Is Knife defence even worth teaching?

[elder999]

I'm also not entirely sure what you're meaning by the "military arm-bar style defence"... can you show a link, or provide a more detailed description?

View attachment $wallyhandarmbar2.gifView attachment $thumbnail.jpg

 

[Chris Parker]

Cool, thanks Elder... I've seen a few things that could have been meant, this among them. So, taking this as the actual one that Dan is talking about, to be blunt, there are a range of potential issues that I can see... if we're talking about non-military attacks (personal defence). I'm not saying it can't work, but there are better technologies out there.

 

[elder999]

Cool, thanks Elder... I've seen a few things that could have been meant, this among them. So, taking this as the actual one that Dan is talking about, to be blunt, there are a range of potential issues that I can see... if we're talking about non-military attacks (personal defence). I'm not saying it can't work, but there are better technologies out there.

Pick one. U.S military combatives used to mean simpler. Not quite true, anymore, but there it is-there's a few of them, but they all are basically the same thing. Maybe they work, maybe they don't, but they were developed to that point to teach to people who carry guns for a living, against people with little or no training-certainly less than the people who were trained to di it....

So, they mostly work, but sometimes won't.

 

[Chris Parker]

Yeah, I know what you mean... there is an automatic assumption sometimes that what is taught to a particular group, due to the focus (or, at least, the image of that focus) that whatever they do is purely designed for practicality in that one area. I was once shown some of what is taught for knife defence to some police here.... my immediate reaction was "what, so they want the police to be killed?" The above military method can work against a particular type of attack, which is very influenced by the military methods and approaches, which isn't really the same thing as a "street" attack on a number of levels.

 

[Bluesman]

I think it is worth training because any training is better than no training. However, teachers should make it clear to the student that when someone has a knife that odds are seriously stacked against you. 8 or 9 times out of 10 in will NOT work. When I used to come out of my Krav Maga class there were a bunch of guys all pumped up thinking that they could disarm any knife wielding maniac!!

 

[Paul_D]

A bit long, but worth a it. This sums it up for me.

Weapon Defence | Iain Abernethy

 

[Kenpoguy123]

Well any training is better than no training as long as it's from a competent instructor. Truth is anything can work in certain situations. Say you learn one knife defence one time it might help you another time it might be useless. There's no guarantees in fighting and in martial arts. If someone says this move is going to work 100% of the time then they're lying

 

[crazydiamond]

We do a lot of knife training. Knife on Knife and Knife vs empty hand. Basically we are told if someone has a knife (or any weapon) run, unless you are trapped and can not escape or have to defend family/children. Also prepare to take damage.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Well any training is better than no training as long as it's from a competent instructor.

Well, unless it leads to the student developing a false sense of confidence and trying to stand and fight against a knife when they should be running or looking for a weapon of their own.

I think that even with competent instruction (which is unfortunately rarer than it should be), you need a certain minimum time spent on the subject to get a student to the point where it's more likely to help than hurt.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Well, unless it leads to the student developing a false sense of confidence and trying to stand and fight against a knife when they should be running or looking for a weapon of their own.

I think that even with competent instruction (which is unfortunately rarer than it should be), you need a certain minimum time spent on the subject to get a student to the point where it's more likely to help than hurt.

And given the rarity with which the training will be used (most people are unlikely to ever need to physically defend themselves at all, and of those that do, most will be facing an unarmed opponent), is the time worthwhile?

Personally, I think it is, but I tend to think that it's better left until a solid grounding in the more commonly used aspects of the art has been gained.

My own preferred knife defense sits behind my right hip. Except when I'm at work, since the hospital administration is far enough detached from reality to think that "No Weapons" signs on the doors will protect us.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

And given the rarity with which the training will be used (most people are unlikely to ever need to physically defend themselves at all, and of those that do, most will be facing an unarmed opponent), is the time worthwhile?

Personally, I think it is, but I tend to think that it's better left until a solid grounding in the more commonly used aspects of the art has been gained.

That's sort of where I come down on the issue. I don't include knife defense in my beginning BJJ classes, but the fundamental skills I'm teaching will hopefully be useful if the students want to learn knife defenses later on.

 

[lklawson]

My biggest problem with most unarmed knife defense is that most of them assume a certain degree of ineptitude from the knife attacker. I'm not talking about the classic Jim Carry over-hand stab or the full lunge-stab which hangs in the air, but rather a caveman-esque lack of even the most basic sophistication. It seems that most assume that the person attacking with a knife is not only untrained in its use but also is fairly unfamiliar with it as a tool of attack. Almost as if a person who's never used a steak knife at the table or a pairing knife in the kitchen decides one day to go out and attack me with a really weird shiny thing he found in the street with a pointy end.

Sadly, I'm not sure there's much to be done about this because when you apply even a modicum of sophistication in knife use against an unarmed defender, the odds of success go from abysmal to "where do I send the flowers?"

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Tony Dismukes]

My biggest problem with most unarmed knife defense is that most of them assume a certain degree of ineptitude from the knife attacker. I'm not talking about the classic Jim Carry over-hand stab or the full lunge-stab which hangs in the air, but rather a caveman-esque lack of even the most basic sophistication. It seems that most assume that the person attacking with a knife is not only untrained in its use but also is fairly unfamiliar with it as a tool of attack. Almost as if a person who's never used a steak knife at the table or a pairing knife in the kitchen decides one day to go out and attack me with a really weird shiny thing he found in the street with a pointy end.

Sadly, I'm not sure there's much to be done about this because when you apply even a modicum of sophistication in knife use against an unarmed defender, the odds of success go from abysmal to "where do I send the flowers?"

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

That's why I say that unarmed defenses against the knife range from "just might possibly work if you are skilled and lucky and your attacker is neither" to "will just make you look stupid as you get yourself killed." Too many instructors teach stuff from that second category, but it's important to recognize that even the best techniques only fall into the first category.

That's why Marc Denny refers to that sort of training as learning to "die less often."

 

[drop bear]

My biggest problem with most unarmed knife defense is that most of them assume a certain degree of ineptitude from the knife attacker. I'm not talking about the classic Jim Carry over-hand stab or the full lunge-stab which hangs in the air, but rather a caveman-esque lack of even the most basic sophistication. It seems that most assume that the person attacking with a knife is not only untrained in its use but also is fairly unfamiliar with it as a tool of attack. Almost as if a person who's never used a steak knife at the table or a pairing knife in the kitchen decides one day to go out and attack me with a really weird shiny thing he found in the street with a pointy end.

Sadly, I'm not sure there's much to be done about this because when you apply even a modicum of sophistication in knife use against an unarmed defender, the odds of success go from abysmal to "where do I send the flowers?"

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Mount is a terrible position to fight from. So you get taught to escape that position. I am leaning towards that as the better concept for unarmed against knife.

 

[lklawson]

That's why Marc Denny refers to that sort of training as learning to "die less often."

I've always loved that title. I'm still mad that I didn't think of it first.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Dirty Dog]

My biggest problem with most unarmed knife defense is that most of them assume a certain degree of ineptitude from the knife attacker. I'm not talking about the classic Jim Carry over-hand stab or the full lunge-stab which hangs in the air, but rather a caveman-esque lack of even the most basic sophistication. It seems that most assume that the person attacking with a knife is not only untrained in its use but also is fairly unfamiliar with it as a tool of attack. Almost as if a person who's never used a steak knife at the table or a pairing knife in the kitchen decides one day to go out and attack me with a really weird shiny thing he found in the street with a pointy end.

Sadly, I'm not sure there's much to be done about this because when you apply even a modicum of sophistication in knife use against an unarmed defender, the odds of success go from abysmal to "where do I send the flowers?"

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

That's pretty much true of unarmed vs ANY weapon. If you person with the weapon knows how to use it, you're in trouble.
A person who knows how to use a knife doesn't over commit.
A person who knows how to use a gun doesn't stand in contact range.
Etc etc etc.

Success unarmed vs a weapon requires one of two things.
1 - The armed person doesn't really know how to use it.
2 - You can stay alive and mobile until they make a bad mistake.

Can the 2nd be done vs a knife? Sure. If you're good, and lucky. I've done it in training. But I got simulated sliced all to hell more often than I survived.

I've faced a real knife twice. In one case, the person was very clearly in category one. In the other, I lost an eye.
Not exactly a great record.

 

[lklawson]

That's pretty much true of unarmed vs ANY weapon. If you person with the weapon knows how to use it, you're in trouble.
A person who knows how to use a knife doesn't over commit.
A person who knows how to use a gun doesn't stand in contact range.
Etc etc etc.

Success unarmed vs a weapon requires one of two things.
1 - The armed person doesn't really know how to use it.
2 - You can stay alive and mobile until they make a bad mistake.

Can the 2nd be done vs a knife? Sure. If you're good, and lucky. I've done it in training. But I got simulated sliced all to hell more often than I survived.

I've faced a real knife twice. In one case, the person was very clearly in category one. In the other, I lost an eye.
Not exactly a great record.

Yup. And that's my problem. The thing is, as I said, I'm not sure there's much to be done about it, really. Either you train and hope for the best or don't train and accept the worst.

An old Silat buddy of mine used to say something along the lines of, "Sure, but it's better than wetting your pants and crying like a little girl."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Dirty Dog]

Agreed. As I said, once a student has a solid grounding in the core aspects of the system, teaching things like knife defense is a good idea. You're in a crappy position no matter what, but you might get lucky.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

That's pretty much true of unarmed vs ANY weapon. If you person with the weapon knows how to use it, you're in trouble.
A person who knows how to use a knife doesn't over commit.
A person who knows how to use a gun doesn't stand in contact range.
Etc etc etc.

Success unarmed vs a weapon requires one of two things.
1 - The armed person doesn't really know how to use it.
2 - You can stay alive and mobile until they make a bad mistake.

What's really scary about working against the knife is that sometimes the knife wielder can kill you even if they don't know how to use it properly.

That's why I agree with the part I've bolded below:

Can the 2nd be done vs a knife? Sure. If you're good, and lucky.

I've faced a real knife twice. In one case, the person was very clearly in category one. In the other, I lost an eye.
Not exactly a great record.

That record still gives you significantly more real world experience than 99+% of the instructors out there teaching knife defense.

 

[Buka]

I used to teach some nifty cool knife defenses back in the day. And they worked pretty good with a rubber knife and a fellow dojo mate adhering to a script. I believe had anyone been forced to apply them in real life that someone would probably not make it out alive. It was poorly researched Martial Arts on my part.

Nowadays what seems to work the best (for us) is training in a knife fighting system before concentrating on any disarms or actual fighting against an edged weapon.

Knives scare the hell out of me.