiated from no contact, so one can also train bridging and intercepting.

    Honestly the difference I generally see between Wing Tsun and JKD Chi Sao is that a lot of JKD practitioners do not have the Wing Tsun foundation and lack the depth of skills and reflexes that comes from years of Chi Sao training, so they're just kinda winging it. Some JKD schools have absolutely no Wing Tsun in them whatsoever, and are basically just a stitched up MMA that's being called JKD, and their Chi Sao is sub-par for even beginner levels.

    *Side note: The SNT stance is a training tool for beginners. You don't stand in YJKYM and fight. The farther you get in the system, the less you are restricted by the rules of the basics. If you see 2 high level practitioners, one WT and one JKD, sparring or Chi Sao'ing, it can be very difficult to tell them apart at times.

    In higher level Chi Sao, legs (Chi Gerk) and even grappling comes into play. It's all fair game. It's good to be clear with your partner about what you wish to train and establish some rules before you engage though, so they don't get mad when you kick them or take them down.

    I teach both Wing Tsun & JKD, and also do Escrima and Tai Chi. There are many overlaps in the drills/training (Chi Sao, Hubud, Tui Shou, etc), and they can all be used with or against each other.

    BTW, nice to see you here Steve. I recognized the name in your website link. We chat on FB. I just posted a Chi Sao video in the Wing Chun section here the other day, check it out.
     
    • Like Like x 1

Share This Page

Search tags for this page

various wing chun lineages