Is anyone out there STILL a Republican?

Discussion in 'US Election 2008' started by michaeledward, Dec 16, 2005.

  1. michaeledward

    michaeledward Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2003
    Messages:
    6,063
    Likes Received:
    82
    Trophy Points:
    158
    Today we learn the Republican President has unleashed the National Security Agency on illegal monitoring of United States citizens.

    The former Majority Leader in the House of Representatives is under indictment for money laundering.

    The Senate Majority Leader is being investigate by the Securities and Exchange Commission for insider trading in his families company... a publicly traded firm over which is Senate position wielded influence.

    A long-time Republican Congressman has pleaded guilty to receiving more than 2 million dollars in bribes.

    Add to these charges the secret prisons, the exploding deficit, the war on 'Happy Holidays', the abuse inside Public Broadcasting, libraries.

    Is there anyone who can proudly proclaim being a Republican?

    What would Lincoln think?
     
  2. OnlyAnEgg

    OnlyAnEgg Senior Master

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2004
    Messages:
    4,402
    Likes Received:
    29
    Trophy Points:
    158
    Location:
    Savannah
    I think there's a lot of ugliness in politics, overall; however, the actions of others with the same general title as I have neither means I do the same nor does it imply I condone such actions.
     
  3. Ray

    Ray Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2004
    Messages:
    1,391
    Likes Received:
    53
    Trophy Points:
    73
    Location:
    Creston, IA
    Thanks for asking, I'm a republican. I once was a democrat, but I grew up.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. JAMJTX

    JAMJTX Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2005
    Messages:
    211
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    18
    The government has been doing mass monitoring of telephone calls for a long time. The clinton admin wasdoing this long before Bush. The clinton admin also kept a close eye on the internet. Phone transmissions are monitored for "key words" and unusual activity. Then more close attention is paid to certain phone lines.

    The phony charges against Delay will likely be dropped. Some of them already have been. You will also likely see the democrat prosecutor up on charges when this is all over.

    There is no evidence of "secret prisons". All we have on this is suspected terrorist giving thier stories to democrat media. Why should any American believe it?

    By abuse in public broadcatsing do you mean the left wing spin put on the news and stories? Or the attempt to correct that?

    As for the "deficit", the federal government was about 35 trillion dollars in debt when Bush took over. Why is that never covered in the media?
    Why not the clinoton admin cooking the books? They removed Social Security spending from deficit reporting to make it look like they were balancing the budget. The Bush admin was forced to put it back in, now it looks like they "balooned the defcit".

    Atleast what we are not seeing on the part of the GOP, is exactly what we see from the democrats on a daily basis - outright treason and betrayal of the American troops with support of the enemy in a time of war. I fail to see how the democrats can claim to be an American political party.
     
  5. Bob Hubbard

    Bob Hubbard Retired

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    • Founding Member
    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2001
    Messages:
    47,249
    Likes Received:
    765
    Trophy Points:
    248
    Location:
    Land of the Free
    Uh, "Way to go Boys! Now lets go subsidize more special interests, and wage a few more illegal and unpopular wars! Whoo Hoo!".

    Sorry, I couldn't resist.
     
  6. DngrRuss

    DngrRuss Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2005
    Messages:
    99
    Likes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    8
    I just love how both the Reps and the Dems think that their party and their decisions are always right and the oter side is is always wrong. Both sides are guilty of saying the other is immoral, criminal, and unAmerican.

    THEY ARE BOTH WRONG!

    What dissapoints me the most is that those aligned with a party often follow the leaders vs. the ideals. Following an ideal is less fallible then following a man. But if the man says he is a Rep or a Dem, chides the other side- even when they are right- and rallies his party behind him- even when he is wrong, it does nothing but lead the real majority- the middle- away from the political process.

    I wonder why anyone is still a member of either party?
     
  7. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2005
    Messages:
    12,972
    Likes Received:
    2,543
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    San Francisco
    Well, it looks like youv'e got your answer.

    In truth, posting a question like this is sort of inflamatory. It invites argument with people who often feel passionately about the topic. Unfortunately, it is a rarity that arguments on either side actually do something to convince the others.

    Nobody actually knows the real truth of what is going on, and who is ultimately responsible for the woes that our nation has created for itself, and colossal mistakes that our government has made. Often the seeds of these problems and mistakes were sown decades ago or longer, even to the early days of the independence of our nation. We are the unfortunate ones who are stuck with the results. In the meantime, everyone puts their own spin on the issues to shift the blame to a previous administration, or the current administration, or the CIA, or whomever is easiest to be the sacrificial lamb.

    What do I think? I think that our nation has a long history of committing abuses around the world, and these abuses have collectively lead to our current problems. We as a nation and as a culture need to make some deep changes in how we behave and how we live. We have consistently exploited and bullied other, weaker nations, for our own profit and given them very little in return. This has caused us to be hated and reviled around the world. Our politicians are bought by big corporations, and long term health and survival of both the economy and our planet's natural resources are sacrificed for short term profits. This myopic tunnel vision may be the thing that ultimately destroys us all.

    We as citizens of this nation need to be willing to give up our basic greed, stop grubbing for the quickest profits, move away from an out of control consumeristic lifestyle and find a more reasonable balance between our labor and our luxury expectations. There is an incredible amount of waste and worthless junk that we are subjected to, on a consumer level. It really saddens me when I see it.

    These issues are neither Democrat or Republican. Both parties have contributed to our problems. While I believe the current administration is full of monsters and thugs, neither do I believe the democrats will be the saviors. They would probably mess things up just as badly, only in different ways.

    What is the answer? I have no idea. But I think it has to start with each of us, as individuals. Look around you and examine your life. If we all decide that we want higher standards of accountability in our government, and we want to do something to improve our nation's activities domestically and around the globe, it will only happen if our citizens collectively decide they want to make a change. We need to stop polarizing ourselves into combative factions like Democrat vs. Republican. We need to wake up and acknowledge the stupidity of our nation's past actions and vow to make it better.

    my two and a half cents.
     
  8. DngrRuss

    DngrRuss Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2005
    Messages:
    99
    Likes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    8
    If that's how "grown up" is defined, I'll happily stay immature.

    I am a devout cynic. I heard a a great definition of cynic the other day. A cynic is nothing but a burned-out idealist.

    I still like to think of myself as a bit of an idealist, though time and age have worn me down.
     
  9. OnlyAnEgg

    OnlyAnEgg Senior Master

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2004
    Messages:
    4,402
    Likes Received:
    29
    Trophy Points:
    158
    Location:
    Savannah
    Agreed. Sadly, though, a monsterous amount of resources and effort is mounted against us, cloyingly striving to get us to buy, buy, buy.
     
  10. michaeledward

    michaeledward Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2003
    Messages:
    6,063
    Likes Received:
    82
    Trophy Points:
    158
    So, what are your feelings on these abuses?

    Are they what the Republican Party stands for?

    What are the principles of the Republican Party that you 'Grew Up' to?

    Are they still core values of your party?

    Where can I see them in action?

    I have often read George Will's columns with a great deal of respect. I think that he is often wrong, but he is always principled. I am wondering what those principles are now. Or, are we witnessing the destruction of those principles.

    Now, I understand there is a difference between a Conservative (George Will) and Republican (George Bush) ... but what does it mean to be a Republican today.



    I am going to my best to leave aside the unsubstantiated claims about democrats .... I am trying to understand a quick description of what it means to be a Republican. (That has always been easier than a quick description of a Democrat).
     
  11. DngrRuss

    DngrRuss Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2005
    Messages:
    99
    Likes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    8
    I am reminded of a thread I started a couple months ago called Honest Self Examination.

    Of all the posts on the thread, only a few did what the thread was designed to do: examine those things that people don't like about their party or their political peers.

    Instead of being honest about the things that irk folks about their party (ie. how hard it is to be a pro-choice Republican), most slammed me for even bringing up the idea.

    I was not suprised, but I had hoped that a little mid-ground could be reached between prople that normally couldn't see eye to eye. I guess that that is too much to ask.

    I did notice that those that did play along tended to lean left. Those that slammed me- and even gave me neg points- came from the right. Why? What is it about the right that makes them above reproach?

    Then to add attitudes like being Republican is grown up and well Clinton did it, so why aren't you going after him is just useless. Getting into an intelligent dialogue with a Republican is just as tough as getting into one with a radical leftie. What I have observed though, is that the Rep party has gone the way of extreme right, whereas the Dems- on the whole- haven't gone over the left edge. Yes, there are nutty lefty Dems, but they are not the majority voice of the party. The Reps keep the religious right on the front line of their agenda- but I don't see the Dems using the same far-left end of the line as their foot-soldiers. The religious right is just as far off the mainstream as the nutty left- they just don't realize it. But Reps put them out as the face of the party and bully the public with terms like unAmerican if you don't agree.

    What I don't think the Reps recognize is that the word conservative is starting to become as demonized as liberal. Neither is wrong or evil, but both have become so polarized that the mainstream is just getting discusted.

    Both sides need to stop the party-politicing and start actually looking toward what is best for us financially, militarily, and socially. One ideaology alone is not enough for Americans, and simply won't work.
     
  12. Ray

    Ray Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2004
    Messages:
    1,391
    Likes Received:
    53
    Trophy Points:
    73
    Location:
    Creston, IA
    I get abused by democrats, republicans, libertarians and everyone else. It's like the old story of a people/nation that were constantly being taken over by the latest empire...they didn't care who the emperor was...they paid their taxes just the same. As long as the empire let them pay the tribute and otherwise left them alone, then they didn't care who was in power.
    I don't know if these are "principles" but the republican party seems to best represent my views of responsible government. Some examples include:
    I used to believe the death penalty was wrong, now I don't.

    I used to believe that entitlements and a more "socialistic" means of "helping" people was the answer to poverty and unequal distribution of resources.

    I used to believe that on-demand abortion for minors, without parental consent, {and funded by the "gov't" if necessary} was the right thing to do. Now I don't.

    I used to believe that churches should not be given tax exempt status. Now I do, for the most part.

    I used to believe that war was wrong in any circumstances. Now I believe that some things are worth fighting and dying for.

    I used to believe that rich people (like Bill Gates) really didn't need all their money; that a huge chunk of it should be taken away from him and given to the {poor, for example}. Now I believe differently.

    I used to think that displays of religion in public were offensive and an affront to me.
    You might categorize me as a social and fiscal conservative. The republican party seems to be the one that best represents my consevative views.
    Face it, both sides take potshots at the other. Neither group of people is comprised of perfect, altruistic angels.
    I'll bite: What's a quick and easy description of a democrat?
     
  13. michaeledward

    michaeledward Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2003
    Messages:
    6,063
    Likes Received:
    82
    Trophy Points:
    158
    Thank you.

    Quick Easy Descriptions of Democrats are damn near impossible ... my best shot is "We're all in this together".

    I used to think that displays of religion in public were offensive and an affront to me.

    You are aware that there is a great deal of an anti-semetic tinge to the current 'War on Christmas' rhetoric? An informal survey of Priests and Nuns showed that they wished people a 'Happy Holidays'. Is the Republican Party waging war on Islam? Judeaism? or other non-Christian faiths? How is this manifested in the Republican Party today?

    I used to believe that war was wrong in any circumstances. Now I believe that some things are worth fighting and dying for.

    This is close to an insinuation that being other than Republican is the mark of a coward ... I will let that pass, with only this slight mention.
    Do you think it is appropriate for the United States government to fund those things worth fighting and dying for at $0.48 cents for every income tax dollar raised? Is the Republican Party now the party of the Military Industrial complex, transferring wealth from the citizens to War Machine?

    I used to believe that churches should not be given tax exempt status. Now I do, for the most part.

    "for the most part"?

    I'm not sure what that means? Is it OK for a preacher to stand before his congregation and tell them how to vote according to God's will? Is it OK for congregations to use the money they raise, tax free, for political purposes?

    I submit Harriet Miers as exhibit A. There was quite a bit of tax-free money thrown around to get her name withdrawn from the 'Up and Down' vote that so many Republicans call for (although, that is not Constitutional, either, by the way).



    These specific arguments aside ... and by the way, I think many of these things you claim that you used to believe, are largely rhetoric ... but that's OK.

    Can the Republican Party really be 'conservative' and support the 'believers' (Terri Shiavo). Aren't the actions of the current Republican Party leadership a bit schizophrenic?

    Looking at the actions, and not just the words .... If the guiding principle of the Republican Party (as so aptly described recently by Mr. Will) is the right to 'persue happiness', aren't the actions of government under Republican Leadership trying to 'grant happiness' (perscription drugs).

    Individual Liberty except we have unauthorized wiretaps?

    Seems odd to me.
     
  14. Ray

    Ray Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2004
    Messages:
    1,391
    Likes Received:
    53
    Trophy Points:
    73
    Location:
    Creston, IA
    I believe we're all in this together too. Just that we have different ideas on what's the best way to help each other.
    I wage war on no religion. I am happy for people who have a religion that teaches to care and love one another. I'm happy for non-religious people that care and help others.
    That's not what I meant; but I have met more Dems who have said "war is never justified" than I have Republicans, in fact that is an exact quote from one.
    Thanks, I was worried for a minute :).
    We can't buy our Tomahawk missles down the same aisle as our generic corn, now can we?
    Nope, that's not in the most part; those that do service and aid those who haven't the resources to help themselves are in the most part.
    What i said isn't rehtoric. And I don't need you're "ok" to hold my beliefs.
    Are you saying John Dean became a republican?
    I just thought you wanted to know if there were people who are still republicans. I didn't realize that you really just wanted to convert us to the Democratic party. My mistake.
     
  15. michaeledward

    michaeledward Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2003
    Messages:
    6,063
    Likes Received:
    82
    Trophy Points:
    158
    I'm not trying to convert anyone.

    I am just witnessing what to my eyes is the self-destruction of the Republican Party.

    The PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES is spying on citizens with legal authority.... Isn't there an amendment against that kind of thing?

    The President's Adminstrationi petitioned the Free Press to withhold information from publication for a year (successfully)?

    When did these things become OK for a Republican?
     
  16. Ray

    Ray Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2004
    Messages:
    1,391
    Likes Received:
    53
    Trophy Points:
    73
    Location:
    Creston, IA
    The US swings a little to the right for a while and elects a republican pres for a term or two; then it swings to the left and elects a democratic pres for a term or two. All in all, the swing isn't really that big - we're pretty much in the center as a whole. You probably here all kinds of talk on the liberal side that we conservatives are evil and out of our minds; we hear the same thing about liberals. I hear that the Dems have gone so far as to loose their "grass roots" supporters, but I know it's not true; neither is this the "self destruction" of the republicans.

    Although I'd probably {it depends on who it is and their record} support the next Republican contender for Pres, I'm thinking we're going to have a Democrat win. I might whine a little bit, but it's not going to be the end of the world.

    It's not right for a republican to do wrong; neither for a democrat. A long list of allegations and proven wrong-doing on both sides can probably be put together. Since I'm fairly young, I can only start with the "crimes" of LBJ but I can continue with Nixon. I can't say too much bad about Ford or Carter [although I think Carter lacked the leadership skills required for the job, he does seem to be a very good human being].
     
  17. Cryozombie

    Cryozombie Grandmaster

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2003
    Messages:
    9,998
    Likes Received:
    206
    Trophy Points:
    173
    They didn't, they became "Ok" in Politics. Because we are too busy "choosing sides" and pointing fingers at groups to do ANYTHING about it.

    If all the damn liberals would stop screaming "look at the republicans, look at the president" (which, sorry to say, based on the title of this thread YOU are EXACTLY guilty of) and said "Holy Cow look at these Constitutional Rights Violations the Government is pulling!" You'd get a hell of a lot more milage. BUT... you guys have spent so much time punching the Republicans in the face that even tho you are right about the behavior you cant get them to side with you. I suspect the reverse is also true.

    Oh well. Can't do anything about it, cuz NO ONE IS EVER WRONG.
     
  18. michaeledward

    michaeledward Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2003
    Messages:
    6,063
    Likes Received:
    82
    Trophy Points:
    158
    Regardless of what I am doing ...

    The President of the United States authorized illegal searches. Bye Bye 4th Amendment.

    The President pressured the New York Times to withhold publishing the story, and succeeded. Bye Bye 1st Amendment.



    This isn't about me ... It's not about Michael Moore ... It's not even about Ann Coultur.
     
  19. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2005
    Messages:
    12,972
    Likes Received:
    2,543
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    San Francisco
    Yeah, too much generalized polarization, prevents anything from actually being done to correct what is wrong. We need to focus more on the fact that the wrong things are being done and need to be corrected, and less on the political parties the perpetrators happen to belong to. The entire governmen needs a general weeding all the way around.
     
  20. Cryozombie

    Cryozombie Grandmaster

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2003
    Messages:
    9,998
    Likes Received:
    206
    Trophy Points:
    173
    Hey man... *I* totaly agree... But how many Republicans are you gonna get to agree with you when your opening remark is a Slam at them?

    If I said "Idiot Liberals attack the US" and then proceed to post about a somthing that a democrat did... would you put that aside and look at the issue? Im thinking probably not.

    Damn man, we are Martial Artitsts, we should know a little about strategy.123
     

Share This Page