Jesse Ventura, just a tad crazy?

[Bob Hubbard]

Got it. (For multiquote, start with the first post and click the "+ icon at the bottom right of each post, then on the last post hit the "reply with quote button.



My solutions:
For cops: Do a better job weeding out the small number of asshats in the ranks, quicker. Better communications in-house, and more training to keep everyone upto date on the law. You'd have less problems, better pr and save money for taxpayers. Over simplified solution, but it's somewhat off topic here.

For airports:
- Tie into government databases to -verify- id, not just match faces and names.
- Hire -law enforcement- to handle this step at least. Covers privacy concerns in not allowing civilian non-cop screeners access to government databases.
- Use a somewhat Israeli solution combining what works there with what works here, with a filtering system so that the 95% of travelers who are non-risk are quickly through non-invasive screening. Focus on the 5% that are more of a risk with more intense methods.
- Better train the people screening. As-is, they are not well trained, their own internal policies are confusing and no 2 screeners have the same answer to the same question.

Also, if sippy cups, juice boxes, water bottles and snow globes are really threats, why aren't they treated as such after surrender, but instead are left for Walt the Janitor to clean up at the end of the night?

 

[ballen0351]

You missed my point.
But, I am sick of the couple hundred corrupt cops out there, So am I makes my job harder
the couple thousand 'decent but too lazy to do their jobs right' who make up crap as they go because they missed the last 5 department memos on how to behave, Im not sure what you mean by "make something up". Ive never made stuff up and If I ever saw someone doing that I would take care of that problem.
and the 10 thousand or so who -aren't up to date- on laws because they weren't properly trained/informed/updated so make honest mistakes, but end up causing PR issues and tax payers money in settlements that could have been easily avoided. Not in every case but there are alot of issues that are a gray area. You will have different rulings from different courts saying different things on he same issue. For example The 7th circuit may rule you cant search a persons cell phone incident to arrest, and the 4th circut may say your can. So you are going to use the law thats more favorable to you. You get to court and the judge decides he likes the 7th circuit better then the 4th so your case is thrown out. Until the Supreme Court rules there are alot of laws that are interpreted many different ways on the same issue. Also we get our legal opinions from our states atty office and they have the final say. So we depend on them for what to do and not to do. Up until LAST WEEK we were still told filming police in this state violated our wire tap laws. It wasnt until LAST WEEK the changed the opinion and now say as long as we are in public we are fair game. The only reason they even changed it was in part a request by me to look into the issue and that was because of this site that I asked for an updated decision on the matter.

So, point by point:
"Cop stops you" I have to stop if a cop stops me right?
Depends.
"it's your word against the 4 responding cars as to what was 'in plain sight'." Am I wrong? Has there ever been a case where 4 cops say they saw something, an individual say they didn't and a court found the cops were wrong, based only on the word of all involved?
I guess its possible its never hppened to me. and Ive never seen it happen. I dont lie if I say I saw it then I saw it. I also would never lie for another officer and say I saw something I didnt. Ive lost cases where I have done something I believe was correct and a judge decided it wasnt.
If a cop says "stop taking pictures" with the reason "it's illegal" when in fact it is legal, is that a "lawful order"?
Not a lawful order but sometimes the situation gets out of hand due to the photographer wanting to push the officers buttons just so it can get on tape and post it on youtube. I would suggest you tell the officer you want a supervisor and talk to them. Most of the time if the cop is doing something worth recording they are already on edge dealing with the issue they are not just standing around doing nothing. Its no excuse but in the heat of the moment you have things going 5 million miles an hour some people dont think clearly not right but we are only humans we have emotions.
If a cop takes my camera and deletes the photos on it, is that not "destroying evidence"?
evidence of what?
If a cop takes my camera when he has no legal right to do so, is that not "stealing"?
Depends on why he took it. Again I would ask for a supervisor
If a cop smacks my camera down, or out of my hands, is that not "assault"?
Sure and you should file a complaint

Where was I wrong?

Take it all as an attack on cops, or take it as an attack on corruption and stupidity.
The post was an attack on cops but it was more tounge and cheek then a serious complaint and so was my response to it
Don't matter to me, I'll still get 10 votes for President in 2012.

..

 

[ballen0351]

My solutions:
For cops: Do a better job weeding out the small number of asshats in the ranks, quicker. Better communications in-house, and more training to keep everyone upto date on the law. You'd have less problems, better pr and save money for taxpayers. Over simplified solution, but it's somewhat off topic here.

I agree with that and I believe we have gotten alot better in the last 15 to 20 years then we were about policing our own.

For airports:
- Tie into government databases to -verify- id, not just match faces and names.
- Hire -law enforcement- to handle this step at least. Covers privacy concerns in not allowing civilian non-cop screeners access to government databases.
- Use a somewhat Israeli solution combining what works there with what works here, with a filtering system so that the 95% of travelers who are non-risk are quickly through non-invasive screening. Focus on the 5% that are more of a risk with more intense methods.
- Better train the people screening. As-is, they are not well trained, their own internal policies are confusing and no 2 screeners have the same answer to the same question.

I agree with alot of that and im not saying our system is perfect as it is. It can greatly be improved. I think it sould be totally farmed out to private security compaines not fed govt employees. Make a private company responsible and if things slip thru fine them they would do a better, more efficent and cheaper job then the Govt ever could. But the question was are the searches itself unconstitutional and I say its not but im also not a Constitutional scholar.
My only problem with the israeli system and Im by no means an expert in the Israeli Airport security and Im way over simplifying it, is it depends heavily on profiles and non-verbal clues. Profiling in this county is a dirty word and is fought tooth and nail. Anytime I arrest a minorty one of the first questions Im asked by a def. atty is "isnt it true you started watching my client because he fit the profile of a dealer and thats the only reason you were watching him" We are now required to fill out racial profiling data sheet on all our traffic stops and send that data to the justice department just to prove were not "profiling"
Another problem with that is there are so many organizations out there that would like to hurt us including our own home grown American citizens who could easily not fit the profile were looking for.

Also, if sippy cups, juice boxes, water bottles and snow globes are really threats, why aren't they treated as such after surrender, but instead are left for Walt the Janitor to clean up at the end of the night?

I personally believe they dont let you bring that stuff into the airport so you have to buy a new bottle of water or snow globe ect once inside the airport. I always found it amusing you cant carry on an unopened bottle of say wine but can go thru security walk to the duty free shop and buy the same bottle there and carry that one on the plane.

 

[jks9199]

So if a town adds a line that you are subject to be searched on their 'Welcome to...' sign, then it is your contention that any LEO could strip down your car?

No. Different situation. I consider the consent aspect to be a secondary aspect; the search prior to flying at the airport is reasonable as I said above. Random searches of people simply walking about a town is not reasonable, and any legitimate public interest or goal involved could be served in less intrusive ways.

 

[CanuckMA]

@ballen

While Israeli security somewhat relies on profiling, it most heavily relies on non-verbal cues. I'm a white, obviously Orthodox Jew and i get questioned often enough. It does not slow down the process as a lot of the watching/interviewing is done while you are already witing in a line. It is SOP for security officers to pull people out of the check-in line to talk to them. The questions are sometimes pointed, often trivial. In a good number of cases, the person questioned is not the person of interest. You are pulled out of line while other officers observe the reaction of the real target. Eye contact is always maintained. And plain clothes security is also observing in the secure area of the airport.

It is scalable to other airports. It would require more, better trained pesonnel. That would increase the cost of air travel. When everybody demands return cross country travel for $99.99, you get the security you deserve.

 

[jks9199]

Court house - Attorneys walk -around- the detectors with closed briefs all the time. Cops too.
Government offices - Saw several folks avoid any screening there too.
Banks - never saw anyone patted down, forced to take their belt an shoes off and put through detectors before getting access at the bank. I wouldn't use any that did that either.
Stores - Any store that tries to search me better have a real cop there, and will be getting an earful.

Banks and stores generally deal with different security concerns, and handle them in a different way. Hence, in many banks now, you talk to the teller through an inch and a half of plastic...

As to folks who bypass security -- every organization has people that are trusted. You see it at the airport, with airport employees. Cops, court employees, and members of the bar at that court are generally exempted. They're known and have been vetted.

Lets be frank, they are missing 12" razors, loaded hand guns, and bowie knives by the hundreds. Thousands of people are getting on planes with the wrong tickets, expired tickets, even no tickets, despite a minimum of -4- screening layers.
But they're catching drug users (not security issue), old ladies (not security issue), and campaign managers carrying large amounts of cash (not security issue).

So it must be working right?

The current screening model has lots of problems. One of the biggest is who they're getting to do a lot of it... and how little training they're getting, combined with how inconsistent their training and policies are. Add rules and policies that are responding to two threats back -- ineffectively -- and it's a mess. They've got the same people fulfilling duties that are almost contradictory.

But the scale of the system is a major hurdle, as well. The larger airports deal with passenger counts in the tens of millions. That's not counting the horde that comes to pick up Aunt Susie, the employees, vehicle traffic like taxis, shuttle buses, and limos/hired cars. Or cargo and general aviation traffic at the airport. Your larger national or international airports are really small to mid-size cities...

 

[ballen0351]

Banks and stores generally deal with different security concerns, and handle them in a different way. Hence, in many banks now, you talk to the teller through an inch and a half of plastic...

I walked into a bank the other day and I could not physically see any employees. You walk into the lobby and then get into a little phone booth looking thing and you interact with the teller on a TV screen and you put your stuff in the little tube just like the drive thru. It was kinda creepy I didnt like it at all.

 

[jks9199]

Now, lets go back to -airport- security.

4 main screening points.
The ticket counter
The ID check
The xray machine
The gate check.

Ticket counter.
Currently requires you use the same credit card you used to buy to check in with.
Doesn't do anything really as you can pass off the card to someone else before continuing on.
Counter clerk takes your ID for a looksie. They are matching faces, not verifying it's real ID.
Test runs with fake ID have breached this 100% of the time.

The ticket counter is barely a security check. It's a ticket counter; the goal is to ensure that folks buy tickets and drop off baggage. They're not really verifying the validity of an ID, just that the names and faces match.

The ID check.
TSA goon takes your ticket and ID, gives them a bored glance, matches the -names-, scribbles something on your ticket and passes you along.
Fake ID and in fact fake tickets, near 100% success rate breaching this stage.
As effective as the guy at the door of the membership club with the hole punch.

Staffed by people who are dealing with huge numbers of travelers and trying to get people through to the next stage with the proper materials more than an actual security check. They'll turn you around if you don't have a ticket... but that's it. And often, in my experience, staffed by idiots. Sometimes who don't even speak English. (I tried to accompany my wife and son who was at the time straddling the toddler/infant line as far as the magnetometer once. I showed my LEO credentials, and made it clear that I wasn't trying to actually enter the secure cordon, just help her manage things to get through it. He didn't recognize what the creds were... despite the fact that they say POLICE.)

Again -- it's a minimal security checkpoint, primarily intended to facilitate processing to the primary checkpoint.

The Xray machines.
Harder to fool. Relies on bored and complacent or poorly trained screeners to breach.
Test runs by random 3rd party have an over 70% failure rate (meaning security is breached).
TSA tests run by known testers at scheduled times are 100% successful. I wonder why.
Real world failure rate estimated to be upwards of 40%

This is the primary checkpoint. They're supposed to be doing a couple things here: checking identity docs, checking boarding docs to say that you're supposed to be going through, and screening for dangerous contraband. While getting people through on time. Yeah -- lot going on, limited time, and lots of pressure. This has led to relying on a lot of technology (magnetometers, X-ray, body scanners...) and some nutty policies like taking your shoes off.

Let's look at a couple of the issues. Verifying identity documents. There is no national ID card. Each state has it's own -- and, typically, has a couple of valid versions at any given time. DMV photos are often a joke; I know people who are using 10 to 15 year old photos on their ID because they've renewed by mail the last few times. Raise your hand if you still look just like your picture from 10 years ago... Yeah, you're probably still recognizable -- unless you've shaved or added a beard, for example. Honestly, I recognize the "right" ID from about 6 or 8 states reliably. I've got cheat books, and I rely on being able to run the license. So... now we've got a TSA agent who's trying to match a photo that's about 1 inch square against you as you go through the magnetometer and read the name on the boarding pass. And monitor the signals from the magnetometer, too. Busy guy, huh?

Meanwhile, you've got someone checking your carry-on luggage for contraband. Here they're really trusting that the tech will catch things. I'll tell you right now -- I can take about 8 things off the top of my head through that they wouldn't bat an eye at, and that would be a world of unpleasantness on the plane were I to choose to use them. Some are things that are harmless till combined. Others are just things that aren't obviously dangerous but can be modified to be very dangerous with little effort. On top of that, they're also looking for smuggling illegal stuff like drugs. Another pretty busy person.

The gate check.
Simply matches the face on the ID and the name on the ID with the name on the ticket.
Failure rate here is under 5%, and usually results in someone getting on the wrong plane.

Again, the primary purpose here is not really security -- it's getting the person onto the flight. And making sure that they don't get the wrong person on the flight -- namely someone who didn't pay. This "checkpoint" is really unchanged from the old days of completely open terminals, and is still primarily aimed at preventing stowaways and overboarding.

Now, the -law enforcement- folks here can easily spot a few holes I'm sure.
Like, when was the ID ran against government databases to check validity?

It's theater. It's not effective. It's a waste of money, time and manpower to screen as we are.

There are a number of less invasive, less annoying, less inefficient ways to secure air travel, while not making old men take off their shoes and little kids go without their juice. That's my point, that's Jesse's, that's a lot of peoples point.

I agree. There are a lot of things that can be improved in the system. But how well can they be grafted onto the existing physical structures? How many airports have had to do some pretty extensive renovations over the last 10 years to adapt to the new security procedures? I remember going to pick my cousin up at the airport when we were kids, and waiting for him at the gate, where he got off the plane. Can't do that anymore... not without arranging a gate pass.

Look at the fuss over the Real ID Act... which basically pushed to get some consistency in ID formats, and make sure that the government isn't issuing ID cards to people who don't have a legal right to be in the country.

How much time are you willing to spend getting into the airport? Dulles International Airport recommends allowing a minimum of 2 hours for domestic flights and 3 hours for international -- and at peak times, even longer. Let's say we just split some of those tasks at the main checkpoint out. You have one agent whose job is to look at your ID, ask a question or two to confirm it, and match it against a boarding pass -- which gets validated. Another agent's job is only handling the physical screening of the passenger. A third handles the carry-on luggage screening. I'd add some actual LEOs to deal with discoveries and agents (LEO or not is debatable) to do follow-up screening for questionable travelers. First catch: we now need more TSA agents, and we need to actually train them. Second catch: time. Figure on this adding 10 minutes at a SWAG to screening. Third catch: traveler volume, and impacts of volume on time.

There aren't easy solutions. The current process needs help -- but solutions have to be workable, too.

 

[jks9199]

Breaking apart a quote:

vBulletin uses square brackets to identify commands; the command turns it on, and a backslash turns it off. I'm going to deliberately misspell "quote" as "qoute" so that the tags show up to show you here.

[qoute] turns on the quote. [/qoute] turns it off.

So, using part of your post:

[QouTE=Bob Hubbard;1441710]Funny side bar. I was in court waiting on my ex to show up a few years ago. She set off the metal detector. Cause - underwire bra with enough metal to build a grill in it. (ok, slight exaggeration there). I don't know who was more embarrassed, her or the county cop who had to ask and wand her. Was the high point of that day.[/qoute]
My wife was a deputy for a while and did court security for a few months and the stuff people bring in was always funny. Little tip people when your coming to court for a drug case remember and you empty your pockets before entering the metal detector leave your bag of crack in the car.

[qoute]Court house - Attorneys walk -around- the detectors with closed briefs all the time. Cops too. [/qoute]
not all court houses. Our circuit court house only people that are allowed to bypass security is uniformed officers and court house staff with a proper security badge. I work plain clothes I cant even bring a gun in the court house even if I show them my bagde and ID.

will produce (if you spell quote properly):

Funny side bar. I was in court waiting on my ex to show up a few years ago. She set off the metal detector. Cause - underwire bra with enough metal to build a grill in it. (ok, slight exaggeration there). I don't know who was more embarrassed, her or the county cop who had to ask and wand her. Was the high point of that day.

My wife was a deputy for a while and did court security for a few months and the stuff people bring in was always funny. Little tip people when your coming to court for a drug case remember and you empty your pockets before entering the metal detector leave your bag of crack in the car.

Court house - Attorneys walk -around- the detectors with closed briefs all the time. Cops too.

not all court houses. Our circuit court house only people that are allowed to bypass security is uniformed officers and court house staff with a proper security badge. I work plain clothes I cant even bring a gun in the court house even if I show them my bagde and ID.

To make it easier to identify here -- I actually enclosed the whole mess I was showing in a quote balloon, too. Hope it's not confusing. (For that, I just highlighted the stuff, and clicked on the word balloon looking button)

 

[Carol]

.the only reason they even changed it was in part a request by me to look into the issue and that was because of this site that I asked for an updated decision on the matter.
.

:asian:

Not a lawful order but sometimes the situation gets out of hand due to the photographer wanting to push the officers buttons just so it can get on tape and post it on youtube. I would suggest you tell the officer you want a supervisor and talk to them. Most of the time if the cop is doing something worth recording they are already on edge dealing with the issue they are not just standing around doing nothing. Its no excuse but in the heat of the moment you have things going 5 million miles an hour some people dont think clearly not right but we are only humans we have emotions.

We're all human.

The concerns Bob Hubbard and I have aren't restricted to filming live police encounters as they happen. They include taking pictures other public places and having an officer stop us. To tie this in to the subject of the TSA -- they put out a poster literally saying "Don't let our planes get in to the wrong hands. If you see something, call your local law enforcement" and the subject of the photo was a guy with a zoom lens photographing a regional jet from behind a chain link fence.

If someone says I shoot photos of waterfalls, I sound like a nature lover. If someone says I shoot photos of power plants, that can sound really bad (especially framed by the TSA's example)....even though a waterfall and a hydro plant can be the same thing. I don't want to capture anything on youtube. I don't want to capture people suffering. I don't want to give anyone a hard time, and I certainly don't want to get arrested -- I work with over 100 LE agencies, that kind of press I don't need. :lol:

I think it helps to have conversations like we are having here, and sharing perspectives. But it really frustrates me that on a grander scale, the "conversation" takes place by those screaming the loudest...many of whom do not take a favourable view to LE or LEOs. I wish that wasn't so.

 

[elder999]

So, Vegas was fun: Terry Fator, Cirque du Soleil’s "Love," the Phantom of the Opera for the umpteenth time, steaks at Gallagher’s for the umpteenth time, Carlos Santana at the Hard Rock, where we stayed-and it’s really cool, almost like a museum. And I got to see Marquez get robbed of a draw by Paquiao. Even got a little training and a little less gambling in.
Sadly, I didn’t wear my kilt-it was partly business for Rita, whose presentation went well, and I didn’t need to disrupt it. Instead, I decided to conduct an stealthy experiment-one I was quite confident as to what the results would be.

It probably doesn’t come as a surprise to some of you that over the last 30 years or so, I’ve developed a catalogue of techniques using the pen as a weapon: methods of deployment, wielding, etc. Interestingly, it took about that long for the industry to truly catch up with me, and come up with the "tactical pen." These things range in price from $25 to about $300, if you can believe that-though most of them are just a heavy hunk of aluminum with a no slip grip, and sharp points. This

is the "Uzi" tactical pen. Retails for about $25. It’s quite servicable, both as a pen, and as an object I’ve driven through 3/8" plywood, a rack of pork ribs, and into a pork shoulder several times. At some point I’ll post more about using these pens, as well as several fountain pens, as weapons, and some of the tests I’ve conducted, but first my experiment, documented in a photo essay I’ll call The Deadly Pen and Friends Go To Vegas."

That’s right-the TSA sucks. :lfao:

I first took the pen aboard in my laptop case, though I brought it home in my jacket:

And, along with my restricted size carry on toiletries:

I brought this:

which is about the most powerful pepper spray that a civilian can buy.


Ironically, the pepper spray is illegal to possess in Clark County-though I could legally carry my pistol there-so it didn’t get much of a tour, and stayed in the Hard Rock. In fact, it stayed there-I don’t really care much for pepper spray, and just bought this stuff to make a point. The pen though,

made the point pretty well for me. :lfao:
In all seriousness, don’t do this-not only did I have every confidence in succeeding, but extraordinary means to get myself out of trouble if I didn’t-and, really, the pepper spray was the only real problem, as I could easily have plead forgetfulness, and given up the pen if they’d pointed it out, but they didn’t even bat an eye. I won’t even get into the variety of pen-type objects that conceal knives, firearms, and those that disperse chemicals.

As far as those "volume restricted liquids" go, the 3.4 oz liquid limit in oil, like brake fluid, and another common and easily available substance, milled to look like talcum powder-on which there is no volume restriction-when combined, result in a rather energetic reaction: the immediate release of toxic gas, followed shortly by an explosion.

If someone wants to bring the planes down, and is willing to sacrifice themselves to do so, and isn't quite as stupid as the shoe and underwear bombers, well, they will.

I have no objection to searches for flights. I have no objection to reasonable restrictions for safety.In the case of the TSA, though, neither are truly effective. They are psuedo-security psychodrama, intended to let you all think the government is doing something and that it’s for our own good. It doesn’t accomplish anything, except to make the public accustomed to it. Consequently, John is quite right-when another incident occurs, and I have no doubt that eventually one will. It doesn't really take much of a genius to figure out how to blow up a plane that you’re riding in, for example-and the other public .soft targets are just waiting for someone with the will and the means.Then the drama will be ratcheted up, and such procedures will be implemented in a variety of public places-the government doing something for our own good. And there’s really nothing to be done about it-it’s a foregone conclusion.

Oh, and as I’ve demonstrated-the TSA sucks. :lfao:

 

[Bob Hubbard]

If it wasn't for the TSA, that kid who always was seen eating his boogers and jars of paste wouldn't have a job.

 

[Carol]

And I got to see Marquez get robbed of a draw by Paquiao.

Oh man.....great fight, but an ugggggly decision. I'm a big Pacquiao fan, watching him fight reminds me of how much I love boxing. Seeing the judging reminds me of how much I hate it. I actually thought it would be Marquez by decision.

I've had no issues flying with the Executive Defender either. Haven't had to blink the baby blues with an innocent "Yes, I'm an executive...." line yet

 

[ballen0351]

So, Vegas was fun: Terry Fator, Cirque du Soleil’s "Love," the Phantom of the Opera for the umpteenth time, steaks at Gallagher’s for the umpteenth time, Carlos Santana at the Hard Rock, where we stayed-and it’s really cool, almost like a museum. And I got to see Marquez get robbed of a draw by Paquiao. Even got a little training and a little less gambling in.
Sadly, I didn’t wear my kilt-it was partly business for Rita, whose presentation went well, and I didn’t need to disrupt it. Instead, I decided to conduct an stealthy experiment-one I was quite confident as to what the results would be.

It probably doesn’t come as a surprise to some of you that over the last 30 years or so, I’ve developed a catalogue of techniques using the pen as a weapon: methods of deployment, wielding, etc. Interestingly, it took about that long for the industry to truly catch up with me, and come up with the "tactical pen." These things range in price from $25 to about $300, if you can believe that-though most of them are just a heavy hunk of aluminum with a no slip grip, and sharp points. This

is the "Uzi" tactical pen. Retails for about $25. It’s quite servicable, both as a pen, and as an object I’ve driven through 3/8" plywood, a rack of pork ribs, and into a pork shoulder several times. At some point I’ll post more about using these pens, as well as several fountain pens, as weapons, and some of the tests I’ve conducted, but first my experiment, documented in a photo essay I’ll call The Deadly Pen and Friends Go To Vegas."

That’s right-the TSA sucks. :lfao:

I first took the pen aboard in my laptop case, though I brought it home in my jacket:

And, along with my restricted size carry on toiletries:

I brought this:

which is about the most powerful pepper spray that a civilian can buy.


Ironically, the pepper spray is illegal to possess in Clark County-though I could legally carry my pistol there-so it didn’t get much of a tour, and stayed in the Hard Rock. In fact, it stayed there-I don’t really care much for pepper spray, and just bought this stuff to make a point. The pen though,

made the point pretty well for me. :lfao:
In all seriousness, don’t do this-not only did I have every confidence in succeeding, but extraordinary means to get myself out of trouble if I didn’t-and, really, the pepper spray was the only real problem, as I could easily have plead forgetfulness, and given up the pen if they’d pointed it out, but they didn’t even bat an eye. I won’t even get into the variety of pen-type objects that conceal knives, firearms, and those that disperse chemicals.

As far as those "volume restricted liquids" go, the 3.4 oz liquid limit in oil, like brake fluid, and another common and easily available substance, milled to look like talcum powder-on which there is no volume restriction-when combined, result in a rather energetic reaction: the immediate release of toxic gas, followed shortly by an explosion.

If someone wants to bring the planes down, and is willing to sacrifice themselves to do so, and isn't quite as stupid as the shoe and underwear bombers, well, they will.

I have no objection to searches for flights. I have no objection to reasonable restrictions for safety.In the case of the TSA, though, neither are truly effective. They are psuedo-security psychodrama, intended to let you all think the government is doing something and that it’s for our own good. It doesn’t accomplish anything, except to make the public accustomed to it. Consequently, John is quite right-when another incident occurs, and I have no doubt that eventually one will. It doesn't really take much of a genius to figure out how to blow up a plane that you’re riding in, for example-and the other public .soft targets are just waiting for someone with the will and the means.Then the drama will be ratcheted up, and such procedures will be implemented in a variety of public places-the government doing something for our own good. And there’s really nothing to be done about it-it’s a foregone conclusion.

Oh, and as I’ve demonstrated-the TSA sucks. :lfao:

Thats fine and all but does not really prove anything. I know for a fact Ive missed things in searches. Ive missed things searching cars, people, houses. I Missed a 357 revolver once on a pat down only to find it a few min later after he was arrested and I searched him talk about pucker factor when I found it. I watched a training film of a guy in an interview room inside a police station pulls a 1911 45Cal hand gun from his waist and blows his head off. That was after he had already shot a cop and was searched several times. People are people and we miss things it happens.
When I search people I only deal with one person at a time at most a few times a day not thousands of people a day. I saw a thing on news last night that said since airlines started charging for checked baggage TSA has had to scan 60 million more carry on bags then then last year. So if anything we need more TSA workers.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

The -last- thing we need is more -TSA-.

What we need are more effective, efficient and functional screening procedures, combined with a more professional and better trained screener force.

But I trust mall cops more than I do the TSA.

 

[ballen0351]

The -last- thing we need is more -TSA-.

What we need are more effective, efficient and functional screening procedures, combined with a more professional and better trained screener force.

But I trust mall cops more than I do the TSA.

Ive never met an unprofessional TSA officer. Ive always been treated with respect. I also am not into trying to buck the system just to get a gotcha momment for you tube on intentionally carry things on i know im not supposed to just to prove a point. They have a job to do and thats it. They dont make the rules they are given the rules by big wigs at Homeland Security. So to constantly call them names like they made up the rules is not really fair. I enforce many rules and laws I dont agree with but I get paid to do a job so I do it. Ive arrested many people I felt sorry for and wish I didnt have to arrest them but I also dont want to loose my job for not following the rules.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I've never personally met an unprofessional one either, though my direct experience wasn't with TSA but private screeners at SFO.
There are hundreds of reports (at a minimum) of TSA behaving badly however, with well over 100 arrested for crimes. You can say it's a small %, but how many cops are arrested each year?
I've got inside info that says the systems pretty bad, with the rules being poorly explained and poorly implemented.
No, I stick to my position.
I trust cops. I don't trust the TSA.

 

[ballen0351]

I've never personally met an unprofessional one either, though my direct experience wasn't with TSA but private screeners at SFO.
There are hundreds of reports (at a minimum) of TSA behaving badly however, with well over 100 arrested for crimes. You can say it's a small %, but how many cops are arrested each year?
I've got inside info that says the systems pretty bad, with the rules being poorly explained and poorly implemented.
No, I stick to my position.
I trust cops. I don't trust the TSA.

100's of examples? There are over 2 million people flying a DAY thats damn good odds right there.
Again your upset about the rules but these guys dont make the rules.

You can have any position you want but to imply they are all too stupid to even tie a shoe is not fair. You dislike the policy ok but they have nothing to do with it.

 

[jks9199]

Thats fine and all but does not really prove anything. I know for a fact Ive missed things in searches. Ive missed things searching cars, people, houses.

I missed a package of sushi down a guy's pants a few weeks ago...

No, that's not a typo or a joke. He had a package of grocery store sushi down the front of his pants.

 

[ballen0351]

I missed a package of sushi down a guy's pants a few weeks ago...

No, that's not a typo or a joke. He had a package of grocery store sushi down the front of his pants.

Nice