Is wing chun effective at all?

[Mephisto]

I agree completely....MMA is a sport with rules. Wing Chun trains a person that the only rules lie in the forms, the human body and the training. Groan kicks, knee kicks, throat chops, etc are all against the rules of MMA, but not so in Wing Chun. This is not to say any MMA fighters are not good on the streets, on the contrary, it just means comparing the streets to the MMA cage is like comparing watermelons to kiwi fruit. What works well in MMA would likely work well on the streets, but so do other Martial Arts that may not be as effective in MMA.

Just as an mma player can avoid fowl blows in the ring yet use them in the street, why can't a wing chun guy use fowls in the street but not use fowl blows in the ring? Wc has punches, and kicks, like most striking based styles, why can't they use them effectively against another striker? Surely you don't hit your fellow practitioners with full force fowl blows in training so you are still abiding by rules be it unwritten or not. Everyone who trains follows rules.

The problem I have is WC guys writing It off as an effective style in MMA because of "rules". What if we do get some solid WC guys that can use it in mma? What then? Does wc suddenly become less effective in the streets because it can work in the ring?

 

[Danny T]

What if we do get some solid WC guys that can use it in mma? What then? Does wc suddenly become less effective in the streets because it can work in the ring?

Properly trained wc can be utilized in the cage and has been by a few. If a larger group were to train wc specifically for the sport of mma does that mean wc becomes more effective?

I know a lot of well trained muay thai guys and gals who have never tested their skills in ring competition but are very highly skilled muay thai trained people. Are they less effective? I also know many highly skilled wrestlers, BJJ, and submission wrestlers who have never been in a real competition but are very highly skilled. These people have honed their skills in their perspective schools/gyms and are excellent even though they have never 'fought' in a ring/cage. Same can be stated for all of the martial systems.

On the same note; there are many poorly trained muay thai, wrestling, bjj, and whatever. Does that make those arts any less effective. NO!

Something to ponder:
In every mma, boxing, wrestling competition unless it comes to a draw someone loses. In a draw does that mean the particular arts were ineffective? In the win/loss numbers 50% lose; 50% were ineffective add in the ineffectiveness numbers from the draws and more than 50% of all fights are ineffective? What?! In all the mma fights combined better than 50% were ineffective. Then why is there so many using such ineffective systems?

 

[Mephisto]

Properly trained wc can be utilized in the cage and has been by a few. If a larger group were to train wc specifically for the sport of mma does that mean wc becomes more effective?

I know a lot of well trained muay thai guys and gals who have never tested their skills in ring competition but are very highly skilled muay thai trained people. Are they less effective? I also know many highly skilled wrestlers, BJJ, and submission wrestlers who have never been in a real competition but are very highly skilled. These people have honed their skills in their perspective schools/gyms and are excellent even though they have never 'fought' in a ring/cage. Same can be stated for all of the martial systems.

On the same note; there are many poorly trained muay thai, wrestling, bjj, and whatever. Does that make those arts any less effective. NO!

Something to ponder:
In every mma, boxing, wrestling competition unless it comes to a draw someone loses. In a draw does that mean the particular arts were ineffective? In the win/loss numbers 50% lose; 50% were ineffective add in the ineffectiveness numbers from the draws and more than 50% of all fights are ineffective? What?! In all the mma fights combined better than 50% were ineffective. Then why is there so many using such ineffective systems?

I think you're going a little to far with you 50% ineffective thing. No one said the winner or loser of a fight guarantees effectiveness. All styles have good and bad players, who's debating this? If two guys if the same style fight not much of a conclusion can be drawn about that styles effectiveness, especially if the way they fight looks like how they train. There are different styles off boxing within the art, different bjj "ground games" approaches. A good fighter can adapt to different games and approaches.

Problems arise when there is a significant difference between how someone says they fight and what they're actually able to do. You're example of boxers, Muay thai, and bjjers that don't compete are different than arts where no one spars or competes because the non competing boxer,kick boxer, bjjer, all most likely train under or train around others that do compete. They benefit by training with people that do have competitive experience and draw from that collective knowledge. Imagine an island of bjjers that never grapple each other and never train with grapplers, all they do are isolated moves and flow drills. Do you think they'll be able to hang with those that compete? Or those that don't compete but train and roll with competitors?

My point is a fighting art should have a core of competitors or experienced fighters to guide those that don't compete. Not everyone has to compete, there are probably some who don't compete that could do well if they did. But they learn and benefit from the knowledge of fighters. The higher ranks of a fighting art should consist of some rough and tumble guys who have LOTs of experience fighting with their art against other experienced fighters.

 

[Danny T]

I think you're going a little to far with you 50% ineffective thing. No one said the winner or loser of a fight guarantees effectiveness. All styles have good and bad players, who's debating this? If two guys if the same style fight not much of a conclusion can be drawn about that styles effectiveness, especially if the way they fight looks like how they train. There are different styles off boxing within the art, different bjj "ground games" approaches. A good fighter can adapt to different games and approaches.

Problems arise when there is a significant difference between how someone says they fight and what they're actually able to do. You're example of boxers, Muay thai, and bjjers that don't compete are different than arts where no one spars or competes because the non competing boxer,kick boxer, bjjer, all most likely train under or train around others that do compete. They benefit by training with people that do have competitive experience and draw from that collective knowledge. Imagine an island of bjjers that never grapple each other and never train with grapplers, all they do are isolated moves and flow drills. Do you think they'll be able to hang with those that compete? Or those that don't compete but train and roll with competitors?

My point is a fighting art should have a core of competitors or experienced fighters to guide those that don't compete. Not everyone has to compete, there are probably some who don't compete that could do well if they did. But they learn and benefit from the knowledge of fighters. The higher ranks of a fighting art should consist of some rough and tumble guys who have LOTs of experience fighting with their art against other experienced fighters.

It's a bit of me being facetious.
Just making a point of why any 'x' art isn't in mma.
Just because an art is not representing in mma doesn't make that art ineffective.

"A good fighter can adapt..."
Agreed and it doesn't matter from what that fighter trains but it does matter as to 'how' that fighter trains and practices.

"...are different than arts where no one spars..."
The Wing Chun family I train with spars. A Lot. Against wc people, muay thai people, wrestlers, karate people. I even have some of my wc guys who do in fact compete in mma. What does that prove?

There are far less arts represented in MMA than are effective martial arts.

 

[wingerjim]

Just as an mma player can avoid fowl blows in the ring yet use them in the street, why can't a wing chun guy use fowls in the street but not use fowl blows in the ring? Wc has punches, and kicks, like most striking based styles, why can't they use them effectively against another striker? Surely you don't hit your fellow practitioners with full force fowl blows in training so you are still abiding by rules be it unwritten or not. Everyone who trains follows rules.

The problem I have is WC guys writing It off as an effective style in MMA because of "rules". What if we do get some solid WC guys that can use it in mma? What then? Does wc suddenly become less effective in the streets because it can work in the ring?

I am not saying WC is an effective style in MMA, but no style is better than another in MMA other than Western Boxing and Wrestling. WC could be effective to a point and that point is usually at the point of a takedown. There is nothing in the traditional WC training to deal with a fight on the ground…the point of WC is to avoid getting there in the first place. The vast majority of MMA fights include western boxing and wrestling with a few kicks included. So, no single martial art has all of the above. I have seen some MMA events were 10-12 minutes of the fight are on the mat and not on their feet, so WC would be totally useless in that kind of fight, but before one hits the floor, WC can be effective as a compliment to Western Boxing skills. What I am saying is that too many people take this hypothetical argument about which martial art is best and apply it to MMA. The winner of any fight is the one best prepared, mentally sharp and has worked the hardest at their skill. Most MMA fighters fit all the above, but so do many martial artists.

 

[Transk53]

I am not saying WC is an effective style in MMA, but no style is better than another in MMA other than Western Boxing and Wrestling.

At the moment yes I would agree. On Wing Chun no, because MMA is fluid relying on many facets to succeed. Wing Chun relies on centuries old structure. Unless there was a fundamental shift in principles, but then it would not be Wing Chun imho.

 

[yak sao]

At the moment yes I would agree. On Wing Chun no, because MMA is fluid relying on many facets to succeed. Wing Chun relies on centuries old structure. Unless there was a fundamental shift in principles, but then it would not be Wing Chun imho.

I would have to disagree with you on this. WC's structure is based on the human body and what it the optimal way for the body to deliver force/dissolve force while using as little strength as possible.
I don't think humanity has changed all that much, physiologically speaking in a couple of hundred years.
Also, as I have mentioned on a recent thread, WC, I agree starts out very restrictive feeling in stance, structure, etc. But given time and proper training, a WC fighter will move very fluidly and the structures/stances will be momentary snapshots in time.

 

[moonhill99]

I want to learn and have asked a lot of questions on many other sites about wing chun and they just bash on it every time, that it does not work that its useless I mean I don't know if it is or not can someone that has been using win chun for a long period or anyone that has had experiences where wing chun has helped you tell me about it, seriously this is the last time I ask about it I'm going to make up my mind of learning wing chun or another style, is it useless or not?

From what people tell me win chun on its own with do nothing with some one taking boxing.But if you take other martial arts and win chun it works really well.

The problem with most kung fu or most karate it is useless for today's fighting.

Like Okinawan karate or Kenpo Karate it is nice but it is useless for today's fighting with boxer or MMA.

It not the art it is today's fighting is so different.

 

[K-man]

The problem with most kung fu or most karate it is useless for today's fighting.

Like Okinawan karate or Kenpo Karate it is nice but it is useless for today's fighting with boxer or MMA.

It not the art it is today's fighting is so different.

I don't know how Kung fu would fare but I have to disagree with you comment on Okinawan karate. No Kung fu or karate is designed for competition so it is pretty pointless to compare it to boxing or MMA in sporting bouts. However, Okinawan karate is based on grappling, not the type of karate you see in karate tournaments. If a karateka can enter and clinch, then I would say he would be on more than even terms with a boxer.

Today's fighting is different in the ring but it is not terribly different on the street.

 

[moonhill99]

I don't know how Kung fu would fare but I have to disagree with you comment on Okinawan karate. No Kung fu or karate is designed for competition so it is pretty pointless to compare it to boxing or MMA in sporting bouts. However, Okinawan karate is based on grappling, not the type of karate you see in karate tournaments. If a karateka can enter and clinch, then I would say he would be on more than even terms with a boxer.

Today's fighting is different in the ring but it is not terribly different on the street.

I think for any Kung fu or karate to do well in MMA or beet up boxer is they have to have good blocking and the right distance not too close but not far.

With win chun you are way too close.

Even Okinawan karate or Kenpo Karate you are too close and both are really bad at striking and almost no blocking.

I would say Shotokan Karate would do better in MMA or fighting a boxer.

wiki page on it.
Shotokan - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

 

[K-man]

I think for any Kung fu or karate to do well in MMA or beet up boxer is they have to have good blocking and the right distance not too close but not far.

With win chun you are way too close.

Even Okinawan karate or Kenpo Karate you are too close and both are really bad at striking and almost no blocking.

I would say Shotokan Karate would do better in MMA or fighting a boxer.

wiki page on it.
Shotokan - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

So you are talking about fighting under boxing rules?

 

[Tez3]

I think for any Kung fu or karate to do well in MMA or beet up boxer is they have to have good blocking and the right distance not too close but not far.

With win chun you are way too close.

Even Okinawan karate or Kenpo Karate you are too close and both are really bad at striking and almost no blocking.

I would say Shotokan Karate would do better in MMA or fighting a boxer.

You seem to be talking about single styles but you don't go into MMA fighting in a single style, you will use multiple techniques from multiple styles amalgamated to be as effective as possible. Quite often a technique from one style will flow into another technique from another style. It's one reason why people often don't recognise particular styles immediately. Also many styles have similar techniques.

It's really frustrating to be honest that people still talk about single styles being 'successful' in MMA, it totally misses the point of the competition and for goodness sake doesn't the name give it away MIXED Martial arts? it doesn't mean just one or two arts done separately, it means quite a few mixed seamlessly into one fighting style!


The arguments that this style or that style would work in MMA is frankly outdated, it's about the fighters style which will , obviously, be a mixture of techniques from a mixture of styles. MMA should be seen as a whole, as itself.

 

[moonhill99]

So you are talking about fighting under boxing rules?

I'm talking about good distance and good striking and blocking.

Okinawan karate

Not saying these moves are bad, it is they have no blocking and hand striking to close the gab to allow for these moves with hard getting hit in face. So no MMA or boxer will allow you to get that close.

If you took boxing or other karate style and got really good at it and than took Okinawan karate I think it would work

But with way Okinawan karate or Kenpo Karate they lack kicking ,blocking and hand striking to get close enough to allow for those moves.

Shotokan Karate has more kicking over Okinawan karate or Kenpo Karate and even the use of higher kicks so I think that would work.


wiki page on it.
Okinawan martial arts - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

 

[Tez3]

I'm talking about good distance and good striking and blocking.

Okinawan karate



Not saying these moves are bad, it is they have no blocking and hand striking to close the gab to allow for these moves with hard getting hit in face. So no MMA or boxer will allow you to get that close.

If you took boxing or other karate style and got really good at it and than took Okinawan karate I think it would work

But with way Okinawan karate or Kenpo Karate they lack kicking ,blocking and hand striking to get close enough to allow for those moves.

Shotokan Karate has more kicking over Okinawan karate or Kenpo Karate and even the use of higher kicks so I think that would work.


wiki page on it.
Okinawan martial arts - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

I'm sorry but I can't see what this has to do with the OP? It's title says WC and it's in the WC section and we are getting a lecture on karate not being so good for MMA?

 

[K-man]

I'm talking about good distance and good striking and blocking.

Okinawan karate

Not saying these moves are bad, it is they have no blocking and hand striking to close the gab to allow for these moves with hard getting hit in face. So no MMA or boxer will allow you to get that close.

If you took boxing or other karate style and got really good at it and than took Okinawan karate I think it would work

But with way Okinawan karate or Kenpo Karate they lack kicking ,blocking and hand striking to get close enough to allow for those moves.

Shotokan Karate has more kicking over Okinawan karate or Kenpo Karate and even the use of higher kicks so I think that would work.


wiki page on it.
Okinawan martial arts - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

To be honest, I don't think you understand Okinawan karate at all, not that this thread is anything to do with karate. So you are saying in MMA when a karate guy has gone in the ring there have been no clinches. Of course you can grab. For a start the boxer has to enter because the Okinawan karateka will wait.

But thanks for the reference. It is pretty much what I thought it was ... seeing I teach it. You stick to what you believe, this is the wrong thread to take it further.

 

[moonhill99]

To be honest, I don't think you understand Okinawan karate at all, not that this thread is anything to do with karate. So you are saying in MMA when a karate guy has gone in the ring there have been no clinches. Of course you can grab. For a start the boxer has to enter because the Okinawan karateka will wait.

But thanks for the reference. It is pretty much what I thought it was ... seeing I teach it. You stick to what you believe, this is the wrong thread to take it further.

What I'm saying is most kung fu or karate like Okinawan karate or Kenpo Karate or kung fu like win chun don't do well because of the distance.

A boxer or MMA fighter would not allow you to get that close. If you tried to get that close you get knockout. So you need good blocking and striking to do those moves.

And win chun probably do better than Okinawan karate or Kenpo Karate vs a boxer or MMA fighter.

Problem with most kung fu or most karate is the dynamics of fight is different with a boxer or MMA fighter.

With Okinawan karate or win chun you almost at the person face. And Okinawan karate would do worse than win chun because bad blocking and striking.

At least win chun is really fast striking ,better blocking and better hand striking.Only problem you need to be very close.

 

[Tez3]

What I'm saying is most kung fu or karate like Okinawan karate or Kenpo Karate or kung fu like win chun don't do well because of the distance.

A boxer or MMA fighter would not allow you to get that close. If you tried to get that close you get knockout. So you need good blocking and striking to do those moves.

And win chun probably do better than Okinawan karate or Kenpo Karate vs a boxer or MMA fighter.

Problem with most kung fu or most karate is the dynamics of fight is different with a boxer or MMA fighter.

With Okinawan karate or win chun you almost at the person face. And Okinawan karate would do worse than win chun because bad blocking and striking.

At least win chun is really fast striking ,better blocking and better hand striking.Only problem you need to be very close.

Do you not think that any fighter of any style going into MMA will train MMA? Why persist with the idea that a single stylist will go into the cage against an MMA fighter?

Whether you do well in MMA is NOT the indicator that a style is any good or not.

 

[Hanzou]

From what people tell me win chun on its own with do nothing with some one taking boxing.But if you take other martial arts and win chun it works really well.

The problem with most kung fu or most karate it is useless for today's fighting.

Like Okinawan karate or Kenpo Karate it is nice but it is useless for today's fighting with boxer or MMA.

It not the art it is today's fighting is so different.

There is an argument to be made for that viewpoint, and that argument could be utilized as a reasoning for why you don't see a lot of systems appearing in MMA competitions.

 

[Flying Crane]

From what people tell me win chun on its own with do nothing with some one taking boxing.But if you take other martial arts and win chun it works really well.

The problem with most kung fu or most karate it is useless for today's fighting.

Like Okinawan karate or Kenpo Karate it is nice but it is useless for today's fighting with boxer or MMA.

It not the art it is today's fighting is so different.

This is laughable stuff, that you write.

 

[Flying Crane]

What I'm saying is most kung fu or karate like Okinawan karate or Kenpo Karate or kung fu like win chun don't do well because of the distance.

A boxer or MMA fighter would not allow you to get that close. If you tried to get that close you get knockout. So you need good blocking and striking to do those moves.

And win chun probably do better than Okinawan karate or Kenpo Karate vs a boxer or MMA fighter.

Problem with most kung fu or most karate is the dynamics of fight is different with a boxer or MMA fighter.

With Okinawan karate or win chun you almost at the person face. And Okinawan karate would do worse than win chun because bad blocking and striking.

At least win chun is really fast striking ,better blocking and better hand striking.Only problem you need to be very close.

Wow, I'm speechless at the lack of knowledge this post illustrates.