JKD Chi Sao Vs. Wing Chun Chi Sao

[wingchun100]

I imagine this might be something I have to be experience in person and cannot be expressed in words, but I figured I would ask anyway.

Aside from the "strong side forward" stance (as opposed to the basic Wing Chun front facing stance), are there any ways in which JKD Chi Sao differs from Wing Chun Chi Sao?

 

[NYFIGHTSOURCE]

Well... Unless we have someone who is both an expert in JKD and also Wing Chun we might not have a clear answer on this. I do know what you might be talking about though. There are differences in doing chi sao with people. I don't think it's a JKD or a Wing Chun that defines it different.
Yes. Some people in JKD do Chi Sao out a modified Bai Jong where they are squared up with their shoulders but their feet are in a JKD stance.

I think where the biggest difference is the energy that they put into Chi Sao. I have rolled with different people. Wing chun people, JKD people. They all have a different intent and different energy.
Take Energy for example. Some people put a lot of muscle into it. Some people are really relaxed. Some people play in chi sao and never break out of it into a boxing type of flow. Lot of people do it differently.

And what is the intent why they are doing Chi Sao. Some schools make it into a "Slapping game" Who was able to get through.
How many people are being good listeners with their arms. And for that matter with their legs if they incorporate chi sao with legs.
What is their intent...? Are they just about crashing lines that they predetermine. Are the really listening... is there a give and take in the exchange of energy.

I always like to chi sao with different people. There are many different energies. Emin Boztepe, Francis Fong, Dan Inosanto all had different energies. One of the most gifted people I rolled with is from out west. When you closed your eyes he constantly felt like he was right in front of you... but he was constantly shifting and moving at angles yet his hands and arms told you totally something different.

So Steve.... I wouldn't say there is a difference because of JKD or Wing Chun. I would say it's related to the individual and also how they were taught to do chi sao. And possibly if they forgot what they were taught they got caught up with winning or hand chasing etc...

 

[wingchun100]

Well... Unless we have someone who is both an expert in JKD and also Wing Chun we might not have a clear answer on this. I do know what you might be talking about though. There are differences in doing chi sao with people. I don't think it's a JKD or a Wing Chun that defines it different.
Yes. Some people in JKD do Chi Sao out a modified Bai Jong where they are squared up with their shoulders but their feet are in a JKD stance.

I think where the biggest difference is the energy that they put into Chi Sao. I have rolled with different people. Wing chun people, JKD people. They all have a different intent and different energy.
Take Energy for example. Some people put a lot of muscle into it. Some people are really relaxed. Some people play in chi sao and never break out of it into a boxing type of flow. Lot of people do it differently.

And what is the intent why they are doing Chi Sao. Some schools make it into a "Slapping game" Who was able to get through.
How many people are being good listeners with their arms. And for that matter with their legs if they incorporate chi sao with legs.
What is their intent...? Are they just about crashing lines that they predetermine. Are the really listening... is there a give and take in the exchange of energy.

I always like to chi sao with different people. There are many different energies. Emin Boztepe, Francis Fong, Dan Inosanto all had different energies. One of the most gifted people I rolled with is from out west. When you closed your eyes he constantly felt like he was right in front of you... but he was constantly shifting and moving at angles yet his hands and arms told you totally something different.

So Steve.... I wouldn't say there is a difference because of JKD or Wing Chun. I would say it's related to the individual and also how they were taught to do chi sao. And possibly if they forgot what they were taught they got caught up with winning or hand chasing etc...

Thanks. I have not done much Chi Sao with JKD people. One habit I noticed with the person who did Chi Sao with me was that he would often break contact instead of sticking. Every time he broke contact, I was able to fill the void with a fist or two.

In the past I was in the habit of hand chasing myself, because I was so worried about getting hit that I would focus on blocking their hands instead of controlling their core. These days I like to think that I am getting much better about that. In fact, a few weeks ago I had a couple big revelations when it comes to Chi Sao that I have been dying to put into practice, but I haven't had the chance yet.

 

[NYFIGHTSOURCE]

Some people just don't stick all the time. Some people who do jkd with go out of chi say into Hubud or various other drills where sticking it not key. It's more about finding openings in space.

Wing chin hits when there is a void. Well we all try. I have chased hands. Esp. If I did chi say against someone that I thought really want to hit me and I was feeling like they wanted to hit me hard. Mentally you get "trapped". Hahaha. Funny. You get trapped chasing hands.

Chi sao is great when you have good energy to work with. Otherwise it can be just annoying to deal with someone who is just trying to be a jerk.

 

[wingchun100]

Some people just don't stick all the time. Some people who do jkd with go out of chi say into Hubud or various other drills where sticking it not key. It's more about finding openings in space.

Wing chin hits when there is a void. Well we all try. I have chased hands. Esp. If I did chi say against someone that I thought really want to hit me and I was feeling like they wanted to hit me hard. Mentally you get "trapped". Hahaha. Funny. You get trapped chasing hands.

Chi sao is great when you have good energy to work with. Otherwise it can be just annoying to deal with someone who is just trying to be a jerk.

I get what you are saying. I have had people do that to me too, but if I control their centerline, then they can't hit anyway. They are too busy trying to regain control. I'm not saying I am a master at it, as people who are better than me WILL hit me, but I do pretty good.

I am not familiar with that thing you said there about going out of chi sao into hubud. I can't wait to see that in action!

 

[NYFIGHTSOURCE]

You can see people go from chi sao to hubud to tai chi push hands and various flow/energy drills. They try not to stay confined to chi sao.
Look on Youtube.... I am sure you will find it...
Here is one with various flows... not hubud... but you might get what I am saying about coming out of chi sao to don chi sao.

Also at 1:22 they break from Chi/trapping into Hubud.... sloppy... but a quick example..

 

[wingchun100]

Ugh...I didn't see this until now, and YouTube doesn't work from the computer I am using.

Guess I will have to see it in class.

 

[NYFIGHTSOURCE]

No worries. Well you will not really see it from me. I don't do the switching out from Chi Sao into various drills. If I train Chi Sao it's for the purpose of Chi Sao. Some JKD schools do switch in and out of various drills. Anyway..... I mentioned this... cause the original question was JKD Chi Sao vs. Wing Chun Chi Sao.
Come to think of it... I have seen people in Wing chun who go into a pak da type of roll out of chi sao.

 

[wingchun100]

That's cool. Hey, I just want to train, but in the absence of being in class (which will happen soon because I am wrapping up the last week at my part-time job), I come here to ask questions. And I have a lot. I am always questioning...but in a good way, not in a "I'm going to challenge you just to be a jerk" way.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Some people just don't stick all the time. ...
Chi sao is great when you have good energy to work with. Otherwise it can be just annoying to deal with someone who is just trying to be a jerk.

Unfortunately, that jerk may be someone who just gives you a realistic test. In fighting, you won't find that "good energy" to work with.

When you train sticky hand, you should

- guide your opponent's arm away from your entering path,
- you then enter.

So the question is, should you train unrealistic situation that you can touch your opponent's arm all the time, or should you train realistic situation that you try to touch your opponent's arm but your opponent is not cooperated with you?

In fighting, you want to

- build a bridge,
- sense your opponent's intention,
- destroy that bridge (so your opponent cannot sense you),
- borrow your opponent's force and add your own force,
- tuck your opponent's arm away from your entering path,
- you then move in.

You may only need 1/4 second from the arms contact to obtain information that you will need. IMO, that will be more realistic "sticky hands" training.

 

[NYFIGHTSOURCE]

Unfortunately, that jerk may be someone who just gives you a realistic test. In fighting, you won't find that "good energy" to work with.

When you train sticky hand, you should

- guide your opponent's arm away from your entering path,
- you then enter.

So the question is, should you train unrealistic situation that you can touch your opponent's arm all the time, or should you train realistic situation that you try to touch your opponent's arm but your opponent is not cooperated with you?

In fighting, you want to

- build a bridge,
- sense your opponent's intention,
- destroy that bridge (so your opponent cannot sense you),
- borrow your opponent's force and add your own force,
- tuck your opponent's arm away from your entering path,
- you then move in.

You may only need 1/4 second from the arms contact to obtain information that you will need. IMO, that will be more realistic "sticky hands" training.

Understand your point. You have to pressure test things. And there will be people who don't let you build a bridge.

My point was when you are learning. Training. In order to learn the correct response to a particular energy you need to work with someone that is willing to work with you. Helping you to learn that certain energy dedicates certain responses. If you are training with a jerk. Well you will never learn. But once you learn. Go test yourself against the jerk. Test your hands against various styles of fighting. See where you have advantages. See where there are disadvantages. Find your mistakes. Now go back to the person who will help you train to fill those gaps. Fix em. Now retest it.

 

[wingchun100]

I'm hoping that I will be able to do this soon enough.

 

[Vajramusti]

I imagine this might be something I have to be experience in person and cannot be expressed in words, but I figured I would ask anyway.

Aside from the "strong side forward" stance (as opposed to the basic Wing Chun front facing stance), are there any ways in which JKD Chi Sao differs from Wing Chun Chi Sao?

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Big Difference

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

And there will be people who don't let you build a bridge.

The first 30 seconds of this clip is pretty much like that.

 

[Thunder Foot]

Late to this, but I do both and I would say there is no such thing as "JKD Chi Sau".... there is only Chi Sau. Wing Chun isn't the only style that has chi sau, so why would there be a specific for JKD. One can chi sau in many different ways, and it's all simply Chi Sau.

 

[wingchun100]

Late to this, but I do both and I would say there is no such thing as "JKD Chi Sau".... there is only Chi Sau. Wing Chun isn't the only style that has chi sau, so why would there be a specific for JKD. One can chi sau in many different ways, and it's all simply Chi Sau.

Having gone to a couple JKD classes since this post, I can say there is a difference in the way it is approached.

 

[Thunder Foot]

Having gone to a couple JKD classes since this post, I can say there is a difference in the way it is approached.

And it will most likely be different with every person you train with. Just like different WC/VT lineages chi sau differently. That doesn't quantify a JKD approach, as there is no such thing.

 

[wingchun100]

And it will most likely be different with every person you train with. Just like different WC/VT lineages chi sau differently. That doesn't quantify a JKD approach, as there is no such thing.

Actually there is because, as I said in the original post, JKD does chi sao with the strong side forward, while WC does it in the basic horse stance (the one seen in Sil Lum Tao).

 

[Thunder Foot]

Actually there is because, as I said in the original post, JKD does chi sao with the strong side forward, while WC does it in the basic horse stance (the one seen in Sil Lum Tao).

I see. So are you saying in your WC chi sau you never use your legs? Or that you've only done chi sau in YJKYM and not in any of the other stances in WC/VT?

 

[Juany118]

I see. So are you saying in your WC chi sau you never use your legs? Or that you've only done chi sau in YJKYM and not in any of the other stances in WC/VT?

At least in the WC I study, chi sau with legs is called chi gerk. Chi sau is taught, typically, before chi gerk.