Sigung86
2nd Black Belt
Sigung LaBounty is generally thought of to be a class act, and has the respect of lots of folks.
It's time to promote the Kenpo Grand Masters
- Thread starter Old Fat Kenpoka
- Start date
Sigung LaBounty is generally thought of to be a class act, and has the respect of lots of folks.
OP
Old Fat Kenpoka
Master Black Belt
- Thread Starter
- #22
I wholeheatedly support Mr. Labounty's position on not accepting 10th degree. I wish there were more in our community with his sense of duty and humility. Although, I do think that our current 10th Dan's are awesome Kenpokas and cannot say anything bad about any of them as individuals.
I was acquanted with Mr. Labounty as a Kenpoka and as a police officer and he is indeed a class act.
I was acquanted with Mr. Labounty as a Kenpoka and as a police officer and he is indeed a class act.
B
Billy Lear
Guest
I wholeheatedly disagree with you on this issue Old Fat Kenpoka. I think that some of the current Seniors (even though they posses skill and knowlege, that far surpasses mine) should have waited before accepting the additional rank they have. I also think that the title of Founder and Senior Grandmaster should be used only in reference to only Mr. Parker.
The thing is... someone will eventually break with Mr. Parker's belt ranking system and promote themselves to something higher than tenth. There is no stopping them, but I don't have to acknowledge them either.
Sincerely and respectfully,
Billy Lear, UKS :asian:
The thing is... someone will eventually break with Mr. Parker's belt ranking system and promote themselves to something higher than tenth. There is no stopping them, but I don't have to acknowledge them either.
Sincerely and respectfully,
Billy Lear, UKS :asian:
R
roryneil
Guest
Actually Mr. Lear that is in agreement with OFK isn't it?
B
Billy Lear
Guest
Not at all... He wants to posthumously promote Mr. Parker to a higher rank, and then allow the other Kenpo Seniors to gain Rank accordingly, with Mr. Parker always being a step ahead... I don't want to see any of this happen.
R
roryneil
Guest
I thought above he was stating he was being facitious and was against that. Now I'M confused!
B
Billy Lear
Guest
If that's the case, then I am wrong. I didn't see the post... I'll go back to school now. :rofl:
OP
Old Fat Kenpoka
Master Black Belt
- Thread Starter
- #28
Yes. Both Mr. Lear and Mr. Royneil are correct.
My proposal is both real and tongue in cheek. It is a case of sh** or get off the pot.
Kenpo masters who need/deserve promotion should not be able to claim or use the same rank and title as Mr. Parker.
One way to do this is to promote Mr. Parker to 12th to allow others to grow their rank to 10th and beyond.
Another solution is to "freeze" Kenpo, preserve Mr. Parker's position as the only legitimate authority on American Kenpo, the only legitimate SGM, perhaps the only legitimate 10thDan in the future. This freeze implies that no one can improve Kenpo beyond Mr. Parker's teachings and that the art is frozen and cannot be changed. This is the "But Mr. Parker would not have wanted..." argument. I think this is a bad solution and would be the death of Kenpo.
I think the best solution is to abandon the whole nebulous 6th Dan+ "time and contribution" promotion criteria in favor of a competion-based system. I think we could all justify something like: "Mr. Trejo has kicked everyone's a** in competition and should be ranked higher". This will eliminate the promotion of phonies to any Black Belt rank and eliminate gratuitous promotions of Seniors. I personally know a few very high-ranking Kenpo Black Belts (in non-Parker Kenpo) who couldn't outfight a wet blanket.
This promotion based on proven competitive victories works pretty well in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu where if you train long and hard and beat a Gracie Black Belt in competition, you get promoted. This just happened this week after Brown Belt Eddie Bravo submitted 5thDan Royler Gracie at the ADCC submission wrestling championship in Saulo Paolo. Eddie Bravo was deservedly promoted to Black Belt.
Fo those of you unfamiliar with this technique, Eddie is lying down. Royler is sitting. Royler is getting choked out and tapping for submission.
My proposal is both real and tongue in cheek. It is a case of sh** or get off the pot.
Kenpo masters who need/deserve promotion should not be able to claim or use the same rank and title as Mr. Parker.
One way to do this is to promote Mr. Parker to 12th to allow others to grow their rank to 10th and beyond.
Another solution is to "freeze" Kenpo, preserve Mr. Parker's position as the only legitimate authority on American Kenpo, the only legitimate SGM, perhaps the only legitimate 10thDan in the future. This freeze implies that no one can improve Kenpo beyond Mr. Parker's teachings and that the art is frozen and cannot be changed. This is the "But Mr. Parker would not have wanted..." argument. I think this is a bad solution and would be the death of Kenpo.
I think the best solution is to abandon the whole nebulous 6th Dan+ "time and contribution" promotion criteria in favor of a competion-based system. I think we could all justify something like: "Mr. Trejo has kicked everyone's a** in competition and should be ranked higher". This will eliminate the promotion of phonies to any Black Belt rank and eliminate gratuitous promotions of Seniors. I personally know a few very high-ranking Kenpo Black Belts (in non-Parker Kenpo) who couldn't outfight a wet blanket.
This promotion based on proven competitive victories works pretty well in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu where if you train long and hard and beat a Gracie Black Belt in competition, you get promoted. This just happened this week after Brown Belt Eddie Bravo submitted 5thDan Royler Gracie at the ADCC submission wrestling championship in Saulo Paolo. Eddie Bravo was deservedly promoted to Black Belt.
Fo those of you unfamiliar with this technique, Eddie is lying down. Royler is sitting. Royler is getting choked out and tapping for submission.
Robbo
Purple Belt
I can see it now. Rob since you hyper-extended, ripped his left eye out, collasped his esophagus you can now be promoted to the next degree. As for your opponent, well.........
Kenpo isn't exactly set up for competition.
Why can't there be more that one tenth? You can't be the founder obviously but why can't you acheive a tenth? Mr. Parker has the title of SGM and founder...isn't that enough? Everything else is personal.
Rob
B
Billy Lear
Guest
I personally don't see anything wrong with having multiple 10th degrees within the system. I have a problem with the title "Senior Grandmaster" being thrown around like a paper weight.
Robbo
Purple Belt
Not to get you riled but every time I have heard or read about the SGM it was always referred with respect to Mr. Parker. If a person was ranked 10th they would be a GM, correct? Who's throwing the SGM title around?
Rob
OP
Old Fat Kenpoka
Master Black Belt
- Thread Starter
- #32
Mr. Robbo
So how do we know if any of this Kenpo stuff really works? After all, we are too at peace with ourselves to get in street fights and we can't use our best techniques in competition because they are too deadly.
How do we know if any of our Black Belts are any good? What is to prevent an old fat kenpoka like myself from having a tupperware party to get my friends to sign a promotion certificate and calling myself a 10th degree?
We need a rank standard that is proveable. When you go into a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu school and you see a Black Belt, you know he can effectively use his art to defeat lower belts and defend himself on the streets. When you see stripes on a BJJ black belt you know that he can effectively use BJJ to defeat most lower ranking black belts. You know that these people TEST their skills and all of their techniques against actual resisting opponents regularly. What do you know when you see Kenpo stripes? That the Black Belt can do a pretty kata, can recite chapter and verse from Infinite Insights, can do techniques really fast when the dummy reacts exactly as he is supposed to? Can a Kenpo Black Belt really make his Kenpo work? Has he ever proved it? Does he have to continue to prove it throughout his career?
Don't get me wrong. I've been involved in Kenpo for 30 years. I think it is the BEST art in the world. I LOVE Kenpo. I just think we listen to ourselves talk too much. We need to open our eyes, open our minds, and seek a way to validate our dogma in the real world. If we don't, the rest of the martial arts community will pass us by and we will be relegated to the history books.
So how do we know if any of this Kenpo stuff really works? After all, we are too at peace with ourselves to get in street fights and we can't use our best techniques in competition because they are too deadly.
How do we know if any of our Black Belts are any good? What is to prevent an old fat kenpoka like myself from having a tupperware party to get my friends to sign a promotion certificate and calling myself a 10th degree?
We need a rank standard that is proveable. When you go into a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu school and you see a Black Belt, you know he can effectively use his art to defeat lower belts and defend himself on the streets. When you see stripes on a BJJ black belt you know that he can effectively use BJJ to defeat most lower ranking black belts. You know that these people TEST their skills and all of their techniques against actual resisting opponents regularly. What do you know when you see Kenpo stripes? That the Black Belt can do a pretty kata, can recite chapter and verse from Infinite Insights, can do techniques really fast when the dummy reacts exactly as he is supposed to? Can a Kenpo Black Belt really make his Kenpo work? Has he ever proved it? Does he have to continue to prove it throughout his career?
Don't get me wrong. I've been involved in Kenpo for 30 years. I think it is the BEST art in the world. I LOVE Kenpo. I just think we listen to ourselves talk too much. We need to open our eyes, open our minds, and seek a way to validate our dogma in the real world. If we don't, the rest of the martial arts community will pass us by and we will be relegated to the history books.
R
roryneil
Guest
It seems like there should only be one 10th, but no one would unanimously agree on who and SGM did not appoint anyone. Just as he did not proclude anyone being promoted to 10. He spoke of tenth the same as 4th or 7th.
OP
Old Fat Kenpoka
Master Black Belt
- Thread Starter
- #34
It would be great if there was only one 10th, only one SGM, and only one American Kenpo association. But it's too late now. And it won't get fixed unless something drastic is done.
Robbo
Purple Belt
Personally I hope I never have to find out. I can train hard, have faith in my instructor that he is teaching correctly, and from my own experiance and judgement hopefully find myself on the right path.
I think the M.A. community will sort out who is a reputable 10th and who is not. If some person can claim a 10th and impress the general public and not ever be tested as to their true ability what are you or I able to so about it....squat.
All I can do is worry about my own training and whether it is of a quality that I can live with.
Nothing at all, but if you show up at a school to do a seminar or try to pass yourself off as a 10th to a M.A. worth his salt then be prepared for the fallout when the M.A. community hears about this 10th degree who isn't.
Rob
OP
Old Fat Kenpoka
Master Black Belt
- Thread Starter
- #36
Robbo: Thanks. Your point is right on the money. And it is really close to what I am trying to get at.
How does the M.A. community know if a 10th Dan is legit?
How do they know if a style or teaching method is legit?
Only by proof. How do you prove it?
Some teach seminars which is like preaching to the converted.
Some break boards or have them broken over their heads or stomachs which is just plain silly.
Some do Katas which are pretty but not necessarily effective.
Some compete against others within their style which shows that they are effective within their style.
Some compete against those in other styles and systems showing that they are effective and that their style is effective.
Which of these methods is best for determining who is an effective martial artist and validating the legitimacy of both the practioner and his art?
Why wouldn't Kenpo want to be measured by the best standard?
How does the M.A. community know if a 10th Dan is legit?
How do they know if a style or teaching method is legit?
Only by proof. How do you prove it?
Some teach seminars which is like preaching to the converted.
Some break boards or have them broken over their heads or stomachs which is just plain silly.
Some do Katas which are pretty but not necessarily effective.
Some compete against others within their style which shows that they are effective within their style.
Some compete against those in other styles and systems showing that they are effective and that their style is effective.
Which of these methods is best for determining who is an effective martial artist and validating the legitimacy of both the practioner and his art?
Why wouldn't Kenpo want to be measured by the best standard?
R
roryneil
Guest
...if Such-and-so were a 10th and my instructor was 1st I would not even comptemplate leaving my instructor. You don't have to be a black belt to know who is legit or not. The good ones stand out.
OP
Old Fat Kenpoka
Master Black Belt
- Thread Starter
- #38
But the good ones don't stand out and most of the public has no way of knowing who is legit or not.
Look at most of the Tae Kwon Do schools. Do you think their instruction compares to American Kenpo instruction? Look at the United Studios of Self Defense or Villari Kenpo schools. Do you think their instruction compares to American Kenpo? Of course not.
But how would the unsuspecting public know that So-and-so 5th Degree TKD Black Belt has less experience than a typical Kenpo 1st Degree? How would they know that United Studios Kenpo Black Belts have not trained to the rigor of an American Kenpo Black Belt? People are fooled by degrees.
Competitive track record is a better indicator: So-and-so Black Belt won 1st place in fighting at this tournament in 1998, that tournament in 1999, 2nd place in this one in 2000, 1st place in another one in 2001, etc. If a Black Belt's resume includes a history of competitive victories isn't that more compelling than belt degrees?
If I am evaluating a teacher, I will look not at his rank, but at his track record. Then I'll watch him teach and decide if he is right for me.
Look at most of the Tae Kwon Do schools. Do you think their instruction compares to American Kenpo instruction? Look at the United Studios of Self Defense or Villari Kenpo schools. Do you think their instruction compares to American Kenpo? Of course not.
But how would the unsuspecting public know that So-and-so 5th Degree TKD Black Belt has less experience than a typical Kenpo 1st Degree? How would they know that United Studios Kenpo Black Belts have not trained to the rigor of an American Kenpo Black Belt? People are fooled by degrees.
Competitive track record is a better indicator: So-and-so Black Belt won 1st place in fighting at this tournament in 1998, that tournament in 1999, 2nd place in this one in 2000, 1st place in another one in 2001, etc. If a Black Belt's resume includes a history of competitive victories isn't that more compelling than belt degrees?
If I am evaluating a teacher, I will look not at his rank, but at his track record. Then I'll watch him teach and decide if he is right for me.
R
roryneil
Guest
Along those lines, you look at their students. They should reflect the quality of training they received.
Sigung86
2nd Black Belt
Hey OFK...
Having been at this stuff since 1963, I like to pontificate on occasion. I hope you will oblige me this time.
Your paradigm of promotion is right for you and some others, but maybe not for everyone. I think we're missing the point of the Black Belt. A tenth can not and probably should not have to whip every comer, even in tournament. You have your Trejos, and LaBountys, and Lewis', et al. But not everyone is a tournament fighter or rated as such. That does not keep them from being the rank they have attained. A high ranking Black Belt is not necessarily a sign of toughness, but of skill in the art, wisdom and well-roundedness.
The unfortunate issue with the Tenth Degrees that we have such a multitude of is that they are, probably, all association promotions. That does not invalidate them, but by the same token, it puts a different slant on the ranks attained. They are not the same as the old days when one person, SGM Parker, was the final say. Nowadays, youre right. You could throw a tupperware party and get enough friends to sign that it would be legitimate in that sense.
Another perspective is that there is, and you know from your tenure, has always been high ranking Black Belts that were no where near to a point of being deserving. The only real validity of any rank is in the acceptance of the followers of the high ranking Black Belt . That really is it, period. The acceptance by anyone else is, essentially, a gentlemans agreement. It is all so very nebulous that rank has almost become like a tattoo. Everyone that wants one gets it. And, unfortunately, most do.
Insofar as rank above 10th . It seems to me that you really should only go so high. A ceiling, if you will. Its kind of like being the President of the United States, and having the last name of Roosevelt. You are as high in government as you can go, but you just kind of stay there for the duration of your tour. There may be other Presidents who are alive, and all have the title and perqs that go with being or having been President, but you really can not go any higher. SGM Parker was a 10th Degree I have no idea how he got it, but there he is. Other folks have their 10th now, I have a vague idea of how some of them came by it, and others, not a clue. Doesnt really matter. Some folks have gotten aligned with each of the 10th s and do recognize and grant authority to that 10th, so they are valid.
Unfortunately this was the only way it could have ended up. That is due to the length of time that so many people have been in or at (if you prefer) their Kenpo. Back in SGM Parkers hey day, there werent that many who would be or even become 10th Dans. Today is not yesterday. The genie that agonizes so many people will not go back in the bottle, nor should it. The good ones will stand on their strengths and persevere. The ones who are, essentially, bogus will eventually wilt away to nothing, or at least to a position of very limited influence.
But having said all that, I am not EPAK, and have not had to endure the pains that EPAK has gone through. I am Tracy Kenpo, and our school head is still around and kicking What happens when Al Tracy passes over (May it be a long time coming) To borrow an Arab philosophy, is in the hands of Allah. :lol:
In the spirit of the art, I understand and really agree with you. On the other hand, it appears we are in the grips of an inevitability.
Be of good cheer We are children of the Universe. No less than the trees and the stars. We have a right to be here. And whether or not we know it The universe is laughing behind our backs. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Dan Farmer
Probably an Older Fat Kenpoka.
Having been at this stuff since 1963, I like to pontificate on occasion. I hope you will oblige me this time.
Your paradigm of promotion is right for you and some others, but maybe not for everyone. I think we're missing the point of the Black Belt. A tenth can not and probably should not have to whip every comer, even in tournament. You have your Trejos, and LaBountys, and Lewis', et al. But not everyone is a tournament fighter or rated as such. That does not keep them from being the rank they have attained. A high ranking Black Belt is not necessarily a sign of toughness, but of skill in the art, wisdom and well-roundedness.
The unfortunate issue with the Tenth Degrees that we have such a multitude of is that they are, probably, all association promotions. That does not invalidate them, but by the same token, it puts a different slant on the ranks attained. They are not the same as the old days when one person, SGM Parker, was the final say. Nowadays, youre right. You could throw a tupperware party and get enough friends to sign that it would be legitimate in that sense.
Another perspective is that there is, and you know from your tenure, has always been high ranking Black Belts that were no where near to a point of being deserving. The only real validity of any rank is in the acceptance of the followers of the high ranking Black Belt . That really is it, period. The acceptance by anyone else is, essentially, a gentlemans agreement. It is all so very nebulous that rank has almost become like a tattoo. Everyone that wants one gets it. And, unfortunately, most do.
Insofar as rank above 10th . It seems to me that you really should only go so high. A ceiling, if you will. Its kind of like being the President of the United States, and having the last name of Roosevelt. You are as high in government as you can go, but you just kind of stay there for the duration of your tour. There may be other Presidents who are alive, and all have the title and perqs that go with being or having been President, but you really can not go any higher. SGM Parker was a 10th Degree I have no idea how he got it, but there he is. Other folks have their 10th now, I have a vague idea of how some of them came by it, and others, not a clue. Doesnt really matter. Some folks have gotten aligned with each of the 10th s and do recognize and grant authority to that 10th, so they are valid.
Unfortunately this was the only way it could have ended up. That is due to the length of time that so many people have been in or at (if you prefer) their Kenpo. Back in SGM Parkers hey day, there werent that many who would be or even become 10th Dans. Today is not yesterday. The genie that agonizes so many people will not go back in the bottle, nor should it. The good ones will stand on their strengths and persevere. The ones who are, essentially, bogus will eventually wilt away to nothing, or at least to a position of very limited influence.
But having said all that, I am not EPAK, and have not had to endure the pains that EPAK has gone through. I am Tracy Kenpo, and our school head is still around and kicking What happens when Al Tracy passes over (May it be a long time coming) To borrow an Arab philosophy, is in the hands of Allah. :lol:
In the spirit of the art, I understand and really agree with you. On the other hand, it appears we are in the grips of an inevitability.
Be of good cheer We are children of the Universe. No less than the trees and the stars. We have a right to be here. And whether or not we know it The universe is laughing behind our backs. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Dan Farmer
Probably an Older Fat Kenpoka.
