Is EPKA Outdated?

[Atlanta-Kenpo]

Well Doc compared to me he is! hahaha
I get your point.
HAve you seen this materlia that I speak of?

 

[HKphooey]

Jeff Speakman, strictly speaking is not a Kenpo Senior.

But he was considered a protégé. I never had the pleasure to meet the man, but from the research I have done, GM Parker thought very highly of his skills and his personality.

Doc, I know you have met and trained him and he spoke highly of you in interviews. Do you still have any interaction with Mr. Speakman?

 

[Atlanta-Kenpo]

I heard that he was learning SL4 from you Doc! IF that is trure have you or did Mr Parker ever share SL4 with any of the other seniors? Or maybe a better way of saying it would be. Is there anyone else out there doing anything that is close to what you are doing?

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

The sprawl is already there in several places. and several variations such as double underhook, double overhook, over-and-under, the whizzer, etc.

I've never seen a true wrestling sprawl in kenpo. You could make the argument that the motion of a forward fall if applied to a takedown would be a sprawl. That's about the only application of a true spawl that I can see in Kenpo.

I'll have to agree to disagree on this one. (I'm allowed one disagreement right Doc? ). You will never see a true "wrestling" sprawl in Kenpo because Kenpo's very intention is to not wrestle. However, if one learns wrestling or an any grappling art as a means of defense/fighting and not just a sport one should be taught that a sprawl is actually a two part process (or it may just be the way it was taught in the "street" Wrestling and Ju Jitsu I'm versed in).

Section 1. -- Kill the shoot/clinch
Section 2. -- Drive the opponent to the ground in a disadvantaged postion in preparation for pinning/submission.

Kenpo does not do the second section where the hip and body weight is used to drive the opponent downward because this changes things into a grappling match which is detrimental to kenpo's core philosophy of remaining standing and free to disengage at will.

The first section is adressed often and has it's own sub heading such as 1) prevent opponent's control of the hips, 2) move hips away from opponent, 3) Move legs away from opponent, 4) etc. these steps are the initial phases of the sprawl and if you're a fan of the MMA fights you'll see fighters sprawling without going all the way to the ground all of the time (Watch Quinton Jackson versus Kevin Randleman, Vanderlei Silva versus any grappler, Chuck Liddell versus grappler for examples).

People seem to think that the sprawl is automatically "hips back and down, kick the feet back, get your underhooks in and drive the guy to the mat". This only applies if you WANT to go to the mat with him or you're LATE in reacting to the shoot.

SOME Techniques where Kenpo executes section 1 of "The Spwawl" and teaches the concepts involved in all sprawls be they "true wrestling sprawls" or not...

1) Thrusting Prongs, also look at the extension

2) Broken Ram (a.k.a. the whizzer, but we remain standing instead of driving his head to the mat and pancaking him)

3) Intercepting the Ram

4) Tripping Arrow

5) Striking Serpernt's Head

6) Locked Wing

7) Hooking Wings (graft to other moves after first movement)

8) Gripping Talon extension

9) Obscure Claws

10) Securing the Storm

11) etc.

Just because is hasn't been taught to you does not mean it isn't there or being taught elsewhere. But my view may be a bit biased having been exposed to Ju Jitsu/wrestling prior to kenpo so I see Ju Jitsu and Wrestling moves and concepts in places others usually do not...

 

[Doc]

I'll have to agree to disagree on this one. (I'm allowed one disagreement right Doc? ). You will never see a true "wrestling" sprawl in Kenpo because Kenpo's very intention is to not wrestle. However, if one learns wrestling or an any grappling art as a means of defense/fighting and not just a sport one should be taught that a sprawl is actually a two part process (or it may just be the way it was taught in the "street" Wrestling and Ju Jitsu I'm versed in).

Section 1. -- Kill the shoot/clinch
Section 2. -- Drive the opponent to the ground in a disadvantaged postion in preparation for pinning/submission.

Kenpo does not do the second section where the hip and body weight is used to drive the opponent downward because this changes things into a grappling match which is detrimental to kenpo's core philosophy of remaining standing and free to disengage at will.

The first section is adressed often and has it's own sub heading such as 1) prevent opponent's control of the hips, 2) move hips away from opponent, 3) Move legs away from opponent, 4) etc. these steps are the initial phases of the sprawl and if you're a fan of the MMA fights you'll see fighters sprawling without going all the way to the ground all of the time (Watch Quinton Jackson versus Kevin Randleman, Vanderlei Silva versus any grappler, Chuck Liddell versus grappler for examples).

People seem to think that the sprawl is automatically "hips back and down, kick the feet back, get your underhooks in and drive the guy to the mat". This only applies if you WANT to go to the mat with him or you're LATE in reacting to the shoot.

SOME Techniques where Kenpo executes section 1 of "The Spwawl" and teaches the concepts involved in all sprawls be they "true wrestling sprawls" or not...

1) Thrusting Prongs, also look at the extension

2) Broken Ram (a.k.a. the whizzer, but we remain standing instead of driving his head to the mat and pancaking him)

3) Intercepting the Ram

4) Tripping Arrow

5) Striking Serpernt's Head

6) Locked Wing

7) Hooking Wings (graft to other moves after first movement)

8) Gripping Talon extension

9) Obscure Claws

10) Securing the Storm

11) etc.

Just because is hasn't been taught to you does not mean it isn't there or being taught elsewhere. But my view may be a bit biased having been exposed to Ju Jitsu/wrestling prior to kenpo so I see Ju Jitsu and Wrestling moves and concepts in places others usually do not...

Well sir, Ed Parker was a black belt in 'karate,' Judo, jiujitsu, and Kenpo. Moreover the 'Kenpo' of Hawaii was as much if not more 'grappling' influnced by the Japanese and Henry Okazaki's Dan Zan Ryu Jiu-jitsu, of whom Chow was also a student. So maybe your eyes are better than most. But what actually made it into the commercial system was dependent upon instructors having good eyes and their previous skill and knowledge before coming to 'kenpo.' This fact alone requires people cannot make assumptions of what, or how anything is done outside of their own experience or influence. Much of Parker's experience was by design either removed from or omitted from commercial kenpo karate.

 

[Atlanta-Kenpo]

Doc,
There you go again with all that secret stuff!! I think I will be out your way in October so hopefully we can sit down for a few and meet and greet.

 

[Doc]

Doc,
There you go again with all that secret stuff!! I think I will be out your way in October so hopefully we can sit down for a few and meet and greet.

I truly look forward to it.

 

[KenpoRonin]

....Makes ya wonder how people can have faith in "modern" medicine and denounce "arcane" eastern medicine yet train in "modern" martial arts that are derived from "arcane" eastern fighting methods.....Not a slam, just food for thought.

That is a rather lame arguement. First Both modern medicine and modern martial arts have evolved from arcane practices and second he practices both. The problem with most martial artist is they believe the hocus pocus of surreal magic, Like ninjas walking on water and death touches. Yet with modern technology we are quickly debunking all these myths. Now I am not saying that there are not practical applications for oriantal meds. I often use accu - pressure to fix sore muscles. I think the point Kenpohack was trying to say is that it takes to long to learn and practice for modern martial artists who do it as a Hobby.

 

[KenpoRonin]

I'll have to agree to disagree on this one. (I'm allowed one disagreement right Doc? ). You will never see a true "wrestling" sprawl in Kenpo because Kenpo's very intention is to not wrestle. However, if one learns wrestling or an any grappling art as a means of defense/fighting and not just a sport one should be taught that a sprawl is actually a two part process (or it may just be the way it was taught in the "street" Wrestling and Ju Jitsu I'm versed in).

Section 1. -- Kill the shoot/clinch
Section 2. -- Drive the opponent to the ground in a disadvantaged postion in preparation for pinning/submission.

Kenpo does not do the second section where the hip and body weight is used to drive the opponent downward because this changes things into a grappling match which is detrimental to kenpo's core philosophy of remaining standing and free to disengage at will.

The first section is adressed often and has it's own sub heading such as 1) prevent opponent's control of the hips, 2) move hips away from opponent, 3) Move legs away from opponent, 4) etc. these steps are the initial phases of the sprawl and if you're a fan of the MMA fights you'll see fighters sprawling without going all the way to the ground all of the time (Watch Quinton Jackson versus Kevin Randleman, Vanderlei Silva versus any grappler, Chuck Liddell versus grappler for examples).

People seem to think that the sprawl is automatically "hips back and down, kick the feet back, get your underhooks in and drive the guy to the mat". This only applies if you WANT to go to the mat with him or you're LATE in reacting to the shoot.

SOME Techniques where Kenpo executes section 1 of "The Spwawl" and teaches the concepts involved in all sprawls be they "true wrestling sprawls" or not...

1) Thrusting Prongs, also look at the extension

2) Broken Ram (a.k.a. the whizzer, but we remain standing instead of driving his head to the mat and pancaking him)

3) Intercepting the Ram

4) Tripping Arrow

5) Striking Serpernt's Head

6) Locked Wing

7) Hooking Wings (graft to other moves after first movement)

8) Gripping Talon extension

9) Obscure Claws

10) Securing the Storm

11) etc.

Just because is hasn't been taught to you does not mean it isn't there or being taught elsewhere. But my view may be a bit biased having been exposed to Ju Jitsu/wrestling prior to kenpo so I see Ju Jitsu and Wrestling moves and concepts in places others usually do not...

As someone who has spent some time in BJJ and having a student who has done it for years, I would have to say that while I see why you are saying that there is sprawling in the system, I still think you are reaching. A true sprawl moves the hips and legs not just one or the other or one of each. These techniques are against clinches, with the exception of the Rams, and all of those are above the waist attacks. A good take down artist will shoot at or below the knee.

 

[MattJ]

I have to agree with KenpoRonin. KJ3's argument seems like another attempt to reverse-engineer a concept or technique into something that it is not. I really find no shame in admitting that AKK is light on ground-fighting. It is what it is. That is why I cross-train.