Is kata and bunkai a waste of time?

So very true. I've had my share of teachers who had no idea what the kata was all about. "Its done this way, well........because thats the way its done." was an asnwer I heard way too many times. Fortunately, I found people who could explain and give more detail. :)

Indeed... there's a story that floats around the 'net that makes the same point:

A young Jewish mother is preparing a brisket one Friday for Shabbat dinner. Her daughter watches with interest as the mother slices off the ends of the brisket before placing it in the roasting pan. The young girl asks her mother why she does this.

The mother pauses for a moment and then says, "You know, I'm not sure. This is the way I always saw my mother make a brisket. Let's call Grandma and ask her."

So, she phones her mother and asks why she always sliced the ends off the brisket before roasting.

The Grandmother thinks for a moment and then says, "You know, I'm not sure why. This is the way I always saw MY mother make a brisket."

Now the two women are very curious, so they pay a visit to the great-grandmother in the nursing home.

"You know when we make a brisket," they explain, "we always slice off the ends before roasting. Why is that?"

"I don't know why YOU do it," says the old woman, "but I never had a pan that was large enough."

You have to be willing to find out why and what and how - some people have instructors who, like the mother in the above story, did it that way because that the way they learned it, by rote, without explanation... and only after someone went back to the beginning and asked why something was done a particular way did they know that no one knew. The mystique in many arts prevents students from asking that key question "why", and also allows instructors to fall back on "because I said so" and/or "because that's the way I was taught".

Patterns/forms/kata/whatever you want to call it is a toolbox - the techniques contained within the patterns are tools that can be used in a wide variety of ways. You have to be willing to experiment with them, to use them in step sparring and free sparring, and make them your own. Too often people stick with the few techniques they know well, and that they know work for them, and never go beyond that point... leaving them predictable as fighters, a mistake that can be costly in the ring and deadly in self-defense.

Here's an exercise that addresses that: take a movement from a pattern, any movement, one that you don't usually use, and use it in step sparring. Use it free sparring. Play with it, modify it, make it your own. If you can't do that, then patterns are useless to you except as conditioning. If you can do it, however, you have an endless supply of techniques that you can modify to meet your needs in any situation. But you have to work for it - you can't just do the patterns and expect that, magically, the applications will come.
 
Katas are patterns and choreographed.
Agreed.
The bunkai is choreographed.
Couldn't disagree more. It seems to me that those who find the most use from the study of Kata and its resulting Bunkai are the ones who see Bunkai as something that is to be discovered and experimented with. I wouldn't find much use for Kata myself if I thought the possible applications were limited and unrealistic.

_Don Flatt
 
I personally enjoy kata and bunkai. And while I agree they are both choreographed, for me they are great teaching tools...especially since I am relatively new (less than a year). My sensei is strict on kata, but does give leeway on bunkai so that we can adapt. This has help me some when we spar.
 
Couldn't disagree more. It seems to me that those who find the most use from the study of Kata and its resulting Bunkai are the ones who see Bunkai as something that is to be discovered and experimented with. I wouldn't find much use for Kata myself if I thought the possible applications were limited and unrealistic.

_Don Flatt

100% agreement. Real bunkai, the kind that kata were designed to be interpreted by, assumes a violent, hostile attacker whose moves cannot be predicted unless you force them, the way a forced mate in chess works: the opponent only has one option, and when you impose that on him, you go on to another forced-choice move, which leads inevitably to checkmate. The optimal bunkai, those explored by people like Iain Abernethy and Rick Clark (whose 75 Down Blocks is a revelation in this respect) are precisely those which reveal interpretations of kata moves corresponding to control over your attacker from the moment the attack is initiated, or possibly even just before. That's bunkai as people like Choki Motobu and other karate pioneers envisaged it.

I personally enjoy kata and bunkai. And while I agree they are both choreographed, for me they are great teaching tools...especially since I am relatively new (less than a year). My sensei is strict on kata, but does give leeway on bunkai so that we can adapt. This has help me some when we spar.

How could bunkai, which is the interpretation of kata movements as combat moves designed to damage an attacker severely enough to halt the attack, possibly be choreographed, i.e., designed in advance for enactment by two cooperative partners?? Sparring and bunkai have nothing to do with each other, just as kata has nothing to do with sport; its an instruction manual for self-defense. Only the 'standard', clichéd bunkai, which has your opponent conveniently standing there while you do some defensive move and then take your sweet time launching a counterstrike which he could easily move out of the way of—the sort of thing that Abernethy, Clark and similar karate analysts have brilliantly skewered in their books and DVDs—are choreographed. What is the point of bunkai which assumes that a violent attacker, intent on doing you harm, will cooperate with you? No bunkai that fails to assume an out-of-control, hostile assailant can possibly be worth anything, denying as it does the most basic fact of street violence: that you are dealing with someone who is trying very hard to hurt you. One of the criterion for the quality of a given bunkai analysis is precisely that it be effective regardless of what your assailant wants to do. Take a look at Abernethy's discussion of bunkai for the Pinan kata set here—the articles on the Pinan kata in particular—to see the difference between 'fantasy' bunkai, ritualized, choreographed and useless, on the one hand, and realistic bunkai on the other.
 
I personally enjoy kata and bunkai. And while I agree they are both choreographed, for me they are great teaching tools...especially since I am relatively new (less than a year). My sensei is strict on kata, but does give leeway on bunkai so that we can adapt. This has help me some when we spar.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough in my last post but I don't Choreograph Bunkai practice. I get the sense that many others here don't either. So you can say that your approach to Bunkai is choreographed but not mine. My approach is trial and error, brainstorm and experiment, play and vary, advance and retreat, right side-left side, slow and soft then hard and fast.

Maybe the first question we should ask next time the 'is kata useless?' question is asked should be, "How do you study the bunkai? Is it choreographed or spontaneous?"

Let me make an analogy using musical terms. Kata is like a musical scale or key. Bunkai is the ability to improvise using the scale (kata). Too many people are treating Kata like it's a classical piece of sheet music. All they do is read the music and try to play through it. In the end they are disappointed. When you play through the rudiment of a scale - it's very plain and boring. But a true muscian learns and understands the scale, assimilating it into their being and crafting the ability to improvise with it resulting in amazing music in 2 parts or possibly more parts when played over someone else's music.

_Don Flatt
 
Thanks to Exile and Kosho.

True kata is definitely choreographed...and bunkai is more experimental and improvisational than choreographed. Perhaps I did interpret incorrectly.

Thanks again guys.
 
Hello, Kata's? If it work so well? ...Why is it NOT done in any other sports or combat training.

Take one person who practice Kata for a year...and one person who boxes for year and put them in the ring? Who do you think will win?

At one time the world was thought to be flat by the greatest minds of there time.....It was also believe the SUN goes around the earth by great minds of that times...

Today many believe Kata's is MUST learn tool......WHY today many are starting believe this is NOT true? ....trust your own instincts of what works and NOT work.....

I too use to believe it was a must learn the Kata's to be good fighter? ...our Sensi's believe it and force us to believe it ...in time one learns the truth of their own training....

Fighting on the streets has NO patterns or forms...it is fast, chaos,NO rules,anything goes, weapons or anything around you can be use for defence and attacking tools....KATA"S do not teach you those things!

Learn bad habits? ....will get you kill or injury....who teaches biteing? ...We do and every thing else to survive...

One will fight the way they learn it! ....ever being in stress/adrenline situtions? ....and ...was able to be in control of one self (calm thinking)...NOT!

One day you will know the meaning? ...to learn to fight is to fight to learn!

MMA artist knows this very well and NEVER practice KATA'S (pre-set forms) like in karate!

The debate will go on for years....time will find the truths......MY opinion here.....Aloha

PS: When you practice Kata? ...and when you do the same thing against a REAL person? it will NEVER be the same thing..

Judo has a Kata for Black belt testing...but the TRUE LEARNING COMES FROM ACTUAL THROWS!!! ...not the kata's

Wrestling is the same...you learn from actual wrestling...

Same for boxing...and any fighting arts...TRUE learning comes from actual style of combat fighting...which can be done safely?
 
PS: When you practice Kata? ...and when you do the same thing against a REAL person? it will NEVER be the same thing..

Unless, of course, you practice the methods contained in the kata in realistic scenarios against a noncomplaint training partner who will hurt you if you don't counter him or her using... well, the optimal methods contained in the kata. As is advocated by every single advocate of kata as a guide to MA training. As you are overlooking, and have overlooked, in spite of the fact that it has been pointed out to you many times.

Judo has a Kata for Black belt testing...but the TRUE LEARNING COMES FROM ACTUAL THROWS!!! ...not the kata's

Yes, just like true learning of an instrumental piece of music comes from actually playing, and has nothing to do with the musical score for the piece... :rolleyes:


I'll just leave you with the following little tip from a gentleman named Geoff Thompson, in his book The Pavement Arena:

For the karateka wishing to pursue knowledge of self defense, kata are a treasure trove of hidden techniques that can be adapted directly to a street situation... All of the skills developed by kata are necessary when street defense is called for... if you want to see them as unrealistic and impractical you will. If however you are perceptive enough to see, you will find that they offer tremendous benefits to the street-oriented.​

(Chichester: Summersdale Publishers, 1993, p.62) And who is this chap presuming to offer this advice? Geoff Thompson is probably the most celebrated street combat expert in Britain—veteran of several hundred documented street and bar fights as bouncer, doorman and security executive for some of the roughest clubs in Coventry, whose nightclub scene is notoriously violent and dangerous—and one of the chief instructors of the British Combat Association, the premier MA association devoted to realistic training in close quarters combat, whose website makes clear just how much hard experience backs up GT's comments.

So before you make the kind of generalizations you do in your previous posts, and many similar ones, about what people can or cannot get out of kata, still_learning, you might consider the perspective on the matter of people, like Peter Consterdine, Geoff Thompson and any number of other BCA types, who have actually fought in brutal street combat for a good chunk of their professional lives, and compare their evidence base about the utility of kata as a training resource for realistic fighting techique with your own.
 
Hello, Kata's?
Hello? Have you read the last 3 pages?
If it work so well? ...Why is it NOT done in any other sports or combat training.
I posted on the first page about 2 of the UFC's top strikers who have trained Kata extensively.
Take one person who practice Kata for a year...and one person who boxes for year and put them in the ring? Who do you think will win?
The outcome of a fight is dependant on alot of factors, the biggest being the willpower and abilities of the additional fighters. What will the rules of the fight be? If Kickboxing or MMA perhaps the guy who did boxing exclusively would be unprepared to face being kicked by the guy who perfected his kicks practicing Kata. Are the fighters limited to only one training tool? If the Kata guy can only do Kata which tool can the Boxing guy use? Shadow boxing? Speed Bag? Heavy Bag? Focus Mitts? or Sparring?
Now, if the tools are not limited to one but all within the art, the fighters equal in ability and heart, the trainers being the best in their respective arts, and rules are set to favor neither style and we chose to match up a Karateka against a Boxer after only one year of training... I'd say it's very likely the Boxer would win because he is more familiar with all the weapons and tools of boxing (only 5 different strikes to learn) and will probably have more experience with competing but he will not be prepared to be kicked or even hit by fists hardened by Makiwara training. After 5 years it may be different - now the boxer must face a even more refined and crafty Karateka with a much bigger bag of tricks and hands hardened by 5 years of Makiwara training. Now the boxer's punches will be powerful but not as damaging as bare knuckles because he will want his hands at least wrapped to keep them from breaking.

What about the historic fight between Choki Motubu who practiced Naihanchi 500 times a day and the Russian Heavyweight Boxing Champ that led to the spread of Karate to Japan?
At one time the world was thought to be flat by the greatest minds of there time.....It was also believe the SUN goes around the earth by great minds of that times...
I'm not sure what you're talking about. This statement would make sense if you had proven that Kata training useless but you haven't.
Today many believe Kata's is MUST learn tool......WHY today many are starting believe this is NOT true? ....trust your own instincts of what works and NOT work.....

I too use to believe it was a must learn the Kata's to be good fighter? ...our Sensi's believe it and force us to believe it ...in time one learns the truth of their own training....
You are free to beleive what you want. So am I. We all are. Use whatever tools you see fit. Don't do Kata if you don't want to. You can't learn from what you don't respect.
Fighting on the streets has NO patterns or forms...it is fast, chaos,NO rules,anything goes, weapons or anything around you can be use for defence and attacking tools....KATA"S do not teach you those things!
I think Kata can teach you those things. Read the rest of the posts on this thread other threads.
Learn bad habits? ....will get you kill or injury....who teaches biteing? ...We do and every thing else to survive...

One will fight the way they learn it! ....ever being in stress/adrenline situtions? ....and ...was able to be in control of one self (calm thinking)...NOT!

One day you will know the meaning? ...to learn to fight is to fight to learn!
Practicing Kata in this manner has been discussed. Try reading some of the other posts on this thread.
MMA artist knows this very well and NEVER practice KATA'S (pre-set forms) like in karate!
Not true. There are those that do. Some a part of this forum. And even some of the top pro athletes.

_Don Flatt
 
A most interesting piece which while entertaining, was far from enlightening, given it's prevarication and falsity.

Hello, Kata's? If it work so well? ...Why is it NOT done in any other sports or combat training.

You are familiar with all other sports and combat training systems, styles and methodologies then?

Take one person who practice Kata for a year...and one person who boxes for year and put them in the ring? Who do you think will win?

Hand both a broom handle, or a folding chair, or a beer bottle. Now who would win?

At one time the world was thought to be flat by the greatest minds of there time.....It was also believe the SUN goes around the earth by great minds of that times...

Very true. Some great minds also today believe in aliens, gods and the lost civilization of Atlantis.

Today many believe Kata's is MUST learn tool......WHY today many are starting believe this is NOT true? ....trust your own instincts of what works and NOT work.....

A statement that says "I don't believe water is hot. I must ignore the experiences and notes of others and scald myself first".

I too use to believe it was a must learn the Kata's to be good fighter? ...our Sensi's believe it and force us to believe it ...in time one learns the truth of their own training....

I'm sorry, but could you repeat that in English please?

Fighting on the streets has NO patterns or forms...it is fast, chaos,NO rules,anything goes, weapons or anything around you can be use for defence and attacking tools....KATA"S do not teach you those things!

Interesting, considering that statement shows a complete lack of understanding of what kata's are for and what they actually do instruct you in.

Learn bad habits? ....will get you kill or injury....who teaches biteing? ...We do and every thing else to survive...

Kino Mutai?

One will fight the way they learn it! ....ever being in stress/adrenline situtions? ....and ...was able to be in control of one self (calm thinking)...NOT!

This is almost true. One will fight how they learned. If one trains to always pull their strike, they have a high probability of pulling the strike when it counts. That however indicates poor training.

One day you will know the meaning? ...to learn to fight is to fight to learn!

When one has learned it all, one will find they have learned nothing at all.

MMA artist knows this very well and NEVER practice KATA'S (pre-set forms) like in karate!

MMA people reinvent the wheel and rediscover fire quite often. I've yet to see any of them invent a better wheel or hotter fire, however.

The debate will go on for years....time will find the truths......MY opinion here.....Aloha

PS: When you practice Kata? ...and when you do the same thing against a REAL person? it will NEVER be the same thing..

Judo has a Kata for Black belt testing...but the TRUE LEARNING COMES FROM ACTUAL THROWS!!! ...not the kata's

Wrestling is the same...you learn from actual wrestling...

Same for boxing...and any fighting arts...TRUE learning comes from actual style of combat fighting...which can be done safely?

Belts are not an indication of quality, nor of excellence of fighter. They indicate a means of tracking student progress, nothing more. Kata's are a training tool, much like a bag, or gloves, or padded weapon. Properly used, it will train you. Improperly used, it will hurt, hinder and perhaps even kill you. True learning comes from an open mind, one that doesn't limit the sources of knowledge to just the tactile original experiences of the uneducated.
 
Hello, Kata's? If it work so well? ...Why is it NOT done in any other sports or combat training.

Take one person who practice Kata for a year...and one person who boxes for year and put them in the ring? Who do you think will win?

At one time the world was thought to be flat by the greatest minds of there time.....It was also believe the SUN goes around the earth by great minds of that times...

Today many believe Kata's is MUST learn tool......WHY today many are starting believe this is NOT true? ....trust your own instincts of what works and NOT work.....

I too use to believe it was a must learn the Kata's to be good fighter? ...our Sensi's believe it and force us to believe it ...in time one learns the truth of their own training....

Fighting on the streets has NO patterns or forms...it is fast, chaos,NO rules,anything goes, weapons or anything around you can be use for defence and attacking tools....KATA"S do not teach you those things!

Learn bad habits? ....will get you kill or injury....who teaches biteing? ...We do and every thing else to survive...

One will fight the way they learn it! ....ever being in stress/adrenline situtions? ....and ...was able to be in control of one self (calm thinking)...NOT!

One day you will know the meaning? ...to learn to fight is to fight to learn!

MMA artist knows this very well and NEVER practice KATA'S (pre-set forms) like in karate!

The debate will go on for years....time will find the truths......MY opinion here.....Aloha

PS: When you practice Kata? ...and when you do the same thing against a REAL person? it will NEVER be the same thing..

Judo has a Kata for Black belt testing...but the TRUE LEARNING COMES FROM ACTUAL THROWS!!! ...not the kata's

Wrestling is the same...you learn from actual wrestling...

Same for boxing...and any fighting arts...TRUE learning comes from actual style of combat fighting...which can be done safely?
The ring and actual combat are two different things. Of course, if you train in a ring for a year you are going to do better in the ring. And its OK to break the Kata down and work the excercises with a partner or partners. That is why they invented the dern thing.
Sean
 
Hello, Thank-you for the replies.......to agree or disagree?

TO prove that kata does work or is important part of martial arts? ....is yet to be proven to be effective in REAL fighting?

Science has not proven effects of Kata training....?

Just because a person with lots of skills and had kata training? ...was it the kata's the made his skill better or was it the other training aids?

How much of it was Kata? ...how much was it the the other...

Self training is important....does it have to be a Kata (set pre-forms) because combintions is NOT call Kata's, just combintions,

The meaning of Kata is pre-set forms with specfic movements and patterns.

Some may say combintion training is the same as Kata's.....then if it is? ...everything would be called a Kata? is there a difference in meaning?

We believe yes....there is difference in the meaning of Kata's from everything else....

Is it a good training tool? ...yes...is it as effective on the streets for real fighting? ....debatable

Real contact training...will always be better....

I know I cannot effective win the debate...because I myself..cannot really explain it all...just trusting my instincts and my own belief of what we found to be the truth for us....

It does snow in Hawaii.....Aloha,

PS: NO knows what is the best martial arts to learn? ....yet each believes his will work? ....VERBAL martial works too? ...not all the time...

Kata's will always be? Debatable....? that is why is always brought up time to time on every martial art sites.....

Thank-you guys....!
 
Hello, I would like to be proven wrong! Just prove it? with facts and studies, not hear says....with data's. Actual testing Kata's effectiveness!

Make us NON-believer's, believers of Kata training!

You will have to know the defination of what a kata is first!

Aloha,
 
Hello, Kata's? If it work so well? ...Why is it NOT done in any other sports or combat training.

Haven't we been down this road before in other threads?? Let me ask you this...MMA fighters don't train with blades, yet you see thousands of people flocking to MMA gyms.

Take one person who practice Kata for a year...and one person who boxes for year and put them in the ring? Who do you think will win?

I don't know why I'm replying, but I may as well continue. As I've said a number of times in the past, its all how the person trains and applies the kata. Kata is not done during a fight like its done during training. You need to extract the moves you intend on using at the time. Hmm...and just this past Thursday during class, we took the first few moves of a kata, and while making some slight modifications, but still keeping with the general idea of the kata, came up with a number of various applications. But, if that is something that you dont do, then you will not get much out of it, nor will you really be any good at it. If someone does it on a regular basis, they'll stand a much better chance.


Today many believe Kata's is MUST learn tool......WHY today many are starting believe this is NOT true? ....trust your own instincts of what works and NOT work.....

As I've said a number of times before, but was obviously missed, kata is just one part of the puzzle. You still need to do other things as well.

I too use to believe it was a must learn the Kata's to be good fighter? ...our Sensi's believe it and force us to believe it ...in time one learns the truth of their own training....

Of course, part of understanding kata, is being able to have a teacher who a) understands it himself, and b) is able to teach it properly.

Fighting on the streets has NO patterns or forms...it is fast, chaos,NO rules,anything goes, weapons or anything around you can be use for defence and attacking tools....KATA"S do not teach you those things!

This is where you are wrong. You should be able to pull out any part of a kata, that is applicable to what is presented to you at the time. So yes, kata does teach those things to you!

Learn bad habits? ....will get you kill or injury....who teaches biteing? ...We do and every thing else to survive...

One will fight the way they learn it! ....ever being in stress/adrenline situtions? ....and ...was able to be in control of one self (calm thinking)...NOT!

One day you will know the meaning? ...to learn to fight is to fight to learn!

MMA artist knows this very well and NEVER practice KATA'S (pre-set forms) like in karate!

The debate will go on for years....time will find the truths......MY opinion here.....Aloha

PS: When you practice Kata? ...and when you do the same thing against a REAL person? it will NEVER be the same thing..

Judo has a Kata for Black belt testing...but the TRUE LEARNING COMES FROM ACTUAL THROWS!!! ...not the kata's

Wrestling is the same...you learn from actual wrestling...

Same for boxing...and any fighting arts...TRUE learning comes from actual style of combat fighting...which can be done safely?

The problem is, is that you come on here, and preach the same thing, only to be proven wrong time and time again. We've offered suggestions to help you learn and understand the kata, yet you fail to do it. Part of learning, is wanting to accept what is being taught.

Mike
 
Hello, I would like to be proven wrong! Just prove it? with facts and studies, not hear says....with data's. Actual testing Kata's effectiveness!

Make us NON-believer's, believers of Kata training!

You will have to know the defination of what a kata is first!

Aloha,

If you read thru these very posts, people are proving you wrong. It seems apparent to me at least, that you are in this mindset, that you think that in order to use kata, it must be done EXACTLY the way its taught. That is not the case at all. Once again, just like with your other empty hand SD techs., you use from the kata, what is applicable at the time.
 
Hello, I would like to be proven wrong! Just prove it? with facts and studies, not hear says....with data's. Actual testing Kata's effectiveness!

Make us NON-believer's, believers of Kata training!

You will have to know the defination of what a kata is first!

Aloha,
Deja vu...

I've seen this before
...

Over and over again

Deja vu...

Oh well... let's try it again.

Kata and traditional martial arts training are often (but neither exclusively nor automatically) expressly designed and intended to convey tools for handling real world violence. But your training must be focused on preparing for those realities, or you're simply moving your arms and legs around.

Have we :banghead:, :hb: and :deadhorse enough?
 
An important benefit of forms practice:
Have you ever seen an MMA fighter doing his thing at the age of 50 or beyond? It might be possible, but it can't happen very often.
There are, however, countless MA students practicing forms at 50, 60, and beyond. You won't be getting into a ring at age 60, but you can still do forms.
 
Kata and traditional martial arts training are often (but neither exclusively nor automatically) expressly designed and intended to convey tools for handling real world violence. But your training must be focused on preparing for those realities, or you're simply moving your arms and legs around.
Why couldn't I have said it like that? :D Must be the gazillion reports you've had to do?

Have we :banghead:, :hb: and :deadhorse enough?
I have. Let's call it a day. ;)
 
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