Is this forum a hotbed of WC heresy?

[geezer]

I've noticed a disturbing trend among the long time posters on this WC forum. Many seem to be "on the outs" with their present or former sifus. We seem to have a lot of free-thinkers here, who after a training short, or perhaps, quite a long time under a traditional sifu, have gone on to train with other WC groups or on their own.

The students dedicated to a single sifu and his system don't seem to hang around here that long --except for the occasional "true-believer" who is out to convert others to their way of thinking. I guess if you feel that your sifu has all the answers, there isn't as much to discuss ...especially with folks from other branches and systems.

Another thing ...if you are still under the tutelage of a traditional sifu, he might not approve of you hanging out and sharing or debating his teaching. Most traditional sifus I've run into prefer that their students don't talk too much with outsiders.

So, that leaves us with fewer "devotees" and a lot more "seekers". I know that describes me. I do belong to a VT assn. -- but I live far from the HQ and I don't think they know how much I post here. They have their own little organization forum and would like me to post there, but I don't. Except regarding our Escrima curriculum since I'm in charge of that. Otherwise, I think my lines of inquiry might ruffle some feathers. So here I am. How about the rest of you?

 

[KPM]

I think you described me pretty accurately as well!

 

[Danny T]

My Chinese sifu is open. In his organization to become a full instructor you are required to have high level training in at least two other training methods. Not to have more skill but to have more knowledge of the martial arts and to understand how to use your wc skills against other methods...which of course gives us more skills and I believe makes our wc far more practical.

 

[Headhunter]

Why's that a disturbing trend? People going off and doing their own thing and finding out their own answers

 

[Callen]

Interesting perspective.

This sounds more like an issue of finding a good Sifu or coach that promotes the journey of self-discovery, guidance and proper development as a WC practitioner. Anyone that is looking for a Sifu with all the answers will only become disappointed. The issue lies within the student at that point, not the source.

 

[ShortBridge]

It's an interesting perspective and it wouldn't have occurred to me, but I can think of a few examples that support this position.

For me, I've not had a falling out with my SiFu. Though I run my own club (his idea), I still train with him every week and talk with him several times a week. I teach Duncan Leung lineage Wing Chun un-apologetically, as it was taught to me. I don't need or attempt to convert anyone. I'm in fact interested in learning about how other lineages train and what they think, though I'm very proud and confident in ours.

The WC community has some unique arch-types:

• JKD/Jun Fan. People claim Wing Chun who didn't learn it traditionally. It doesn't offend me, but I find it fairly impossible to converse about WC with people who have this perspective. I think that JKD/JF can be a really good way to train and I have no doubt that it can develop some good fighters, but it is not nearly as closely related to what I understand and believe about Wing Chun as people on the other side of that discussion usually think it is. Let's just call it a communication gap that I have stopped trying to solve on the internet. I might have better luck if it was a personal relationship in the real world. I will extend this archetype to any MMA type training that claims some aspect of WC training or techniques in what they do.
  
• Lineage faithfuls. I think there is more than one good and true and legitimate Wing Chun lineage. I believe that mine is one of them and I'm very proud of it, but I don't make claims about it beyond that and I've never heard Duncan make statements like that either, so I doubt he would approve of his name being associated with that mess. That said, the lineages that do make those claims, in my eyes, tend to have less legitimacy than those that keep to themselves. What I see on YouTube does not really look like what we do. Why? Because anyone can put stuff on YouTube and claim whatever they want about it. I rarely see someone I would seek out to train with because I respect them posting on YouTube. I've got zero public content like that and I don't think that anyone above me in my lineage would approve if I did. For an entire generation, YouTube and UFC are the only source of truth in the world. It's okay, I just don't have a lot to talk about with those people.
  
• People start in Wing Chun and then cross train. Nothing especially wrong with that, but after nearly 2 decades of Wing Chun, I'm still learning things, connecting things, developing. So, people who started "cross training" 1 or 2 years in, I think they miss a lot of that development, which means, their own system may not really make all that much sense to them. When someone talks about "using only the stuff that works" my first thought it Master Ken and my second is "how do they know what works if they haven't given it time?" I learned taan sao my first month of Wing Chun, I felt like I understood it maybe 5 years later. I get that there are faster ways to learn to fight and I don't fault anyone chosing them, but I'm glad I didn't "throw out" taan sao that first year...or 6 months, because it's something that I can use very effectively now. Again, no judgement, but it's hard to have really good dialogue on-line with people who see that point differently and I don't feel the need to proselytize.

I'm usually met with "how do you know if you haven't..." I trained in a variety of things for about 15 years PRIOR to Wing Chun and I've fought both for sport and for...I don't know, being an idiot...so someone can choose to believe that I lack perspective and that I'm a larper, but I won't every concede that point, so it's better to just avoid those debates.

I will say that, as another forum member accurately remarked to me, it is a characteristic of the Duncan Leung pai to be pretty private about what we do, certainly in a public forum like this. I keep a watch on myself to balance being open in my conversations with putting what I've received out more publicly than intended.

That difficult part is balancing contributing to a community like this, but consistently walking away from a lot of fruitless debates and exercising the willpower to leave a lot of things that I consider inaccurate uncorrected. I have learned things here and started some good relationships this way that I think will make me a better martial artist.

So, geezer, I think I'm an exception to your observation, which may not be totally without merit. I suggest that there are others, but they're just not as likely to be mixing it up in these debates.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Most traditional sifus I've run into prefer that their students don't talk too much with outsiders.

I think this is just old cultural thinking for the most part. That and the endless WC debates of "who is right and who is wrong" when it comes to doing "real wing chun." From a business point of view I can see that Sifu's would rather have paying students to learn what you know, instead of that information being given away for free. The perspective of "Why take a class if someone is going to give out the information for free?" can kill new student enrollment. It doesn't matter how great the school is, when people start thinking like this then the chance of them paying is almost zero.

The last time I actually purchased music was maybe 1995 because of the same mentality.

 

[ShortBridge]

I think this is just old cultural thinking for the most part. That and the endless WC debates of "who is right and who is wrong" when it comes to doing "real wing chun." From a business point of view I can see that Sifu's would rather have paying students to learn what you know, instead of that information being given away for free. The perspective of "Why take a class if someone is going to give out the information for free?" can kill new student enrollment. It doesn't matter how great the school is, when people start thinking like this then the chance of them paying is almost zero.

The last time I actually purchased music was maybe 1995 because of the same mentality.

I purchase music all the time, because I value and respect what it takes to produce it.

There may be some truth to what you say, but it's only one piece of the puzzle. The bigger issue is having 1st year students representing your system on YouTube or engaging in an endless arguement about your system with a 12 year old who watches UFC on TV and can "prove that what you do doesn't work."

 

[JowGaWolf]

The bigger issue is having 1st year students representing your system on YouTube or engaging in an endless arguement about your system with a 12 year old who watches UFC on TV and can "prove that what you do doesn't work."

Maybe. If that's the case then why is it a big issue for WC and not as big of an issue for other Chinese martial art systems. Is it because of the popularity of WC or how it's portrayed in the movies?

 

[wckf92]

It's an interesting perspective and it wouldn't have occurred to me, but I can think of a few examples that support this position.

For me, I've not had a falling out with my SiFu. Though I run my own club (his idea), I still train with him every week and talk with him several times a week. I teach Duncan Leung lineage Wing Chun un-apologetically, as it was taught to me. I don't need or attempt to convert anyone. I'm in fact interested in learning about how other lineages train and what they think, though I'm very proud and confident in ours.

The WC community has some unique arch-types:

• JKD/Jun Fan. People claim Wing Chun who didn't learn it traditionally. It doesn't offend me, but I find it fairly impossible to converse about WC with people who have this perspective. I think that JKD/JF can be a really good way to train and I have no doubt that it can develop some good fighters, but it is not nearly as closely related to what I understand and believe about Wing Chun as people on the other side of that discussion usually think it is. Let's just call it a communication gap that I have stopped trying to solve on the internet. I might have better luck if it was a personal relationship in the real world. I will extend this archetype to any MMA type training that claims some aspect of WC training or techniques in what they do.
  
• Lineage faithfuls. I think there is more than one good and true and legitimate Wing Chun lineage. I believe that mine is one of them and I'm very proud of it, but I don't make claims about it beyond that and I've never heard Duncan make statements like that either, so I doubt he would approve of his name being associated with that mess. That said, the lineages that do make those claims, in my eyes, tend to have less legitimacy than those that keep to themselves. What I see on YouTube does not really look like what we do. Why? Because anyone can put stuff on YouTube and claim whatever they want about it. I rarely see someone I would seek out to train with because I respect them posting on YouTube. I've got zero public content like that and I don't think that anyone above me in my lineage would approve if I did. For an entire generation, YouTube and UFC are the only source of truth in the world. It's okay, I just don't have a lot to talk about with those people.
  
• People start in Wing Chun and then cross train. Nothing especially wrong with that, but after nearly 2 decades of Wing Chun, I'm still learning things, connecting things, developing. So, people who started "cross training" 1 or 2 years in, I think they miss a lot of that development, which means, their own system may not really make all that much sense to them. When someone talks about "using only the stuff that works" my first thought it Master Ken and my second is "how do they know what works if they haven't given it time?" I learned taan sao my first month of Wing Chun, I felt like I understood it maybe 5 years later. I get that there are faster ways to learn to fight and I don't fault anyone chosing them, but I'm glad I didn't "throw out" taan sao that first year...or 6 months, because it's something that I can use very effectively now. Again, no judgement, but it's hard to have really good dialogue on-line with people who see that point differently and I don't feel the need to proselytize.

I'm usually met with "how do you know if you haven't..." I trained in a variety of things for about 15 years PRIOR to Wing Chun and I've fought both for sport and for...I don't know, being an idiot...so someone can choose to believe that I lack perspective and that I'm a larper, but I won't every concede that point, so it's better to just avoid those debates.

I will say that, as another forum member accurately remarked to me, it is a characteristic of the Duncan Leung pai to be pretty private about what we do, certainly in a public forum like this. I keep a watch on myself to balance being open in my conversations with putting what I've received out more publicly than intended.

That difficult part is balancing contributing to a community like this, but consistently walking away from a lot of fruitless debates and exercising the willpower to leave a lot of things that I consider inaccurate uncorrected. I have learned things here and started some good relationships this way that I think will make me a better martial artist.

So, geezer, I think I'm an exception to your observation, which may not be totally without merit. I suggest that there are others, but they're just not as likely to be mixing it up in these debates.

Good post

 

[Vajramusti]

I've noticed a disturbing trend among the long time posters on this WC forum. Many seem to be "on the outs" with their present or former sifus. We seem to have a lot of free-thinkers here, who after a training short, or perhaps, quite a long time under a traditional sifu, have gone on to train with other WC groups or on their own.
.

Another thing ...if you are still under the tutelage of a traditional sifu, he might not approve of you hanging out and sharing or debating his teaching. Most traditional sifus I've run into prefer that their students don't talk too much with outsiders.
So here I am. How about the rest of you?

---------------------------------------------------------------
I have had and still have
only one wing chun sifu-Augustine Fong. But I don't speak for him(he speaks for himself) but I speak from my knowledge and experience which includes learning from him, his sifu and kung fu brothers, sisters and cousins.

I check into some forums primarily to find out what is happening under the umbrella of wing chun.I am interested in other martial arts- but wing chun is my main art...and I get new insights practically every day.

Geezer originally invited me here and he still is a model forum member.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think this is just old cultural thinking for the most part. That and the endless WC debates of "who is right and who is wrong" when it comes to doing "real wing chun." From a business point of view I can see that Sifu's would rather have paying students to learn what you know, instead of that information being given away for free. The perspective of "Why take a class if someone is going to give out the information for free?" can kill new student enrollment. It doesn't matter how great the school is, when people start thinking like this then the chance of them paying is almost zero.

The last time I actually purchased music was maybe 1995 because of the same mentality.

I don't think that's quite analogous. If someone gives you the MP3 of a song, you have a faithful (if not exact) representation of what you'd get if you purchased it. If someone gives you a video of something from a martial art, you have only a video of what you'd have if you paid for lessons. If someone shares details of their style/training on a forum, you have even less.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

a lot more "seekers".

I know that I'm a "seeker" myself.

When my friend Jimmy Kao (Yip Man's student) taught me those 3 WC forms, I told him that I didn't agree with the WC approach that one only move his arms without moving his body during the beginner training stage.

In the following 2 clips, both show the training of body movement first. The arms movement can then be added in later. I have always believed that moving the body without moving the arms should be taught in the beginner training stage.

It's interested to compare different training methods and not only have faith in one approach. Most of the time, I only care about the best training method. I don't care too much about "style".

Since the

- TKD roundhouse kick training method is better than the long fist roundhouse kick training method, I have replaced my long fist roundhouse kick training method by the TKD roundhouse kick training method.
- MT roundhouse kick training method is better than the TKD roundhouse kick training method, I also have replaced my TKD roundhouse kick training method by the MT roundhouse kick training method.

Later on, if I can find roundhouse kick training method better than MT, I'll keep replacing it too. I like to "seek" the best training method.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I don't think that's quite analogous. If someone gives you the MP3 of a song, you have a faithful (if not exact) representation of what you'd get if you purchased it. If someone gives you a video of something from a martial art, you have only a video of what you'd have if you paid for lessons. If someone shares details of their style/training on a forum, you have even less.

My comment of using the MP3 was solely business related. If someone one gives you an MP3 of a song then why would you buy it? What would be the incentive to do so. From a business perspective martial arts works the same way. As instructors we provide information and knowledge.

Here's a real life case: I have a student that take the Jow Ga class, she's passionate about the class and as a result she likes to show her brother what she learned in class including techniques, fighting concepts, and theories, and discussions on human behavior responses. Her brother doesn't attend the class because in his mind, if he can get this information from her then why go to the school to learn from me. In his mind he is getting the (exact information) that his sister is getting. As a result there is no incentive to pay, what's even worse is that he could train under his sister's family package plan. If he splits the cost 3 ways then it's $20 a month for him. It doesn't matter what you know as an instructor, about the quality or quantity of the information that potential student is getting online. If the student feels that they are getting "enough" then that student won't make the investment to actually attend or pay for a class.

This is a simple case of what potential customers believe that they are receiving for free regardless if the information is complete or if it's accurate. We have seen a few people even here on the forum who try to juice us for information instead of investing in a class.

 

[ShortBridge]

Maybe. If that's the case then why is it a big issue for WC and not as big of an issue for other Chinese martial art systems. Is it because of the popularity of WC or how it's portrayed in the movies?

Maybe. I don't see a lot of MMA or any kind of JKD type systems that claim Northern Mantis or Hung Gar as one of the things they are experts on. No one is claiming that Fuzhou Sleeping Crane and Kali are virtually the same system and they have combined the two.

I also don't think most of those systems have the lineage problems that Wing Chun does. In part because their market appeal isn't as big and that did bring out the worst in some people associated with Wing Chun, but also they are smaller and more centrally represented.

I think there are a lot of reasons why Wing Chun politics are what they are. There are still groups within though that aren't after everyone's money and quietly go about their business. I've met a few through this forum and it makes me happy. Generally speaking, those people are not going to be the loudest in the conversation, though.

 

[Jsunlx]

I've noticed a disturbing trend among the long time posters on this WC forum. Many seem to be "on the outs" with their present or former sifus. We seem to have a lot of free-thinkers here, who after a training short, or perhaps, quite a long time under a traditional sifu, have gone on to train with other WC groups or on their own.

The students dedicated to a single sifu and his system don't seem to hang around here that long --except for the occasional "true-believer" who is out to convert others to their way of thinking. I guess if you feel that your sifu has all the answers, there isn't as much to discuss ...especially with folks from other branches and systems.

Another thing ...if you are still under the tutelage of a traditional sifu, he might not approve of you hanging out and sharing or debating his teaching. Most traditional sifus I've run into prefer that their students don't talk too much with outsiders.

So, that leaves us with fewer "devotees" and a lot more "seekers". I know that describes me. I do belong to a VT assn. -- but I live far from the HQ and I don't think they know how much I post here. They have their own little organization forum and would like me to post there, but I don't. Except regarding our Escrima curriculum since I'm in charge of that. Otherwise, I think my lines of inquiry might ruffle some feathers. So here I am. How about the rest of you?

Nothing wrong with being a seeker. What's really 'disturbing' is when a certain seeker spends little to no actual time training with a certain Sifu in a particular lineage, moves on to something different, and then turns around and calls themselves an instructor in that lineage.

 

[ShortBridge]

I know that I'm a "seeker" myself.

When my friend Jimmy Kao (Yip Man's student) taught me those 3 WC forms, I told him that I didn't agree with the WC approach that one only move his arms without moving his body during the beginner training stage.

In the following 2 clips, both show the training of body movement first. The arms movement can then be added in later. I have always believed that moving the body without moving the arms should be taught in the beginner training stage.

It's interested to compare different training methods and not only have faith in one approach. Most of the time, I only care about the best training method. I don't care too much about "style".

Since the

- TKD roundhouse kick training method is better than the long fist roundhouse kick training method, I have replaced my long fist roundhouse kick training method by the TKD roundhouse kick training method.
- MT roundhouse kick training method is better than the TKD roundhouse kick training method, I also have replaced my TKD roundhouse kick training method by the MT roundhouse kick training method.

Later on, if I can find roundhouse kick training method better than MT, I'll keep replacing it too. I like to "seek" the best training method.

See, I think that's fine. I think it's great. You've chosen a different path than me and I would never suggest or even think that you were wrong.

But, you feel compelled and entitled to do it to Wing Chun practitioners all the time.

Let's add that to the reasons that not everyone who practices and teaches Wing Chun traditionally wants to open themselves up to open forum discussion on their life's work.

 

[Eric_H]

What makes you think I was ever "on the ins?"

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My comment of using the MP3 was solely business related. If someone one gives you an MP3 of a song then why would you buy it? What would be the incentive to do so. From a business perspective martial arts works the same way. As instructors we provide information and knowledge.

Here's a real life case: I have a student that take the Jow Ga class, she's passionate about the class and as a result she likes to show her brother what she learned in class including techniques, fighting concepts, and theories, and discussions on human behavior responses. Her brother doesn't attend the class because in his mind, if he can get this information from her then why go to the school to learn from me. In his mind he is getting the (exact information) that his sister is getting. As a result there is no incentive to pay, what's even worse is that he could train under his sister's family package plan. If he splits the cost 3 ways then it's $20 a month for him. It doesn't matter what you know as an instructor, about the quality or quantity of the information that potential student is getting online. If the student feels that they are getting "enough" then that student won't make the investment to actually attend or pay for a class.

This is a simple case of what potential customers believe that they are receiving for free regardless if the information is complete or if it's accurate. We have seen a few people even here on the forum who try to juice us for information instead of investing in a class.

I don't think people like that are likely to come into a school, in any case. He's only interested in what's free. If he thinks a student can teach what they just learned as well as their instructor could, he wouldn't last long (expects fast expertise). If not, then he's just comfortable with taking what he can get. In either case, the school probably isn't actually losing much money. And I've trained with folks who started at a school because of information and techniques a friend shared with them. They liked it and wanted to learn from an instructor, so they joined.

 

[anerlich]

I've had four highly influential instructors, and I remain on very good terms with three of them.

I met my first instructor, David Crook in 1977. He had studied Wing Chun under William Cheung, but they had a falling out (not exactly Robinson Crusoe on that one). He was already pretty highly ranked in Goju Ryu Karate and taught a hybrid system of Wing Chun and a couple of other TCMA's thrown in. As improbable as it sounds, this was a very effective system, one whose forms I practice to this day. David was unusual on that he went out of his way to befriend other instructors in his locality and welcome new instructors when they arrived, even to the extent of sub-leasing his training premises to one such instructor at a very nominal fee to help him get established. He still trains and teaches to this day.

While I live in a different city and this was a LONG time ago, I would invite him over for a meal if I found he was in town, and he would do (and has done) the same if I were in his 'hood.

I had a Xingyi / Bagua instructor I trained with for about five years who was very manipulative with a small messiah complex. He could have been a successful cult leader were he less disorganised and his personal life less of a train wreck. He was one of the first Gwailo acupuncturists in Australia. He had a high Dan rank in Karate as well and could certainly fight himself - his students, not so much. I learned a lot of peripheral stuff about TCM, the Yijing, some Qigong, etc. but the Kung Fu was actually pretty basic. My personal life took some very strange twists due to this individual, and I came close to reaching full instructor level in his system. But I decided it was getting too weird and cut my losses. This guy no longer teaches Kung Fu. I could easily look him up if I wanted to, but I never will.

I've been with my current Wing Chun instructor since 1989. I've been a full instructor since 1995, and a "master" since 2011. Strictly on paper. I've taught for well over 20 years. I go to his kwoon twice a week. But ... mainly because I teach Jiu Jitsu there. Sometimes, just yesterday in fact, my wing Chun instructor is now my student for Jiu Jitsu.

My instructor was William Cheung's senior student up until 1996. There was a pivotal moment instigated by the GM, and then my instructor was on his own. In GM Cheung's wake there is a conflagration of burned bridges. Not Robinson Crusoe. It isn't always the student's fault. You can be a heretic, but your "God" can also cast you into Outer Darkness.

He introduced me and the rest of the kwoon to Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and included it in the curriculum. Some loved it, some hated it, some left. I was in the former camp. After a few years I found I couldn't get enough Jiu Jitsu at a part time school, tried a few other places, and ended up at my current Jiu Jitsu academy. The coach there was my WC instructor's BJJ coach for a while. Now he's my coach, and I teach BJJ at his academy semi-regularly. He also teaches Muay Thai, MMA and Arnis. Without spreading himself too thin.

My WC instructor has been a BJJ brown belt for about eight years. It's hard to fully immerse yourself in another art while you're running a full time Wing Chun school. I had no such responsibilities and could pursue Jiu Jitsu without distraction at this new academy. I trained there today, and I've been a black belt now for a bit over three years.

My WC instructor did manage to get himself a black belt in Kyokushin Karate along the way. He continues to have aspirations as a student as well as a teacher. after 43 years in the arts.

I'm still a student myself. In the last five weeks, I've taken three Steve Maxwell seminars, gone to a brown and black belt Machado BJJ training day, taken a Qigong seminar with Steve Maxwell's Qigong teacher, Stanley Tam, and I have another BJJ seminar on Sunday. That'll do it until the IBJJF rules seminar at the end of March.

The point? If there is one. Your circumstances change, your interests grow, develop, and change. You only get one life. It belongs to you, not Sifu.

As an instructor now myself, I'd feel I'd chosen my senior students poorly if they didn't develop their own goals and interests in the martial arts, and take steps to actualise themselves in those directions. I know there are other people out there that are WAY better than me at many aspects of martial arts, and I need to be mindful to give students with a hunger for those aspects the opportunity to experience the best from the best. I'm supposed to make my sstudents better than me.

If I want someone to worship me and follow me for life, I'll get a dog. I expect more from my fellow humans.

Wanting something an instructor can't provide isn't necessarily a reflection on them. You can change course and follow a different path without alienating yourself from the people who put you on the original path. The only former instructor I don't have a good relationship with is the one where I chose to make the break.