Jion vs Ge-Baek vs Koryo

[Kinghercules]

It took me a while to post this because Ive been searching thru out this form to see if this was already asked before I post this.
So if Ive missed it.....my bad.

The person that I had trained under was GM Ki Whang Kim and he taught Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do. GM Kim knew some of the Korean master from back in the day when TKD got started. In fact he use to teach Palgwes & Taegueks back in the day but decided that they werent a good idea and stuck to the Okinawan forms that he had learned in Japan. GM Ki Whang Kim once said "Its the quality of the froms not the quantity."

So my question is this.....Whats the reason for yall doing yall forms?

I picked Jion, Ge-Beak and Koryo because they are the 1st dan BB forms (under GM Kim Jion was a 3rd dan form but I learned it as a 1st dan) that we can compare. Ive worked at WTF and ITF schools and as I was learning their forms to teach them it was hard for me to figure out why they were doing them and the head instructors couldnt explain to me what were the reason for them to do the forms (which I found funny and sad).

So like I said Ive been looking on here for the meaning behind Koryo and Ge-Beak. And I dont mean the made up crap about it dating back to ancient Korea.

For us, those of us that do the traditional TKD & TSD forms....(this is why I argue that ITF and WTF and ATA is not traditional TKD. Tradition is what you do for generations. It is what has been passed down from person to person from generation to generation. It hasnt or it JUST had been one generation for ITF, WTF and ATA!!!)....ok back to what I was saying...LOL...our lower forms, Pians, were created out of the higher froms but in the ITF and WTF it seems to be to other way around.

So I ask...what does Ge-Beak and Koryo teach you? For us, Jion is a conditioning, power and strengthening form. They say its 400 to 500 yrs old. I never liked doing forms until I was told why. GM Kim pointed out that the techniques in Jion have been tried and tested in battle and have been proven to work. GM Cheeks use to make me do Jion all the time before I competed and he told me that him and Mike Warren use to always do Jion before they competed in tournaments. Why? Because it was for conditioning.

Maybe the schools that Ive worked at the instructors didnt think it was improtant to know why or were never taught the meaning and reasons for doing Koryo, Ge-Beak, Eui Am, Kumgang and the rest of them. For us we were all ways taught why we were doing our forms. When we were doin the Pians we were constantly told that these forms come from the higher forms and we have to master them to be able to master the higher forms.

Now a 2nd question comes to mind. As GM Kim once said "Its the quality of the froms not the quantity." So which forms are of a better quality: Koryo, Jion or Ge-Beak?

 

[MSUTKD]

PLEASE, don't feed the troll!

 

[dancingalone]

a 2nd question comes to mind. As GM Kim once said "Its the quality of the froms not the quantity." So which forms are of a better quality: Koryo, Jion or Ge-Beak?

Quality is a subjective term the way you asked your question. Most will answer with whatever form they currently practice, as it is rare for a taekwondoin to know and practice all three pattern sets, Kukkiwon, Shotokan/old kwan, and Chang Hon, to a high enough level in each style where they would be aware of what each form is supposed to teach and be able to provide even a fair subjective comparison.

If you like Jion for the solidity and directness many Japanese stylists perform it with, there is really nothing that keeps you from practicing Koryo and Gae Baek in the same way. I would not myself since I like a lighter, birdlike feeling when running Gae Beck, but certainly I could drop into deeper stances and interpret more staccato rhythm with it as in Jion if desired.

Perhaps your question should be worded differently if you want to get more answers, such as how should Koryo and Gae Baek be performed respectively? And why? Such as how some parts of your post started to discuss, before the stray 'provocative' thoughts crept in.

 

[Kinghercules]

Quality is a subjective term the way you asked your question. Most will answer with whatever form they currently practice, as it is rare for a taekwondoin to know and practice all three pattern sets, Kukkiwon, Shotokan/old kwan, and Chang Hon, to a high enough level in each style where they would be aware of what each form is supposed to teach and be able to provide even a fair subjective comparison.

If you like Jion for the solidity and directness many Japanese stylists perform it with, there is really nothing that keeps you from practicing Koryo and Gae Baek in the same way. I would not myself since I like a lighter, birdlike feeling when running Gae Beck, but certainly I could drop into deeper stances and interpret more staccato rhythm with it as in Jion if desired.

Perhaps your question should be worded differently if you want to get more answers, such as how should Koryo and Gae Baek be performed respectively? And why? Such as how some parts of your post started to discuss, before the stray 'provocative' thoughts crept in.

I dont like the way the Japanese do their forms. To me they're too robotic. I was taught to be more fluent with the movements.

You're right....now that I think about it. The only times Ive had that discussion was with ppl that knew all 3 forms.

 

[dancingalone]

I dont like the way the Japanese do their forms. To me they're too robotic. I was taught to be more fluent with the movements.

Plenty of Japanese stylists run their kata with fluidity. You can't really generalize considering the heterogeneous nature of karate.

<shrugs> If you like fluency or fluidity, certainly there are other kata from the Moo Duk Kwan canon that might express that quality more. Like Rohai/Lohai perhaps.

You're right....now that I think about it. The only times Ive had that discussion was with ppl that knew all 3 forms.

So presumably as someone who practices all three forms, why don't you tell us what you think each form should teach?

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Master Cole has a great understanding of the kukkiwon curriculum, and the history, philosophy and meanings behind the forms that they practice. I would be interested to hear more. I also know there are many on here that have a great deal of knowledge about the ITF curriculum and the history, philosophy and meanings of the ITF's forms. I think this could be an interesting discussion, as long as it remains open minded and courteous.

From my perspective, we teach Naihanchi Cho Dan and Naihanchi E Dan at 1st dan. These forms are more focused on close quarter combat and developing power with minimal movement. All forms prior to the Naihanchi's in our curriculum focus on ground reactive force generation and waist/hip torque. The Naihanchi forms require this generation with significantly less motion/movement. I make the comparison to the "3 inch punch vs. reverse punch;" both are powerful, but you need to learn the mechanics behind the reverse punch before you can master the 3 inch punch.

It details close range offensive, defensive, and grappling techniques. These are areas of focus that aren't stressed much in the forms earlier in our curriculum (pyung ahns/pinans/heians and Bassai).

The form came to Okinawa via Tomari Te by Sokon Matsumura who learned it from a Chinese man living in Tomari at that time. It has been said that the Naihanchi forms are derived from White Crane Kung Fu. Taiwanese White Crane, a.k.a. Dan Qiu Ban Bai He Quan (Half Hillock, Half White Crane Boxing) has a form called Neixi (inside knee) in Mandarin. This form includes the same sweeping action found in Naihanchi. Neixi is pronounced Nohanchi in Fuzhou dialect, which could indicate Neixi is the forerunner to Naihanchi.

The form is also taught in Shuri Te (which is how it found itself in Shotokan and Shudokan, thus the MDK).

 

[Kinghercules]

Master Cole has a great understanding of the kukkiwon curriculum, and the history, philosophy and meanings behind the forms that they practice. I would be interested to hear more. I also know there are many on here that have a great deal of knowledge about the ITF curriculum and the history, philosophy and meanings of the ITF's forms. I think this could be an interesting discussion, as long as it remains open minded and courteous.

From my perspective, we teach Naihanchi Cho Dan and Naihanchi E Dan at 1st dan. These forms are more focused on close quarter combat and developing power with minimal movement. All forms prior to the Naihanchi's in our curriculum focus on ground reactive force generation and waist/hip torque. The Naihanchi forms require this generation with significantly less motion/movement. I make the comparison to the "3 inch punch vs. reverse punch;" both are powerful, but you need to learn the mechanics behind the reverse punch before you can master the 3 inch punch.

It details close range offensive, defensive, and grappling techniques. These are areas of focus that aren't stressed much in the forms earlier in our curriculum (pyung ahns/pinans/heians and Bassai).

The form came to Okinawa via Tomari Te by Sokon Matsumura who learned it from a Chinese man living in Tomari at that time. It has been said that the Naihanchi forms are derived from White Crane Kung Fu. Taiwanese White Crane, a.k.a. Dan Qiu Ban Bai He Quan (Half Hillock, Half White Crane Boxing) has a form called Neixi (inside knee) in Mandarin. This form includes the same sweeping action found in Naihanchi. Neixi is pronounced Nohanchi in Fuzhou dialect, which could indicate Neixi is the forerunner to Naihanchi.

The form is also taught in Shuri Te (which is how it found itself in Shotokan and Shudokan, thus the MDK).

Yeah I like Naihanchi. For Ki Whang Kim Niahanchi 1 was taught at brown belt level and 2 was another 1st dan form we learned. I was told also that they are forms for ground and close fighting.

 

[Kinghercules]

Plenty of Japanese stylists run their kata with fluidity. You can't really generalize considering the heterogeneous nature of karate.

<shrugs> If you like fluency or fluidity, certainly there are other kata from the Moo Duk Kwan canon that might express that quality more. Like Rohai/Lohai perhaps.



So presumably as someone who practices all three forms, why don't you tell us what you think each form should teach?

I dont practice those forms. I learned Koryo and Ge-Beak out of necessity.

 

[dancingalone]

I dont practice those forms. I learned Koryo and Ge-Beak out of necessity.

Gae Baek was the hyung I learned long ago as part of my 2nd dan TKD requirements. We didn't perform it on a mono-count rhythm seen so often today. The form requires the ability to hit stances quickly and concisely along with tight control of the hand and arm positioning since there are body spinning and quick kicking that magnifies any inefficiency one might have in those aspects. This is one of those forms where nothing really looks that difficult in isolation, but if you can perform it without looking sloppy, you have some real skill and hours of practice behind you. It's a little like Chinto/Gankaku in that respect.

 

[mastercole]

It took me a while to post this because Ive been searching thru out this form to see if this was already asked before I post this.
So if Ive missed it.....my bad.

The person that I had trained under was GM Ki Whang Kim and he taught Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do. GM Kim knew some of the Korean master from back in the day when TKD got started. In fact he use to teach Palgwes & Taegueks back in the day but decided that they werent a good idea and stuck to the Okinawan forms that he had learned in Japan. GM Ki Whang Kim once said "Its the quality of the froms not the quantity."

I never met any American born practitioner that spoke for GM KIM Ki Whang. Are you unique, or are there other American born practitioners that speak for him as well? BTW, what was the date when he passed away?

So my question is this.....Whats the reason for yall doing yall forms?

Personally I learned, practice and teach the Kukkiwon Poomsae because my teachers teacher, GM LEE Chong Woo and "Taekwondo Jidokwan, Korea" recommends it. I trust their judgement. I have a lot of additional confidence in their recommendation as I realize that all the other Kwan's, and their knowledgeable seniors, also recommend the Kukkiwon curriculum, a curriculum with they all jointly participated in creating.

I picked Jion, Ge-Beak and Koryo because they are the 1st dan BB forms (under GM Kim Jion was a 3rd dan form but I learned it as a 1st dan) that we can compare. Ive worked at WTF and ITF schools and as I was learning their forms to teach them it was hard for me to figure out why they were doing them and the head instructors couldnt explain to me what were the reason for them to do the forms (which I found funny and sad).

I don't know what to say, maybe explain that is is funny and sad to GM Holloway, his answer would be better than mine.

So like I said Ive been looking on here for the meaning behind Koryo and Ge-Beak. And I dont mean the made up crap about it dating back to ancient Korea.

Can you provide details of what you are talking about? Specifically, point by point, then maybe we can discuss it, in detail. Thanks.

For us, those of us that do the traditional TKD & TSD forms....(this is why I argue that ITF and WTF and ATA is not traditional TKD. Tradition is what you do for generations. It is what has been passed down from person to person from generation to generation. It hasnt or it JUST had been one generation for ITF, WTF and ATA!!!)....ok back to what I was saying...LOL...our lower forms, Pians, were created out of the higher froms but in the ITF and WTF it seems to be to other way around.

There is no such thing as "traditional" Taekwondo as Taekwondo has been in a continuous state of evolution since the name was accepted. Taekwondo has not sat in one frozen state long enough to be considered traditional. However, Taekwondo does have it's traditions. As for "Tang Soo Do", the same applies, Tang Soo Do has an continues to evolve from the time of the first use of that Korean term, to this very day.

Also, it appears to me that you are confusing the WTF with the Kukkiwon. Which one are you really talking about here?

So I ask...what does Ge-Beak and Koryo teach you? For us, Jion is a conditioning, power and strengthening form.

Your Sabumnim teaches you the principle, not the form. The form provides us a practice routine to practice that principle when our instructor is not around. Conditioning, power and strength are not uniquely applied Jion Kata, those qualities and many other, are applied in many forms.

They say its 400 to 500 yrs old.

How sure are you? Someone could say that what "they" say is "crap." What then?

I never liked doing forms until I was told why. GM Kim pointed out that the techniques in Jion have been tried and tested in battle and have been proven to work.

Which battle fields? By whom?

GM Cheeks use to make me do Jion all the time before I competed and he told me that him and Mike Warren use to always do Jion before they competed in tournaments. Why? Because it was for conditioning.

Was this before sparring, or forms? When you were doing Jion before competitions, in what way do you think it was conditioning you?

Maybe the schools that Ive worked at the instructors didnt think it was improtant to know why or were never taught the meaning and reasons for doing Koryo, Ge-Beak, Eui Am, Kumgang and the rest of them.

Maybe. Instead of asking us about those instructors seeming lack of knowledge, I recommend that you take it up with them, after all, if they are ignorant of their martial art as you say, you might actually help them to dig deeper and find out what all the stuff they do actually means, right?

For us we were all ways taught why we were doing our forms. When we were doin the Pians we were constantly told that these forms come from the higher forms and we have to master them to be able to master the higher forms.

OK. In your mind, what would you consider mastery of a form?

Now a 2nd question comes to mind. As GM Kim once said "Its the quality of the froms not the quantity." So which forms are of a better quality: Koryo, Jion or Ge-Beak?

I practiced martial arts in the 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's, 00's & 10's, (wow, that is within 6 decades) I learned those three forms, and the forms that accompany them. To me, one is not better than the other. It is the knowledge and skill one has while reviewing the form that is of better, or lesser quality.

 

[mastercole]

Originally Posted by SahBumNimRush
Master Cole has a great understanding of the kukkiwon curriculum, and the history, philosophy and meanings behind the forms that they practice. I would be interested to hear more. I also know there are many on here that have a great deal of knowledge about the ITF curriculum and the history, philosophy and meanings of the ITF's forms. I think this could be an interesting discussion, as long as it remains open minded and courteous.

From my perspective, we teach Naihanchi Cho Dan and Naihanchi E Dan at 1st dan. These forms are more focused on close quarter combat and developing power with minimal movement. All forms prior to the Naihanchi's in our curriculum focus on ground reactive force generation and waist/hip torque. The Naihanchi forms require this generation with significantly less motion/movement. I make the comparison to the "3 inch punch vs. reverse punch;" both are powerful, but you need to learn the mechanics behind the reverse punch before you can master the 3 inch punch.

It details close range offensive, defensive, and grappling techniques. These are areas of focus that aren't stressed much in the forms earlier in our curriculum (pyung ahns/pinans/heians and Bassai).

The form came to Okinawa via Tomari Te by Sokon Matsumura who learned it from a Chinese man living in Tomari at that time. It has been said that the Naihanchi forms are derived from White Crane Kung Fu. Taiwanese White Crane, a.k.a. Dan Qiu Ban Bai He Quan (Half Hillock, Half White Crane Boxing) has a form called Neixi (inside knee) in Mandarin. This form includes the same sweeping action found in Naihanchi. Neixi is pronounced Nohanchi in Fuzhou dialect, which could indicate Neixi is the forerunner to Naihanchi.

The form is also taught in Shuri Te (which is how it found itself in Shotokan and Shudokan, thus the MDK).

Yeah I like Naihanchi. For Ki Whang Kim Niahanchi 1 was taught at brown belt level and 2 was another 1st dan form we learned. I was told also that they are forms for ground and close fighting.

Niahanchi, Tekki, or Chulki 1, 2 & 3. Those were my favorites of those related forms. In your opinion, What principles should one be using while reviewing those 3 forms, meaning what is actually happening, philosophically and physically between those actions of movement and the ending technique shapes that are created by specific actions?

 

[mastercole]

Gae Baek was the hyung I learned long ago as part of my 2nd dan TKD requirements. We didn't perform it on a mono-count rhythm seen so often today. The form requires the ability to hit stances quickly and concisely along with tight control of the hand and arm positioning since there are body spinning and quick kicking that magnifies any inefficiency one might have in those aspects. This is one of those forms where nothing really looks that difficult in isolation, but if you can perform it without looking sloppy, you have some real skill and hours of practice behind you. It's a little like Chinto/Gankaku in that respect.

Which makes comparing the three, and odd comparison to me since Jion only has two basic front kicks.

 

[dancingalone]

Which makes comparing the three, and odd comparison to me since Jion only has two basic front kicks.

To me also, but I'm rolling with it. You likely know this already, but Jion is around a 3rd-2nd kyu pattern in Shotokan karate. Nonetheless, it's considered one of the quintessential Shotokan kata.

 

[TKDinAK]

So my question is this.....Whats the reason for yall doing yall forms?

For what it's worth... which isn't much at this point, since I am still just a green belt and my school is ITF... my instructor tells us that if we wish to get better at any aspect of our TKD skillset... power, balance, focus, spirit... etc... we should work on our patterns.

On a personal note, I enjoy patterns... and work hard at them. I know that by the time I am through Chon Ji, Dan Gun, Do San and Won Hyo, I am breathing hard and sweating profusely.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Niahanchi, Tekki, or Chulki 1, 2 & 3. Those were my favorites of those related forms. In your opinion, What principles should one be using while reviewing those 3 forms, meaning what is actually happening, philosophically and physically between those actions of movement and the ending technique shapes that are created by specific actions?

I can chime in on this, but I'm interested in hearing what Mr. Hercules has to say about the subject.. .

 

[Kinghercules]

I never met any American born practitioner that spoke for GM KIM Ki Whang. Are you unique, or are there other American born practitioners that speak for him as well? BTW, what was the date when he passed away?

Oh really? Well allow me to introduce myself then.
I can introduce you to Albert Cheeks, Kyu Sang, John Critzos, Marcella Byrd, Ray Lee.......there're a lot of Ki Whang Kim's students in America (so I assumin that you know Korean students then) that can speak for him.
He passed back in '93 in Sept.

I practiced martial arts in the 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's, 00's & 10's, (wow, that is within 6 decades) I learned those three forms, and the forms that accompany them. To me, one is not better than the other. It is the knowledge and skill one has while reviewing the form that is of better, or lesser quality.

You know what......this is all you had to say.

 

[mastercole]

Oh really? Well allow me to introduce myself then.
I can introduce you to Albert Cheeks, Kyu Sang, John Critzos, Marcella Byrd, Ray Lee.......there're a lot of Ki Whang Kim's students in America (so I assumin that you know Korean students then) that can speak for him. He passed back in '93 in Sept.

OK, please, introduce yourself. I am Al Cole from Cleveland, Ohio USA, and you are?

I was planning to attend, however changing circumstances got in the way. I did though send my sympathies and seniors showed me some photos of attendees.

You know what......this is all you had to say.

I did have some questions for you though, they are back in my original response to your comments. If care to discuss them, I think we can learn a lot more about the subject at hand.

 

[Kinghercules]

OK, please, introduce yourself. I am Al Cole from Cleveland, Ohio USA, and you are?

I was planning to attend, however changing circumstances got in the way. I did though send my sympathies and seniors showed me some photos of attendees.




I did have some questions for you though, they are back in my original response to your comments. If care to discuss them, I think we can learn a lot more about the subject at hand.

Yeah I know....I ignored your questions. You're like a philosophy prof. You wanna analyze every sentence that a person says and try to find fault in it. Example, lets take the one I mentioned about Jion bein 500yrs old. You wanna know what if the person that told me was lyin by askin me "how sure are you". IDK about you but I was always told that if you cant trust or believe in you instructor then you dont need to be trainin with them. Now since my teacher told me the story behind Jion, about it being 500yrs old and comin from China, I believed him and with access to the internet you can look it up yourself. Since neither one of us lived back then it just comes down to whether or not you believe it. Dont question me....question the ppl that has done the research. Question Itosu, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gichin_FunakoshiFunakoshi or Matsumura. They're the ones that started the "sayin".

 

[Kinghercules]

Was this before sparring, or forms? When you were doing Jion before competitions, in what way do you think it was conditioning you?

I didnt say that Jion was the only form for power or conditioning. I just used it as an example.
In what way do I know that Jion was conditioning me? You havent done Jion....have you, Master?
We do this form before the tournament. GM Cheeks use to make me do Jion 6 times in a row, with no brake in between at full power. His theory is "if you can do Jion 6x in a row then you are in shape." He told me how Ki Whang use to make his do Jion 5x eryday before class.
I was told that Jion is for power and conditioning. You develop power and strength when you do it correctly. As martial artist we dont focus on lifting alot of weight get strength but as a master you know this already.
Dont you......Master? :mst:

 

[StudentCarl]

PLEASE, don't feed the troll!

With the rude comments, it's looking more like MSUTKD was right.