Is Wing Chun being used the wrong way in fighting?

[Juany118]

If this doesn't make sense, let me know, Juany. It's not meant to be an implied condemnation - I'm expecting there's an answer to this if I ask it clearly enough.

What is the principle of progression from the forms to how it ends up in application? If it doesn't look like the forms, then how does someone in TWC know how to apply the principles from the forms?

Sorry this will be a little long.

This clearly wont be an exhaustive list but it will provide the basics.
1. SLT is the "alphabet." You are learning the importance of structure, the centerline, how to all ways maintain forwarding energy (while being relaxed), focus on the elbow and the basic hand and arm techniques that will be honed into skills eventually.

2. TWC has "advanced SLT" which is basically what I see as a good mid step to CK in that it introduces some basic foot work but beyond that is largely reinforcing the above. I believe TWC is the only WC lineage with such a "mid step" form

3. CK introduces kicking, the bulk of the footwork and how to generate power by orchestrating multiple muscles into such an action. In short it is increasingly imparting the concepts of efficiency that are hammered at with these concepts especially. Also it builds upon SLT in that where in SLT you most often move the left side and then the right side of your body, in CK you are far more often moving both sides at once as you would in a real fight.

Note: Yip Man said that a student who had been trained properly, up and to including, CK should be a competent fighter.

4. BJ builds even further upon the footwork and power generation of CK but then also includes the idea that you may lose control of the centerline and/or your structure and how one may recover this.

How does one know how to apply it if it doesn't "look" like the form?

Look at the main principles being taught. Control of you centerline and structure first. These are things you can in essence "feel". If your feet aren't in the perfect position you can still "feel" if your weight is distributed properly and adjust, either the body or the feet as the situation dictates. The same goes for other things. Perhaps I take my elbows a bit off centerline because I have someone throwing a lot of round attacks on me. I still have my center covered by portions of my arms and can close my guard quickly if needed, but I changed my guard ever so slightly to something the doesn't "look" WC but is still maintaining the centerline principle in an efficient fashion.

The same may go with attacks. Now "hook" punches are not commonly see in WC, but they are taught (in my experience) so you may have a WC practitioner say that I didn't do a WC punch, however they way I was taught to throw such a punch "feel" WC to me. It is always converging on the centerline and my structure is maintained because I use my entire body, including proper footwork, to power the punch. To those who haven't used a hook punch (we call it a buffalo punch in my school) think of the structural strength of a bong sau, then put power behind it with proper coordination for a attack. It's kinda like the inverse of when you are doing a straight punch that gets intercepted and now you are doing a tan sau

What did I mean by the last? Many people who know nothing of TWC, if they saw our forms blind, would think it is an art "similar" to WC but not WC. Also in a real fight am I going to be overly concerned about having that hand perfectly open for a tan sau or a bong sau? No, I am going to defend, if I was in the midst of striking that tan may have a fist on the end of it. If I am under pressure from a poser who thinks he should be in the UFC and thus is head hunting like an SOB, I am probably going to raise my guard a little bit. You are fighting an independent being, as such you can not rely on being in absolute control, you must learn to flow with your opponent as needed. When this happens, you can't be worried about "looking" WC. Yes you should maintain the principles but these principles are based in physics. I can maintain proper structure and keep my mass behind my attacks and defenses without constantly maintaining the picture perfect upright posture. I do A LOT of sinking (not bending over) defensively when my brother-in-law is throwing round kicks at my head, as an example. To become trapped in the forms and to put them on as high a pedestal as the principles, at least imo, invites you into traps.

Now this isn't to say you should take this attitude out of the gate, you certainly should NOT as a student. You have to VERY certain that you can instinctively put the principles into practice. Think of it like a Jazz Musician. They don't automatically start improvising like this

you start with sheet music, learn the use of flow, chord progression and rhythm and THEN when you have those principles down instinctively, you walk up to the stranger on the street and join in.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Sorry this will be a little long.

This clearly wont be an exhaustive list but it will provide the basics.
1. SLT is the "alphabet." You are learning the importance of structure, the centerline, how to all ways maintain forwarding energy (while being relaxed), focus on the elbow and the basic hand and arm techniques that will be honed into skills eventually.

2. TWC has "advanced SLT" which is basically what I see as a good mid step to CK in that it introduces some basic foot work but beyond that is largely reinforcing the above. I believe TWC is the only WC lineage with such a "mid step" form

3. CK introduces kicking, the bulk of the footwork and how to generate power by orchestrating multiple muscles into such an action. In short it is increasingly imparting the concepts of efficiency that are hammered at with these concepts especially. Also it builds upon SLT in that where in SLT you most often move the left side and then the right side of your body, in CK you are far more often moving both sides at once as you would in a real fight.

Note: Yip Man said that a student who had been trained properly, up and to including, CK should be a competent fighter.

4. BJ builds even further upon the footwork and power generation of CK but then also includes the idea that you may lose control of the centerline and/or your structure and how one may recover this.

How does one know how to apply it if it doesn't "look" like the form?

Look at the main principles being taught. Control of you centerline and structure first. These are things you can in essence "feel". If your feet aren't in the perfect position you can still "feel" if your weight is distributed properly and adjust, either the body or the feet as the situation dictates. The same goes for other things. Perhaps I take my elbows a bit off centerline because I have someone throwing a lot of round attacks on me. I still have my center covered by portions of my arms and can close my guard quickly if needed, but I changed my guard ever so slightly to something the doesn't "look" WC but is still maintaining the centerline principle in an efficient fashion.

The same may go with attacks. Now "hook" punches are not commonly see in WC, but they are taught (in my experience) so you may have a WC practitioner say that I didn't do a WC punch, however they way I was taught to throw such a punch "feel" WC to me. It is always converging on the centerline and my structure is maintained because I use my entire body, including proper footwork, to power the punch. To those who haven't used a hook punch (we call it a buffalo punch in my school) think of the structural strength of a bong sau, then put power behind it with proper coordination for a attack. It's kinda like the inverse of when you are doing a straight punch that gets intercepted and now you are doing a tan sau

What did I mean by the last? Many people who know nothing of TWC, if they saw our forms blind, would think it is an art "similar" to WC but not WC. Also in a real fight am I going to be overly concerned about having that hand perfectly open for a tan sau or a bong sau? No, I am going to defend, if I was in the midst of striking that tan may have a fist on the end of it. If I am under pressure from a poser who thinks he should be in the UFC and thus is head hunting like an SOB, I am probably going to raise my guard a little bit. You are fighting an independent being, as such you can not rely on being in absolute control, you must learn to flow with your opponent as needed. When this happens, you can't be worried about "looking" WC. Yes you should maintain the principles but these principles are based in physics. I can maintain proper structure and keep my mass behind my attacks and defenses without constantly maintaining the picture perfect upright posture. I do A LOT of sinking (not bending over) defensively when my brother-in-law is throwing round kicks at my head, as an example. To become trapped in the forms and to put them on as high a pedestal as the principles, at least imo, invites you into traps.

Now this isn't to say you should take this attitude out of the gate, you certainly should NOT as a student. You have to VERY certain that you can instinctively put the principles into practice. Think of it like a Jazz Musician. They don't automatically start improvising like this

you start with sheet music, learn the use of flow, chord progression and rhythm and THEN when you have those principles down instinctively, you walk up to the stranger on the street and join in.

Thanks!

 

[Anarax]

On another thread, Nobody Important posed the following question:

Clearly, and feel free to argue, Wing Chun as a fighting art has failed miserably when put to the test. Perhaps Wing Chun isn't supposed to look like your doing the forms when fighting, but more importantly, about learning how to refine gross motor skill to combined motor skill and fine motor skill when under duress. Is the art of Wing Chun being used wrong?

It's an old question, but one worthy of further discussion. What are your thoughts?

What exactly do you mean put to the test? If you're referring to when an out of shape "Instructor" was defeated in a MMA competition, then I can see what you mean. However; Wing Chun wasn't designed for competition, it was designed for everyday life. Wing Chun overall has declined in quality over the years, this is by in large due to it's increase in popularity. When you see good Wing Chun it's truly a site to behold though. You can go on youtube and find countless awful chi sao videos, but when you find a good one it's refreshing and shows you what Wing Chun truly is. It's not the system itself that has failed, but a lot of terrible instructors that have watered it down. I have two years of Wing Chun experience under two different instructors.

 

[geezer]

What exactly do you mean put to the test?

For a clearer answer, you'd have to ask forum member Nobody Important (the guy I was quoting).

Anyway, thanks for you comments!

 

[drop bear]

What exactly do you mean put to the test? If you're referring to when an out of shape "Instructor" was defeated in a MMA competition, then I can see what you mean. However; Wing Chun wasn't designed for competition, it was designed for everyday life. Wing Chun overall has declined in quality over the years, this is by in large due to it's increase in popularity. When you see good Wing Chun it's truly a site to behold though. You can go on youtube and find countless awful chi sao videos, but when you find a good one it's refreshing and shows you what Wing Chun truly is. It's not the system itself that has failed, but a lot of terrible instructors that have watered it down. I have two years of Wing Chun experience under two different instructors.

When the poor quality instruction is the rule and the good quality instruction is the exception.

It is the system.

Without competition you are not really using your art in a practical way.

 

[Anarax]

When the poor quality instruction is the rule and the good quality instruction is the exception.

It is the system.

Without competition you are not really using your art in a practical way.

I was addressing the structure, concepts and techniques of Wing Chun. The style itself is a great system, when taught correctly. Some styles have been more fortunate than others when it comes to quality decline. A lot of this has to do with popularity and compromised standards.

I agree that the wing chun schools that never spar and only do chi sao are setting themselves up for failure, but those are the low quality schools I'm referring to. I think Wing Chun schools should have a competitive nature and should train hard like any other martial art. I don't see it has a failing of the system, but a massive failing on the people that have contributed to its decline.

 

[drop bear]

I was addressing the structure, concepts and techniques of Wing Chun. The style itself is a great system, when taught correctly. Some styles have been more fortunate than others when it comes to quality decline. A lot of this has to do with popularity and compromised standards.

I agree that the wing chun schools that never spar and only do chi sao are setting themselves up for failure, but those are the low quality schools I'm referring to. I think Wing Chun schools should have a competitive nature and should train hard like any other martial art. I don't see it has a failing of the system, but a massive failing on the people that have contributed to its decline.

If nobody can use the system. It is the system.

If you refuse to separate the good from the bad then it colors the whole thing.

 

[Anarax]

If nobody can use the system. It is the system.

If you refuse to separate the good from the bad then it colors the whole thing.

It's inaccurate to state that nobody can use it, it's that many are taught incorrectly. There are plenty of highly skilled Wing Chun practitioners in the world that have been taught correctly.

Quality control of any Martial Art is impossible to maintain overall. However; as students we must learn to discern the good from the bad and fully recognize both. Thus we don't believe that any teachings under a certain style is unquestionable, nor should we believe that any teachings under another style is useless.

 

[drop bear]

It's inaccurate to state that nobody can use it, it's that many are taught incorrectly. There are plenty of highly skilled Wing Chun practitioners in the world that have been taught correctly.

Quality control of any Martial Art is impossible to maintain overall. However; as students we must learn to discern the good from the bad and fully recognize both. Thus we don't believe that any teachings under a certain style is unquestionable, nor should we believe that any teachings under another style is useless.

Yeah look there are outliers who are using wing chun successfully.

But they tend lo look completely different to your average chunner. Now that is fine if Barry red hot fighter has gumbies in his school. But when the gumbies are running the show you have an issue.

So you have guys for example in an Alan orr school who are really doing a different system In fact they cross train specifically in a different system.

And if you believe the guys on the Facebook forum. They are seriously taking notice of the different class of fighters these systems produce.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

When the poor quality instruction is the rule and the good quality instruction is the exception.

It is the system.

Without competition you are not really using your art in a practical way.

If by "system" you mean the whole of the people training the art, I agree. I think many use the term "system" to refer to the techniques and principles, and those can be taught myriad ways. While some people see the training methods used in WC as a part of the art, I've seen no evidence in any art, style, system, or even non-martial sport that changing the training methods must necessarily change the techniques and principles taught, except where adjustments are needed for functionality.

 

[KPM]

It's inaccurate to state that nobody can use it, it's that many are taught incorrectly. There are plenty of highly skilled Wing Chun practitioners in the world that have been taught correctly.

.

Great! Let's see some of their sparring videos! Preferably sparring someone other than a fellow Wing Chun guy.

 

[Anarax]

Great! Let's see some of their sparring videos! Preferably sparring someone other than a fellow Wing Chun guy.

It's not difficult to find videos of skilled Wing Chun practitioners. However; if people are set on believing something is useless, they will most likely continue to believe that regardless of the contrary evidence.

 

[drop bear]

If by "system" you mean the whole of the people training the art, I agree. I think many use the term "system" to refer to the techniques and principles, and those can be taught myriad ways. While some people see the training methods used in WC as a part of the art, I've seen no evidence in any art, style, system, or even non-martial sport that changing the training methods must necessarily change the techniques and principles taught, except where adjustments are needed for functionality.

The best example was guy B who mentioned swimming. Basically if I am doing brest stroke and you are doing freestyle you will go further faster with less effort.

The amount of training or individual ability would have to be so much greater than the other guy to make that work and it becomes not really atainable from a practical sense.

(obviously if you are mad keen to win races with just breast stroke go buck wild. Just realise the reality of the situation.)

Same with every endeveor. If you are aplying the wrong fundimentals you are either going to have to train much harder or just be born bigger and better than everybody else.

If you want the best results you have to train hard in a manner that will actually help you achieve the goal. Not train hard in some random manner and hope it works out.

So all of this means. (And this is a very basic martial arts concept) You have to have your fundimentals right. And this means you need your system to be working for you. Not against you.

You can see this with BJJ as an example. In the first fights vale tudo, mma, it worked because nobody had a clue as to how to deal with it. Then people did and BJJ had to fix its system.

Not just train harder or find better instructors. There was no lack of proficiency. Just they did not have the right skillset.

Now bjj is a much more diverse system. And it works considerably better.

 

[Juany118]

It's not difficult to find videos of skilled Wing Chun practitioners. However; if people are set on believing something is useless, they will most likely continue to believe that regardless of the contrary evidence.

The issue is this for many, including many of us who study WC.
1. It appears that a majority of skilled people are skilled in everything but full on sparring/free fighting. This is important because the consensus here is that without such pressure testing you lose real life effectiveness.
2. For those in #1 and even many who do spar, the effectiveness is shown only WC vs WC, which again impacts RL effectiveness.

Now we have all seen some decent videos of real pressure testing but the ratio of those videos to the ones that are questionable or just show drills etc isn't great.

 

[Juany118]

The best example was guy B who mentioned swimming. Basically if I am doing brest stroke and you are doing freestyle you will go further faster with less effort.

The amount of training or individual ability would have to be so much greater than the other guy to make that work and it becomes not really atainable from a practical sense.

(obviously if you are mad keen to win races with just breast stroke go buck wild. Just realise the reality of the situation.)

Same with every endeveor. If you are aplying the wrong fundimentals you are either going to have to train much harder or just be born bigger and better than everybody else.

If you want the best results you have to train hard in a manner that will actually help you achieve the goal. Not train hard in some random manner and hope it works out.

So all of this means. (And this is a very basic martial arts concept) You have to have your fundimentals right. And this means you need your system to be working for you. Not against you.

You can see this with BJJ as an example. In the first fights vale tudo, mma, it worked because nobody had a clue as to how to deal with it. Then people did and BJJ had to fix its system.

Not just train harder or find better instructors. There was no lack of proficiency. Just they did not have the right skillset.

Now bjj is a much more diverse system. And it works considerably better.

Some WC lineages do this. The problem is that all too often those of other Lineages will say it has stopped being WC because of the additions. I find this very odd for the YMWC Lineages though because YM himself did not teach in HK what he learned in his youth on the main land.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

if I am doing brest stroke and you are doing freestyle you will go further faster with less effort.

Let's compare these 2 different MA training.

1. Style A emphasizes on footwork. During the 1st day of the new students training, the teacher will require students to do fast running. The idea is even if you may not be able to find an opening on your opponent to attack, as long as you are moving, soon or later you will find your opponent's opening. The teacher then add punches into his student's running so his students will be good to attack a moving opponent.

2. Style B emphasizes on stance. During the 1st day of the new students training, the teacher will require students to stand still. The teacher then add punches into his student's standing so his students will be good to attack a static opinion.

Since these 2 approaches are different, it will produce different kind of students.

 

[Anarax]

Yeah look there are outliers who are using wing chun successfully.

But they tend lo look completely different to your average chunner. Now that is fine if Barry red hot fighter has gumbies in his school. But when the gumbies are running the show you have an issue.

So you have guys for example in an Alan orr school who are really doing a different system In fact they cross train specifically in a different system.

And if you believe the guys on the Facebook forum. They are seriously taking notice of the different class of fighters these systems produce.

I agree that there are many Wing Chun practitioners that are lacking in skill and poor students being promoted creates problems. I just opposed condemning an entire system because it's poorly represented.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Some WC lineages do this. The problem is that all too often those of other Lineages will say it has stopped being WC because of the additions. I find this very odd for the YMWC Lineages though because YM himself did not teach in HK what he learned in his youth on the main land.

One of YM's student told me that there was a tournament in Hong Kong. One CLF guy used a right hay-maker on a WC guy. The WC guy used left Tan Shou to block it. The CLF guy's right hay-maker knocked through the WC guy's left Tan Shou and still hit on the WC guy's head. Next day the WC guy asked YM. YM told him to use the right Tan Shou to block opponent's right hay-maker instead.

If your opponent always used straight punch, you should have no problem to use your

- left arm to block a right punch,
- right arm to block a left punch.

But to use left arm to block a powerful right hay-maker, even with body turning, that powerful hay-maker can still go through.

We don't know what kind of experience that the original WC founder might have for dealing with hay-maker. IMO, to change is a must.

 

[Anarax]

The issue is this for many, including many of us who study WC.
1. It appears that a majority of skilled people are skilled in everything but full on sparring/free fighting. This is important because the consensus here is that without such pressure testing you lose real life effectiveness.
2. For those in #1 and even many who do spar, the effectiveness is shown only WC vs WC, which again impacts RL effectiveness.

Now we have all seen some decent videos of real pressure testing but the ratio of those videos to the ones that are questionable or just show drills etc isn't great.

Yes, in Wing Chun you can find plenty of bad videos of both sparring and drills. I agree that the amount of bad to good is staggering. However; good videos do exist of Wing Chun. I see your point though

 

[drop bear]

Some WC lineages do this. The problem is that all too often those of other Lineages will say it has stopped being WC because of the additions. I find this very odd for the YMWC Lineages though because YM himself did not teach in HK what he learned in his youth on the main land.

And, and this is my issue. If the style is fine and it the the students or the training or the color of the uniforms or whatnot. They have a legitimate point.

You don't have to look at your style and start making it a viable alternative. You just have to bury your head in the sand and keep thinking there is a fault in the students or something.