Is taekwondo a form of karate?

[exile]

I have thanked and repped everyone who responded. I really appreciate all of your responses and I really appreciate the very mature and polite way that this potentially contentious subject has been discussed.

The responses given, as I am sure responses to come, have been very helpful to me and have been very thoughtful and articulate.

My thanks to you all!

Daniel

And thanks to you, CT, for formulating it in such a direct and thought-provoking way.

It's funny, because the thread started up just at a point when, as a result of some of the other discussions going on, I was beginning to chew over in my mind this whole question of what gives a MA the particular identity it has, and whether or not there's a useful distinction between what a MA 'is', in the critical sense, vs. what we think it is. I see some important boundaries—I doubt anyone would want to see aikido and kyokushin karate as slightly different versions of each other! :lol:—but when you get into the Korean, Japanese, Okinawan and some of the CMA striking arts, a lot of the issues that people have been talking about in this thread come up.

And you're dead right about the nice tone of the discussion.... well done, all!

 

[Twin Fist]

interesting side note, here in texas, most of the schools from the Allen Steen line cal themselves AKA's

American Karate Academy's

most likely for marketing purposes, but also because when Jhoon Rhee came over, TKD was not really a seperate entity. So his students called it what he called it: Korean Karate.

From the perspective of a non-martial artist, there are only 2 martial arts:

karate
kung fu

everything else is a form of those.

From the perspective of a martial artists, i think TKD "was" a form a karate, but it had evolved and grown to be it's onw seperate being.

Modern KKW TKD is NOT a form of karate, since karate is a self defense art and KKW TKD is a sport art, IMO

 

[Deaf Smith]

Korean Karate is what I've heard many times. It sure does not upset me.

Real funny thing is, Taekwondo Moo Duk Kwan, which I trained in at SFA, used TOTALY Shotokan kata. Yes I learned Bassai-Sho with a few slight changes! Our punching was Shototkan. Only the kicking was pure Korean style kicks and of course, Korean words were used.

I sure don't sweat the term Karate. Most of the public thinks all asian arts are 'Karate'.

Deaf

 

[YoungMan]

No, Taekwondo is NOT a form of karate. Originally, there was a stronger karate influence because of the Japanese occupation. However, as Koreans rediscovered themselves and their culture, those influences were swept away in favor of what we would consider Korean influences.

1. The Palgue, Taegeuk, and Koryo forms contain only middle and high kicks, and are executed more fluidly and with longer actions than karate forms. Additionally, there are no snap kicks, only thrust kicks.

2. The sparring is much more fluid, a la Taekkyon, than karate sparring. I've seen karate sparring, and it seems very rigid, in close, and haphazard. Aditionally, Taekwondo sparring is much more upright, very similar to way Taekkyon fighters spar.

3. Much more inclusion of Taekkyon circular, spinning, high, jumping, and jump spinning kicks that you don't see in karate.

 

[exile]

1. The Palgue, Taegeuk, and Koryo forms contain only middle and high kicks, and are executed more fluidly and with longer actions than karate forms. Additionally, there are no snap kicks, only thrust kicks.

I'm surprised to hear you say that—we do the Palgwes exclusively as our colored belt forms, and the front kicks (e.g., those in Palgwe I Jang, Palgwe Sa Jang, Palgwe Yuk Jang, and Palgwe Chil Jang (my personal favorite)) all have front snap kicks. The other kicks in the Palgwes are are side kicks, and yes, they're the signature side thrust kicks—but the front kicks are all performed as snaps.

 

[punisher73]

At one point, yes it was then it evlolved into it's own art. Much like Shorin-ryu went to Japan and became "more japenese" and became Shotokan. Shotokan went to Korea and evolved to it own thing through Gen. Choi to reflect Korean ideas. (yes, I realize there was more to it than that, just trying to simplify it)

If you look at Isshinryu it looks VERY different than Shorin-Ryu where alot of it came from, yet in Okinawan it is still classified as a substyle of Shorin-ryu. So, TKD could be considered an offshoot of karate even though now in many branches it bares little resemblance to it's parent.

It doesn't matter in the end, it only becomes important when you are trying to trace the family tree of your roots.

 

[exile]

If you look at Isshinryu it looks VERY different than Shorin-Ryu where alot of it came from, yet in Okinawan it is still classified as a substyle of Shorin-ryu. So, TKD could be considered an offshoot of karate even though now in many branches it bares little resemblance to it's parent.

That's a very nice example, punisher... to some eyes, the difference between Isshinryu and Shorin-ryu might be as great as that between TKD and Shotokan, but the classification of the first two as different branches of karate is going to be way less contentious than grouping TKD and Shotokan together under that heading. So much history and symbolic meaning comes into it...

It doesn't matter in the end, it only becomes important when you are trying to trace the family tree of your roots.

But I think it does say something about how our perception of things, and our sense of what they really are, are affected by all kinds of background assumptions... always worth bearing in mind when the discussion gets really heated, eh?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

1. The Palgue, Taegeuk, and Koryo forms contain only middle and high kicks, and are executed more fluidly and with longer actions than karate forms. Additionally, there are no snap kicks, only thrust kicks.

No snap kicks in taekwondo or karate? There are snap kicks in the taekgeuks.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

At one point, yes it was then it evlolved into it's own art. Much like Shorin-ryu went to Japan and became "more japenese" and became Shotokan. Shotokan went to Korea and evolved to it own thing through Gen. Choi to reflect Korean ideas (yes, I realize there was more to it than that, just trying to simplify it).

If you look at Isshinryu it looks VERY different than Shorin-Ryu where alot of it came from, yet in Okinawan it is still classified as a substyle of Shorin-ryu. So, TKD could be considered an offshoot of karate even though now in many branches it bares little resemblance to it's parent.

That is generally how I perceive the origins. I appreciate.

It doesn't matter in the end, it only becomes important when you are trying to trace the family tree of your roots.

Very true, and that is kind of what I'm trying to do.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

If you look at Isshinryu it looks VERY different than Shorin-Ryu where alot of it came from, yet in Okinawan it is still classified as a substyle of Shorin-ryu. So, TKD could be considered an offshoot of karate even though now in many branches it bares little resemblance to it's parent.

It doesn't matter in the end, it only becomes important when you are trying to trace the family tree of your roots.

Yeah, I always thought the classification of Isshin-ryu as a shorin-ryu style as somewhat arbitrary. The art certainly owes a lot to its Goju-ryu roots as well with a few shared kata albeit altered from the original. I frequently share bunkai with some Isshin-ryu friends when asked about various empty hand kata. Much of the Goju bunkai is still applicable, so in case it does help to know the history of your system and where you can go for more education or help.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

it does help to know the history of your system and where you can go for more education or help.

I agree. This is the main reason for my posting this topic.

Daniel

 

[jim777]

Korean Karate is what I've heard many times. It sure does not upset me.

Real funny thing is, Taekwondo Moo Duk Kwan, which I trained in at SFA, used TOTALY Shotokan kata. Yes I learned Bassai-Sho with a few slight changes! Our punching was Shototkan. Only the kicking was pure Korean style kicks and of course, Korean words were used.

I sure don't sweat the term Karate. Most of the public thinks all asian arts are 'Karate'.

Deaf

Exactly; Karate isn't even an art, it's a subject heading.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Exactly; Karate isn't even an art, it's a subject heading.

Now, just playing devil's advocate, there are those who say that taekwondo is an umbrella term as well.

Daniel

 

[arnisador]

Well, you don't have to be a TKD black belt to compete in Olympic TKD, do you? A karateka could? That'll make it more generic, I'm afraid.

A lot of TSDers who know I'm a martial artists but not a KMAer have initially described themselves as TKDers and then explained at greater detail what exactly they were. It's a classic: "Where are you from?" "Buffalo." "Me too? Where in Buffalo?" "Well, actually it's West Seneca." "Me too! Where in West Seneca?" "Well, actually Ebenezer (a village within it)."

 

[YoungMan]

Now, just playing devil's advocate, there are those who say that taekwondo is an umbrella term as well.

Daniel

Umbrella term perhaps in the sense that you can be Kukkiwon-style, ITF, ATA, WTA, or perhaps independent. If you practice Tang Soo Do, Hapkido, or some other Korean style, though, that's not Taekwondo.

 

[terryl965]

Umbrella term perhaps in the sense that you can be Kukkiwon-style, ITF, ATA, WTA, or perhaps independent. If you practice Tang Soo Do, Hapkido, or some other Korean style, though, that's not Taekwondo.

Society has made it a genetic term not the TKD'ers that I know. We do TKD weather anybody likes it or not. Now are roots are heavy Karate influence and we all know that.

 

[Zendokan]

I'm back and after this post I'm going to get banned, I'm sure of it, but this has to be said.
Is taekwondo a form of karate? No, tang soo do is a form of karate, infact it was karate.
The "TSD fighting form" was the "TKD style" that General Choi wanted and designed. So why did the "old school TKD" changed in "olympic TKD", well TKD was used as a cultural propaganda tool and the process to get TKD as an olympic sport ( which started maybe already in the early seventies) changed it from a martial art to a competition sport.
The sport TKD resembles in nothing anymore to the vision of General Choi, no kicking below the waste, no punches to the face, hell there are almost no punches at all and there's no guard (everyone keeps there hands down) because of the side-stand.

To restore TKD to his old glory, we have to start training Savate, which in fighting style resembles for 95% "old school" TKD, add the Palgwé forms (loose the Tageuks, center of gravity is too high), loose the chestprotector and helmet (footprotecters, a shell and boxing gloves are enough). At that moment can we speak again that TKD belongs to the karate family whilest now it's just a poor offshoot of the karate family.

But this will not be possible before TKD loses the "olympic" status and popularity.

Like I said, most of you aren't going to like this post, heck I don't even like this post, but it's minutes for midnight if TKD wants to become again a respectable martial art.

 

[terryl965]

I'm back and after this post I'm going to get banned, I'm sure of it, but this has to be said.
Is taekwondo a form of karate? No, tang soo do is a form of karate, infact it was karate.
The "TSD fighting form" was the "TKD style" that General Choi wanted and designed. So why did the "old school TKD" changed in "olympic TKD", well TKD was used as a cultural propaganda tool and the process to get TKD as an olympic sport ( which started maybe already in the early seventies) changed it from a martial art to a competition sport.
The sport TKD resembles in nothing anymore to the vision of General Choi, no kicking below the waste, no punches to the face, hell there are almost no punches at all and there's no guard (everyone keeps there hands down) because of the side-stand.

To restore TKD to his old glory, we have to start training Savate, which in fighting style resembles for 95% "old school" TKD, add the Palgwé forms (loose the Tageuks, center of gravity is too high), loose the chestprotector and helmet (footprotecters, a shell and boxing gloves are enough). At that moment can we speak again that TKD belongs to the karate family whilest now it's just a poor offshoot of the karate family.

But this will not be possible before TKD loses the "olympic" status and popularity.

Like I said, most of you aren't going to like this post, heck I don't even like this post, but it's minutes for midnight if TKD wants to become again a respectable martial art.

Why would nobody like your post it was well written and has some interesting views. We love to debate the position of each other and not a flame war. So as long as your post are like this you are doing fine.

 

[Zendokan]

Thank you very much Terryl965,

I have seen the politics of the KKW to promote the olympic and destroy the old school. Propaganda and Politics are best left out any martial arts practise, but in the case of TKD it wasn't.

Alot of good TKDers left TKD and went to Savate (here in Belgium it's easy to find since we're a neighbour of France), Muay Thai or Kyokushin Karate.
If we could create a movement to attracked these people back to TKD it would be a win situation.

 

[Twin Fist]

I'm back and after this post I'm going to get banned, I'm sure of it, but this has to be said.
Is taekwondo a form of karate? No, tang soo do is a form of karate, infact it was karate.
The "TSD fighting form" was the "TKD style" that General Choi wanted and designed. So why did the "old school TKD" changed in "olympic TKD", well TKD was used as a cultural propaganda tool and the process to get TKD as an olympic sport ( which started maybe already in the early seventies) changed it from a martial art to a competition sport.
The sport TKD resembles in nothing anymore to the vision of General Choi, no kicking below the waste, no punches to the face, hell there are almost no punches at all and there's no guard (everyone keeps there hands down) because of the side-stand.

To restore TKD to his old glory, we have to start training Savate, which in fighting style resembles for 95% "old school" TKD, add the Palgwé forms (loose the Tageuks, center of gravity is too high), loose the chestprotector and helmet (footprotecters, a shell and boxing gloves are enough). At that moment can we speak again that TKD belongs to the karate family whilest now it's just a poor offshoot of the karate family.

But this will not be possible before TKD loses the "olympic" status and popularity.

Like I said, most of you aren't going to like this post, heck I don't even like this post, but it's minutes for midnight if TKD wants to become again a respectable martial art.

edited because i read your post a few more times and it started to make more sense

I agree. Choi wanted a strong SD art. The KKW people wanted a sport.

I agree