Is anyone out there STILL a Republican?

[Kane]

The point was that dictatorships are more efficient forms of government. Efficient doesn't mean good, better or superior. Things done faster aren't always done well.

That is beside the point. What is the whole point in even mentioning what he said? Maybe michaeledward was joking around, because it sounds to me as if he wanted Saddam in power even today. Judging by many of his previous posts like in his "Saddam would still be in power" he acted as if he wants such filth still in power.

 

[Marginal]

That is beside the point.

No, that was the whole point.

What is the whole point in even mentioning what he said? Maybe michaeledward was joking around, because it sounds to me as if he wanted Saddam in power even today.

He ironically offered a comparative model of efficiency vs the claim that the UN was inefficient. Slide around on the continum, and you'll see that dictatorships are very efficient when it comes to making the dictator's will happen. Hitler's government was more efficient when compared to a democracy. He wanted something done, and that was it. Doesn't mean that such efficiency is desireable. With no checks or balances, any idea no matter how poor can be implimented right away.

 

[bustr]

http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article_7779.shtml

 

[Kane]

No, that was the whole point.



He ironically offered a comparative model of efficiency vs the claim that the UN was inefficient. Slide around on the continum, and you'll see that dictatorships are very efficient when it comes to making the dictator's will happen. Hitler's government was more efficient when compared to a democracy. He wanted something done, and that was it. Doesn't mean that such efficiency is desireable. With no checks or balances, any idea no matter how poor can be implimented right away.

Heh heh, my mistake. Although it is hard to tell when someone like michealedward is being sarcastic or ironic .

 

[sgtmac_46]

Yes ... Let's hear it for the efficiency of, oh, say .. Saddam Hussein's government. Iraq under Hussein was incredibly efficient. Outside of the ability to win Olympic medals, basically, anything he wanted, he got.

Of course ... I'ld be willing to bet that you are not a fan of efficiency that much, right?

Am I sensing a logical fallace developing, hmmm, an appeal to emotion? Almost an 'Reductio ad Saddamum'?

What you might be missing, michael, is that it doesn't have to be a totalitarian dictatorship, to be efficient. There is a good middle ground between asininely inefficient and totalitarian.

 

[michaeledward]

Am I sensing a logical fallace developing, hmmm, an appeal to emotion? Almost an 'Reductio ad Saddamum'?

What you might be missing, michael, is that it doesn't have to be a totalitarian dictatorship, to be efficient. There is a good middle ground between asininely inefficient and totalitarian.

Actually, I would posit that there are built in 'inefficiencies' in the United States Government, by design.

However, if we wish to talk of 'appeals to emotion', I would point out the adverb 'asininely'. What does that word choice appeal to?

 

[sgtmac_46]

Actually, I would posit that there are built in 'inefficiencies' in the United States Government, by design.

However, if we wish to talk of 'appeals to emotion', I would point out the adverb 'asininely'. What does that word choice appeal to?

It certainly doesn't conjure up connotations of torture, rape, and genocide to link to the opposing argument.

 

[michaeledward]

For those who continue to wrap themselves in the tattered cloak of the 4th Amendment, This just in from the New York Times.

The FBI is spying on PETA, Greenpeace, and the Catholic Workers league.

All authorized by John Ashcroft, Attorney General for President Bush.

 

[Ray]

****

 

[Ray]

The FBI is spying on PETA, Greenpeace, and the Catholic Workers league. All authorized by John Ashcroft, Attorney General for President Bush.

I'm don't know about the Catholic Worker's League but I'm all for outlawing PETA and Greenpeace.

 

[michaeledward]

I'm don't know about the Catholic Worker's League but I'm all for outlawing PETA and Greenpeace.

That's good to know...

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Who needs the stinkin' First Amendment to the Constitution, anyhow.

 

[Ray]

That's good to know...

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Who needs the stinkin' First Amendment to the Constitution, anyhow.

Are you suggesting that PETA members always peaceably assemble? Besides, they threaten the whole Kentucy fried chicken industry... My recollection on greenpeace is that they are not always the peaceable assemblers that some may think...

 

[mrhnau]

That's good to know...



Who needs the stinkin' First Amendment to the Constitution, anyhow.

Yeah... lets go torch some SUV's in California, lace trees with chains so lumberjacks kill themselves... sounds like a plan .

I'm all for freedom of assembly and the first amendment. However, I also believe those organizations should be shown for what they are. Some people will still love them. Some people will not. Lets be honest about them though, and what their motivations are.

Are you suggesting that PETA members always peaceably assemble? Besides, they threaten the whole Kentucy fried chicken industry... My recollection on greenpeace is that they are not always the peaceable assemblers that some may think..

Extreme groups exist on both sides. HOWEVER, I don't see alot of Republicans endorsing people who assassinate abortion doctors or blow up abortion clinics. A group does something like that with a republican/conservative group, it gets disowned. I don't see Republican activists groups staging anything violent...

 

[7starmantis]

Heh, this thread sort of reminds me of the "Black History Month" thread I started. So many generalized statements and hard grouping labels. Maybe not all democrats think and believe the same way....maybe thats the same with republicans....maybe Democrat and Republican are just labels that cause more confusion and problems than good.

7sm

 

[modarnis]

>>>Quote:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Who needs the stinkin' First Amendment to the Constitution, anyhow.>>

And how is being under investigation by the FBI violating the First Amendment? You originally posted something about a tattered cloak of the 4th amendment as your seguay into this. The first and fourth are extremely different in terms of how "people" are protected

It is far more plausible that an investigation would impact someone's 4th amendment rights (search and seizure in a general sense) than their first amendment rights

 

[michaeledward]

>>>Quote:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Who needs the stinkin' First Amendment to the Constitution, anyhow.>>

And how is being under investigation by the FBI violating the First Amendment? You originally posted something about a tattered cloak of the 4th amendment as your seguay into this. The first and fourth are extremely different in terms of how "people" are protected

It is far more plausible that an investigation would impact someone's 4th amendment rights (search and seizure in a general sense) than their first amendment rights

Being under investigation by the FBI is not a violation of the First Amendment. It may very well by a violation of the 4th Amendment - depending on the extent of the investigation.

However, expressing the desire to outlaw PETA and GREENPEACE is an affront the the first amendment. Notice the arguments immediately go to the Earth Liberation Front (Setting SUV's on fire) not to PETA or GREENPEACE.

Actions of civil disobediance do not destroy property or harm people.

 

[michaeledward]

. I don't see Republican activists groups staging anything violent...

Been to Iraq lately?

 

[mrhnau]

Been to Iraq lately?

Met any democrats that happily voted to go?

 

[Ray]

Being under investigation by the FBI is not a violation of the First Amendment. It may very well by a violation of the 4th Amendment - depending on the extent of the investigation.

However, expressing the desire to outlaw PETA and GREENPEACE is an affront the the first amendment. Notice the arguments immediately go to the Earth Liberation Front (Setting SUV's on fire) not to PETA or GREENPEACE.

Actions of civil disobediance do not destroy property or harm people.

People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals provides aid and comfort for the Earth Liberation Front (ELF) and the Animal Liberation Front (ALF). The two groups are responsible for more than 600 crimes since 1996, causing (by a very conservative FBI estimate) more than $43 million in damage. ALF’s “press office” brags that in 2002, the two groups committed “100 illegal direct actions” -- like blowing up SUVs, destroying the brakes on seafood delivery trucks, and planting firebombs in restaurants.
The FBI calls ALF and ELF the nation’s “most serious domestic terrorism threat.” Bruce Friedrich, PETA’s “vegan campaign director” and third-in-command, didn’t seem to care when he addressed the Animal Rights 2001 convention in Virginia, telling a crowd of over 1,000 activists that “blowing stuff up and smashing windows” is “a great way to bring about animal liberation.”
“It would be great,” he added, “if all the fast-food outlets, slaughterhouses, these laboratories and the banks who fund them exploded tomorrow.”
PETA’s connections to ALF and ELF are indisputable. “We did it, we did it. We gave $1,500 to the ELF for a specific program,” PETA’s Lisa Lange admitted on the Fox News Channel. PETA has offered no fewer than eight different explanations of what the “specific program” was, but law enforcement leaders have noted that since the Earth Liberation Front is a criminal enterprise, it has absolutely no legal “programs” of any kind.
For instance, in 2003, ELF set fire to an unfinished, 200 unit condominium complex near San Diego. The arson caused $50 million in damage, and according to a San Diego Fire Captain: “It could have killed someone.” ELF left its calling card in the form of a twelve foot sign that read: “If you build it -- we will burn it -- the ELF’s are mad.”
PETA also has given $2,000 to David Wilson, then a national ALF “spokesperson.” The group paid $27,000 for the legal defense of Roger Troen, who was arrested for taking part in an October 1986 burglary and arson at the University of Oregon. It gave $7,500 to Fran Stephanie Trutt, who tried to murder the president of a medical laboratory. It gave $5,000 to Josh Harper, who attacked Native Americans on a whale hunt by throwing smoke bombs, shooting flares, and spraying their faces with chemical fire extinguishers. All of these monies were paid out of tax-exempt funds, the same pot of money constantly enlarged by donations from an unsuspecting general public.
PETA president Ingrid Newkirk is also an acknowledged financial supporter of a publication called No Compromise. This periodical operates on behalf of the radicals of ALF, and often publishes underground “communiqués” and calls to arms from ALF leaders.
Most ominously, PETA president Ingrid Newkirk was involved in the multi-million-dollar arson at Michigan State University that resulted in a 57-month prison term for Animal Liberation Front bomber Rodney Coronado. At Coronado’s sentencing hearing, U.S. Attorney Michael Dettmer said that PETA’s Ingrid Newkirk arranged ahead of time to have Coronado send her a pair of FedEx packages from Michigan -- one on the day before he burned the lab down, and the other shortly afterward.
The first FedEx, according to the Sentencing Memorandum, was delivered to a woman named Maria Blanton, “a longtime PETA member who had agreed to accept the first Federal Express package from Coronado after being asked to do so by Ingrid Newkirk.” The FBI intercepted the second package, which had been sent to the same address. It contained documents that Coronado stole before lighting his firebombs, as well as “a videotape of the perpetrator of the MSU crime, disguised in a ski mask.” Since Coronado was convicted of the arson, we now know that he himself was that masked man. “Significantly,” wrote U.S. Attorney Dettmer, “Newkirk had arranged to have the package delivered to her days before the MSU arson occurred.” (emphasis in the original)
A search warrant executed at Blanton’s home turned up evidence that PETA’s other co-founder, Alex Pacheco, had also been planning burglaries and break-ins along with Rodney Coronado. The feds seized “surveillance logs; code names for Coronado, Pacheco, and others; burglary tools; two-way radios; night vision goggles; [and] phony identification for Coronado and Pacheco.”
Shortly after Coronado’s arrest, PETA gave $45,200 to his “support committee” and “loaned” $25,000 to his father (the loan was never repaid and PETA hasn’t complained). Now free from jail, with an expired parole, and with the benefit of an expired Statute of Limitations on his many earlier arsons (to which he readily confesses in his standard stump speech), Coronado stood before a crowd of hundreds of young people at American University in January 2003 and demonstrated how to turn a milk jug into a bomb. A few days later, ALF criminals tried to burn down a McDonald’s restaurant in Chico, California, using a firebomb that matched Coronado’s recipe.
The following month, Ingrid Newkirk told ABC News that Rodney Coronado is “a fine young man.”
Newkirk wrote a book called Free the Animals! The Untold Story of the U.S. Animal Liberation Front and Its Founder, ‘Valerie.’ In it she writes: “The ALF has, over the years, trusted People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) to receive copies of the evidence of wrongdoing … I have also become somewhat used to jumping on a plane with copies of freshly purloined documents and hurriedly calling news conferences to discuss the ALF’s findings.” Indeed, PETA has held such press conferences just hours after ALF arsons and other break-ins.
PETA has published a leaflet called “Animal Liberation Front: the Army of the Kind.” In another pamphlet, “Activism and the Law,” PETA openly offers advice on “burning a laboratory building.”
“I will be the last person to condemn ALF,” says Newkirk. And in another interview: “I find it small wonder that the laboratories aren’t all burning to the ground. If I had more guts, I’d light a match.” In ALF’s publication Bite Back (yes, this terrorist group has a newsletter), Newkirk has said: “You can’t have all politeness and patience, all potlucks and epistles … Some people will never budge unless [they are] pushed to budge.”
Perhaps Newkirk’s most telling comment, though, came in a 2002 U.S. News & World Report feature. “Our nonviolent tactics are not as effective,” she admitted. “We ask nicely for years and get nothing. Someone makes a threat, and it works.”
Copyright © 2005 Center for Consumer Freedom. All rights reserved.

 

[michaeledward]

This in, from the Associated Press.

"Any time you hear the United States government talking about wiretap, it requires -- a wiretap requires a court order," he said on April 20, 2004 in Buffalo, New York.

On April 19, 2004, Bush said the Patriot Act enabled law-enforcement officials to use "roving wiretaps," which are not fixed to a particular telephone, against terrorism, as they had been against organized crime.

"You see, what that meant is if you got a wiretap by court order -- and by the way, everything you hear about requires court order, requires there to be permission from a FISA court, for example," he said in Hershey, Pennsylvania.

So, I guess that's all true, except when its not.