Is it OK to tase a 9 yr. old?

Discussion in 'General Weapons Discussion' started by OULobo, Jun 1, 2004.

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  1. Tgace

    Tgace Grandmaster

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    One word.....ouch!

    Officer Receives a Jolting Lesson; A Wet Taser Packs a Punch, He Learns


    [size=-1]By Christine Vendel, The Kansas City Star[/size]

    A Kansas City police officer shockingly discovered recently that wearing a Taser in a heavy rainstorm could result in his being, well, shocked.

    The officer directed traffic in a thunderstorm about 1:15 a.m. last Saturday after a tree fell across a street at 44th Street and Park Avenue. He stood outside in the pouring rain for an extended period before getting back into his patrol car.

    That's when he heard a crackling noise and smelled something burning. He deduced that the noise and odor had come from his Taser, an electrified weapon capable of issuing a 50,000-volt shock. As he began pulling the Taser from the holster strapped to his left thigh, the weapon fired a cartridge into the bottom of the holster.

    The officer did not receive the full shock, but rather a residual shock, since the cartridge remained in the holster and did not penetrate the officer's skin.

    "He got a shock, but it didn't immobilize him," said Sgt. Mark Hatcher, supply section supervisor.

    Hatcher contacted Taser International to report the problem. Company officials told him they had not heard of a similar problem with the X26 model that Kansas City officers use. Hatcher said officials told him the weapon is not intended for use in heavy moisture.

    "They told me anytime heavy water penetrates the battery cover, there could be an electrical short, which could cause the weapon to discharge on its own," Hatcher said.

    Hatcher said he did not think the weapon was flawed. He said making the weapon waterproof would probably make it too expensive. Hatcher issued a memo to department members. He told officers to wear raincoats in inclement weather to keep the Tasers dry.
     
  2. Bob Hubbard

    Bob Hubbard Retired

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    US cops taser battling granny
    By John Oates
    Published Thursday 21st October 2004 11:54 GMT
    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/10/21/granny_spark_out/

    A South Carolina police officer is under investigation for zapping a 75-year-old granny with a Taser. The stun gun can fire its wire-trailing darts into anyone within 20 feet and delivers an electric shock of up to 50,000 volts to the miscreant.

    The police officer, a mere stripling of 35, was called to a nursing home where the woman was visiting a friend. She refused to leave because staff would not tell her where her friend was. So the police officer, Hattie Macon, took her down with a quick jolt of juice.

    The zapped OAP, Margaret Kembrell, told AP she thought her end had come: "I thought I was dying, I could hear myself screaming...I didn't want to hurt her and I can't believe she would hurt me." Kembrell was handcuffed, arrested and charged with trespass and resisting arrest.

    But the local police chief defended his officer's actions saying she had acted properly. Officer Macon says she only resorted to the Taser when the fiesty old-timer tried to thump her - a charge Kembrell denies.

    Showing remarkable restraint, Margaret's son Jack Kembrell said: "I really don't understand why a police officer, a trained police officer, would have to use such force on a 75-year-old woman. If it was a 75-year-old man, I could maybe see it. But a 75-year-old woman? What could she do?"

    In related news, a Chicago wedding came to a shocking end last month when police tasered both the pregnant bride and her father. Taser International expects sales to leap 175 per cent for 2004 compared with the year before. ®
     
  3. GAB

    GAB 3rd Black Belt

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    Hi Kaith, Female officer, (hattie) Had to have been there to judge it.

    Regards, Gary
     
  4. loki09789

    loki09789 Senior Master

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    Round II....LET'S GET READY TO SQUAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABLE!
    Sorry, I don't have any cool lazer lights or smoke; nor do I have the cool music as the posts hit either....

    Waiting for the armchairing to begin....:)
     
  5. GAB

    GAB 3rd Black Belt

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    Hi Paul,

    I have been checking back, I guess we put the boots to this thread, the 1-2 punch, first me then you.

    Did I tell you I was concerned with my security, mental that is...LOL

    I have been waiting patiently with baited finger tips, Nada, zip. What's happening, Que pasa or is it Paso???

    Regards, Gary
     
  6. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons A Student of Martial Arts

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    So it ok for Women to break the law. It is ok for women to cause a disturbance. It is ok for women to assault an officer, yet none of these are allowe dif you are male.

    Gee, I thought that if the officer deemed threat, they were allowed to act within policies and procedures of the local precinct. I guess if you are female you can anything you want.

    :idunno:
     
  7. shesulsa

    shesulsa Columbia Martial Arts Academy

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    Actually, Mr. Parsons, it's no more okay for a woman to break the law than a man. But exactly how much of a threat do you really think this little old lady was?? Isn't there a little room for decorum here? Is all black and white?
     
  8. GAB

    GAB 3rd Black Belt

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    Hi, Actually it was a very humane way of handling it, at this women's age a tussle could have left her with a serious injury. The officer and the chief thought it was within the Dept's policy.

    All ended well, the disturber was taken care of, the LEO went home that night to her family, The older women had a few minutes of discomfort rather than broken bones or some other more serious injury.

    Actually men have been slapped for years and years by women and are not supposed to retaliate. I am glad it was a female officer and not a male officer who did it.

    Regards, Gary
     
  9. shesulsa

    shesulsa Columbia Martial Arts Academy

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    Jeez - I'm sorry - I didn't know this was a man vs woman thread - I thought this was about the appropriate situations where the use of tasers is warranted or not warranted.

    To stay on topic, I just can't see myself tasing an old lady unless she's weilding a weapon and she'd better be a serious threat. Any LEO who can't handle the public in an appropriate fashion just shouldn't be on the force.

    Do you want your mother tased? Please.
     
  10. GAB

    GAB 3rd Black Belt

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    Hi, it was a trained LEO and a Chief of Police working inside of Department policy. Now you are setting this up as a man vs women thing, no one else.

    It was women on women, and like I said, otherwise it would have been a much bigger deal.

    Would I want my mother tased? No, but if a trained police officer and the Dept stands behind it, then that is one of the reasons, I am sure they brought in the taser, to handle these iffy situations. More humane, less damage done to an old, already inflamed women.

    Better then the shooting that happened in the 70's in Los Angeles, when 2 trained police officers shot and killed a women for throwing a knife at them.

    I would not think of judging them either unless I was there, neither should you on this one...IMO...

    Regards, Gary
     
  11. shesulsa

    shesulsa Columbia Martial Arts Academy

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    ... also ...

    So your statement here is false:

    Could you please quote me on my comments towards male vs female force on this thread as it applies to your accusation? My only reference to this was that "it is no more okay for a woman to break the law than a man." This statement is in support of the equality of threat between the genders and does not involve polarity at all.
     
  12. Doc

    Doc Senior Master

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    Eula Love didn't have the option of a taser. Whatheproblemis?
     
  13. loki09789

    loki09789 Senior Master

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    No, I wouldn't want to see my mother tazed. But I also wouldn't want her man handled, armbarred, goosenecked...considering the fragility of her bone structure and weaker muscle tonallity because of age.

    The thing that I don't understand, that this and the other issue brings up, is why technology is such a bad thing to use in LEO work when "economy of motion" is a common concept to martial artists. Within a tactical view, this was an economical use of force: LEO got the job done, woman wasn't hurt, everybody went home. NOW, if the LEO use the tazer in a torturous way (comments like "you want it again old bitty?" or excessively long doses of shock) I would have a problem with this too.

    "Economy of motion" is a sound tactical concept. It was applied in this moment and because of it, the officer and the old woman were not put into a 'hands on' situation and went to their respective homes. Done deal.

    The other thing to remember (and any current/retired/former LEO can clarify/correct as needed) that LEO defensive tactics/'hands on' training usually isn't recertified every year through the departments NOR is the empty hand stuff regularly on the in service training schedule. That is something that begins and ends at academies on the average.

    So, would you rather have this female officer (who probably wouldn't have the strength to safely man handle this old woman) who has not had regular and consistent 'hands on' type training trying to manipulate your mother over using a less than lethal tool that she/any LEO is required to recert on regularly (like firearms, spray, baton....) on the average. If you are more confident in the use of a tool and can control the dosage of force more affectively with that tool, I say that is the tool to pick.

    How's that for armchairing?
     
  14. shesulsa

    shesulsa Columbia Martial Arts Academy

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    I'd like to know exactly how she came at the LEO - did she swing her purse at her? <can the officer not move out of the way?> Did she try to kick her? <can she not move out of the way?> Did she try to smack her repeatedly? <can she not move out of the way?>

    Or did granny pull a knitting needle? <which I would agree to taser use for> Did she pull a firearm? <I think we would be calling this the 'LEO shoots and kills granny' thread>

    This officer probably doesn't only need more hand-to-hand training - she needs better judgement skills to boot.

    The last time my mommy tried to smack me, I just grabbed her arms and wrapped her up in a rear bear hug, arms crossed in front of her. I was 16 and had no training. What's wrong with that?

    The guys who whip out the taser just because regulation sez they can frighten me more than a little.
     
  15. loki09789

    loki09789 Senior Master

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    I guess it is the nature of these discussions, but I am reading a lot of 'don't knows' but it wraps up with a judgements and opinions....

    Either they are professionals, entrusted and evaluated by superiors (who will NOT cover for a bad cop but hold them accountable because no one wants a bad cop ruining the rep of the rest NOR does the Chief want to be accused of not taking action ie losing his job).

    I don't know enough about the situation to say yes or know on judgement and as I said with the last one. It is ALWAYS easier to come up with the perfect plan from the comfortable distance of time and hindsight.

    We don't know whether she is a 'hot button' cop who 'whips out' the tazer at the drop of a pin. We don't know if she herself is poorly trained in defensive tactics. Those comments were general trend observations from me, not defenses of her individually.

    If I am having a bad day and decide to take it out on my fellow man, I would rather get tazered by a cop than beat down with the baton/hands on any day. When I have regained my senses, faced the music and am back on track I won't have a limp, concussion because we fell (unintentionally) during the struggle and I hit my head on a sharp corner, or be charged with any injury the cop got during the struggle that MY ACTIONS made it necessary for him/her to be called.
     
  16. raedyn

    raedyn Guest

    I think you have a good point about the 'economy of motion' bit. It makes sense. The tazering probably is less harmful than any hand-to-hand tussling.

    But. I have a serious issue with yr 'probably wouldn't have the strength' comment. Based upon what? I think you're making quite a leap there. You don't know the officer OR the lady involved, so why are you assuming the officer couldn't handle this old lady? Is it because the officer in this instance is a woman? I think perhaps you should reconsider this assumption.

    I agree that LEO's don't get enough self-defence training through their work, but many take responsibilty for this themselves - see numerous examples on this board. There will be some that are quite competent and confident handling themselves in a confrontation, and some that are not.
     
  17. GAB

    GAB 3rd Black Belt

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    Could you clairify Whatheproblemis= What the problem is? or?

    Doc, Yes that is one of the actual officer involved shootings that had some weight to the Department going to the taser years later.

    I worked with one of the officers, or I should say was in the acadamy with him. He was one I trained with on a daily basis, we were paired up because of size and ability.

    He did about 30 years and retired, was in quite a few shootings in his career, the other officer was so distraught he pensioned off on a distress type IOD pension a while later...

    I was very much involved with participating in arm chairing these events while working the admin part of deployment of man power and tactics, at Metro between back surgeries...We were at Georgia street then. 114 moved to Parker center in 77.

    I was forced to retire in 78. They did not change their policies until 5 years later and when I tried to get back on, they said I was not eligible because I had been off one month longer. Now they are hiring back, old men are on the job working inside. Depends on the new policies...

    I would have been allowed, if I had not been off the job for so long... Rules and laws, and policy, funny how they change people's life in a heart beat.

    The Feds and money (Cities and Counties and States) just have to know how to work the system...Follow the deepest pocket.

    Regards, Gary
     
  18. loki09789

    loki09789 Senior Master

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    Yup I am making an assumption. I am assuming that if you are going to try to subdue someone with techniques that are limited because you are trying not to harm the person that it takes a greater proportion of raw power to do that than if you are unrestricted and can simply pound them with impact strikes and such.

    This officer, if she had tried to grapple/control this old woman under the personal/departmental restriction of not doing lethal damage or causing undue physical damage would need a pretty solid strength base in order to muscle/pull/push this old woman in a way that 1.Got her under control and 2.Didn't hurt her unnecessarily in the process. I say she would not have the level of strength is an assumption based on the fact that women are not built as densely packed with upper body muscle as a man is - basic gender development.

    Consider that goal/limitation of force application with the biological consideration of upper body strength to weight ratio and the assumption/general observation that most departments don't devote much repetitive/quality time to defensive tactics training (which means she would be recruiting muscle power more likely than applying techinque with control and fluidity) and you see where I am coming from.

    It is an assumption. But one that I deduce from my understanding of the goals/limitations of the force she would need to use, her biological make up and her probable lack of expertise in physical technique NOT a gender slam in any way.
     
  19. Flatlander

    Flatlander Grandmaster

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    Likely, this was not intended as a gender slam. However, you are making a logical fallacy. You cannot "deduce" based on her "bilogical makeup" when that is information that you don't have. Or do you? Do we have stats on the physical makeup of the two women involved?

    Irrespective of this, I see where you're going with it, and it makes sense. My problem is with the open question as to the safety of these devices. Given the uncertainty surrounding their safety, and the "assumption" that people this age are likely more susceptible to whatever harmful effects a jolt of electricity flying throught their bodies might pose, perhaps this LEO, sufficiently trained to be on the street, ought to have either tried something else, or called for backup.

    This was about removing an old lady from the premises when she didn't want to go. There was no immediate threat of harm to anyone. The officer on scene was the most dangerous person involved.

    Where we see a difference between this instance and the 9 year old from the original discussion, is that the 9 year old posed a risk to herself. she was being violent, and required restraint. This old lady just wouldn't leave. Backup would have been a better solution.
     
  20. shesulsa

    shesulsa Columbia Martial Arts Academy

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    If I at 16 and female (105 pounds sopping wet) could restrain my deranged mother, aged 54 (215 pounds) at the time, I have little doubt an adult female LEO would have much trouble using her.... *ahem* inferior biological structure :ticked: to contain and control this 75 year old woman without the use of taser. I agree with Dan - backup was a viable alternative.

    What about words??? Has the art of persuasive communication died such a horrible death amongst trigger-happy LEOs? I thought I left that behind when I left L.A. but it seems it is a supported and unfortunately growing social phenomenon.

    I have several swords and an Irish temper. One of the five rules of conduct in my martial art is to never kil without cause. Is that cause up to me to define? Yewbetcha - hence all the other rules and virtues to guide my decision making process.

    So - someone takes the life of or molests my daughter. Shall I behead the villain? Cut off his hands and pecker? Don't I have cause?

    Just because you CAN do something isn't enough reason TO do it. This is just plain common sense.

    Now - PLEASE do not continue to insult the LEO you are defending, the women on this board, and women all around the world who have successfully fought for themselves by engaging your sexist comments further.

    SS123
     
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