Iraqi Prisoners Abused, Humiliated, Tortured.

[hardheadjarhead]

Well, its documented.

American soldiers have abused Iraqi POW's with electric shock and other horrific methods...and they were idiotic enough to pose for pictures and video while doing it.

Its been on the evening news. Even the conservative "Drudge Report" is playing it up. The Arab stations, of course, have jumped on it.

This is going to:

Hurt the war effort.

Ruin troop morale.

Ruin the morale on the home front.

Get American hostages/prisoners killed at worst, abused at best.

Be one of the greatest recruiting incentives for future anti-American terrorists.

Do irreparable damage to Arab/US relations...which are rotten to begin with.

Make us look terrible in the eyes of our allies and the rest of the world.

Give our critics abroad and at home justification for saying "I told you so," in their efforts at demonizing us as a nation.


Geeeeezzzzzzz, whadda mess.

Regards,


Steve

 

[Touch Of Death]

A picture is worth a thousand words, and there are quite a few pictures. The President will be quite busy over the next few months.
Sean

 

[Makalakumu]

The Arab World is on fire because of this. It has been blazing on Al-jazeera all day today. Iraqis are claiming that Bush is no better then Saddam. Hopefully, this is an isolated incident. Hopefully the good soldiers attempting to secure "democracy" for Iraq can overcome this negative incident. That is my optimistic side speaking. My cynical side is waiting for more information...

Is this going to become a new Mai Lae?

upnorthkyosa

 

[Touch Of Death]

The Arab World is on fire because of this. It has been blazing on Al-jazeera all day today. Iraqis are claiming that Bush is no better then Saddam. Hopefully, this is an isolated incident. Hopefully the good soldiers attempting to secure "democracy" for Iraq can overcome this negative incident. That is my optimistic side speaking. My cynical side is waiting for more information...

Is this going to become a new Mai Lae?

upnorthkyosa

Those soldiers did more to undermine the war effort than Kerry and Kusinich combined.
Sean (www.iemat.com)

 

[Tgace]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...0430/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast_prisoner_abuse_12


While wrong, illegal and worthy of punishment....there was no "electrocution" and no physical injury (attributed to US troops. Aparently the Brits have an accusation). There should be, and looks like will be court martials all the way up the chain of command to include the General in charge of the camp. Mai Lai? Hardly.

 

[Makalakumu]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...0430/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast_prisoner_abuse_12


While wrong, illegal and worthy of punishment....there was no "electrocution" and no physical injury (attributed to US troops. Aparently the Brits have an accusation). There should be, and looks like will be court martials all the way up the chain of command to include the General in charge of the camp. Mai Lai? Hardly.

What happens in a court martial?

 

[theletch1]

What happens in a court martial?

It's very much like a civilian trial but without all those silly rights of the accused things. The result can be anything from loss of rank/pay, incarceration, forced retirement, dishonorable discharge or (although not in this case) execution.

 

[Ping898]

What happens in a court martial?

Basically, they hold a military trial, and decide whether to discharge a soldier, dishonorably or otherwise. If found guilty they can get get kicked out, have to pay punitive damages, be demoted, get jail time, loose their pension...things like that....depends how serious the crime and what charges are being brought. Least this is my understanding of them.

Got to love JAG

 

[loki09789]

The Arab World is on fire because of this. It has been blazing on Al-jazeera all day today. Iraqis are claiming that Bush is no better then Saddam. Hopefully, this is an isolated incident. Hopefully the good soldiers attempting to secure "democracy" for Iraq can overcome this negative incident. That is my optimistic side speaking. My cynical side is waiting for more information...

Is this going to become a new Mai Lae?

upnorthkyosa

I believe that in each case, Me Lai, Kosovo, and others that the troops were held accountable and punitive actions were taken. Time in Leavenworth was issued and served. These incidences are horrible, but the fact that they will be tried and punished for it, that there are things like the Geneva Code, and Laws of Land warfare would indicate that the US military reaction to such behavior is intolerance and disapproval - not cheering and joining the street dance around the corpses.

THese guys have really messed up, will be held accountable. Unfortunately, one of these incidents wipes out the thousands of little acts of humanity from our troops that never seem to make into the media.

 

[Makalakumu]

I believe that in each case, Me Lai, Kosovo, and others that the troops were held accountable and punitive actions were taken. Time in Leavenworth was issued and served. These incidences are horrible, but the fact that they will be tried and punished for it, that there are things like the Geneva Code, and Laws of Land warfare would indicate that the US military reaction to such behavior is intolerance and disapproval - not cheering and joining the street dance around the corpses.

THese guys have really messed up, will be held accountable. Unfortunately, one of these incidents wipes out the thousands of little acts of humanity from our troops that never seem to make into the media.

War in of itself is such a negative and inhumane thing. I think that examples of people acting brutally toward each other are what people what to see when it comes to war. There is a level of hatred that rides just beneath the surface of any war. How else can you justify killing someone because someone ordered you too? Every once and a while this hatred spews out in various ways...this is one example.

 

[loki09789]

War in of itself is such a negative and inhumane thing. I think that examples of people acting brutally toward each other are what people what to see when it comes to war. There is a level of hatred that rides just beneath the surface of any war. How else can you justify killing someone because someone ordered you too? Every once and a while this hatred spews out in various ways...this is one example.

I was trained to take those orders and never really hated the individual I might have to shoot, in conventional warfare the pace is too hectic for hatred or emotions to be registered in general.

I can justify such actions as swearing to an oath, to living by a code that doesn't make me the center of the universe and being willing to be part of something larger than myself, based on ideals that I agree with and am willing to stand up for.

This is not an indicator of universal US military hatred for another as much as it is misdirected power usage/abuse, the surfacing of personal issues that these individuals brought with them to their training and service from their DNA/Nurture pre-military, and possibly a lack of adequate supervision to monitor troop morale, welfare and mission readiness.

As a teacher, you should know that trainees are not empty vessels that we or in this case the military machine fills with stuff. They bring personality, experience and character (for good or bad) with them. Contrary to the popular belief that you loose your 'self' through the service and have no sense of free will left, you are REQUIRED to adhere to the basic Corps/Army values even to the point of disobeying orders if they are in violation of those values, the Geneva convention and the laws of land warfare.

 

[rmcrobertson]

"Silly rights of the accused things?"

Uh...seems to me that if there were one thread on which such a comment would be best avoided....

 

[theletch1]

"Silly rights of the accused things?"

Uh...seems to me that if there were one thread on which such a comment would be best avoided....

Yes, Robert, you have a good point. My response was targeted solely at the court martial question and not at the thread as a whole. I apologize for my insensitive remarks. :asian:

 

[marshallbd]

What happens in a court martial?

Acourt martial is very similar to civilian trials but they use the Uniform Code of Military Justice that is written in the form of articles covering things such as dereliction of duty, indecent acts with another person, Conduct unbecoming and many other categories. ( I mentioned those because an article I read stated those would be some of the charges).... They (the accused) would be judge by a "Courts Martial" which is similar to a jury trial with members of the military acting as the jury. (The Jury is usually even officer to enlisted for an enlisted persons trial but usuall all officers for an officers trial) The TV show JAG (though highly exagerated and dramatized) pretty accurately depicts a "Courts Martial" trial almost every episode.... :asian:

 

[marshallbd]

you are REQUIRED to adhere to the basic Corps/Army values even to the point of disobeying orders if they are in violation of those values, the Geneva convention and the laws of land warfare.

Hence the term "LAWFUL ORDER" is used as in....
"I do hereby solemly swear to obey the lawful orders of the President of the United States and those appointed over me" :asian:

 

[Cobra]

Well, its documented.

American soldiers have abused Iraqi POW's with electric shock and other horrific methods...and they were idiotic enough to pose for pictures and video while doing it.

Its been on the evening news. Even the conservative "Drudge Report" is playing it up. The Arab stations, of course, have jumped on it.

This is going to:

Hurt the war effort.

Ruin troop morale.

Ruin the morale on the home front.

Get American hostages/prisoners killed at worst, abused at best.

Be one of the greatest recruiting incentives for future anti-American terrorists.

Do irreparable damage to Arab/US relations...which are rotten to begin with.

Make us look terrible in the eyes of our allies and the rest of the world.

Give our critics abroad and at home justification for saying "I told you so," in their efforts at demonizing us as a nation.


Geeeeezzzzzzz, whadda mess.

Regards,


Steve

Hardheadjarhead, abused? Look bad to the rest of the world? Hah! Those Siddom Husein supporters deserved it. They have done much more worse things to the Iraqis that not even Hitler would imagine.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Dear "cobra:"

I see that the considerabel majority of posters on this theread get the concept. As for your post---vell, nothink to say but, "Javohl, mein herr."

Practicality uber alles. Hey, let's open kampfs. That'll learn 'em.

Last time I checked, we're supposed to be better than them. Not the same, not worse, not eye-for-an-eye--better, in terms of morality and action.

Never fails to amaze me, that some folks can't come up to the moral standards laid out in, say, "X-Men."

We're supposed to be better than those murderous, hating thugs. Do keep that in mind, eh?

 

[Tgace]

We are "better than them" because our military does things like this (suspensions/investigations/court martials)...instead of rewarding the wrong doers like Sadams Regime probably would have done...the military I experienced would never tolerate stuff like this once it was discovered.



By DAVID DISHNEAU, Associated Press Writer

CRESAPTOWN, Md. - The chief of the U.S. Army Reserve condemned the abusive treatment of Iraqi war prisoners Saturday and said he has ordered a study of whether reservists are sufficiently trained in ethical conduct and how to treat prisoners.

Following a meeting with families of the reserve unit at the center of the investigation, Lt. Gen. James R. Helmly said photographs of naked inmates forced to assume humiliating positions beside grinning military police reservists "go against the grain of everything America's Army stands for."

Helmly, commander of 1.1 million reservists, said that if the allegations against six reservists are true, "it undermines our values of respect, dignity and honor, and we hold those values deeply."

The reservists, members of the 372nd Military Police Company of Cresaptown, have been charged with crimes including dereliction of duty, cruelty, assault and indecent acts.

Their boss, Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski, commander of the 800th Military Police Brigade, and at least seven others have been suspended from their duties at the Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad, according to the U.S. military.

The New Yorker magazine obtained an Army report that said Iraqi detainees at the prison were subject to "sadistic, blatant and wanton criminal abuses."

Some of the family members said after the closed meeting with Helmly that they worried about their loved ones' safety because the outrage that the pictures, which first aired Wednesday on the CBS program "60 Minutes II," have provoked in the Arab world.

"We were notified that the same pictures that were used on "60 Minutes" now are being displayed on all Iraqi television programs, which probably puts our soldiers at greater risk," said Lora Maddas, whose cousin, Russell Gibbs, is a unit member but was not charged.

Jennifer Bird, 23, said her husband, Spc. Rodney Bird, told her about the investigation months ago. He is not among those charged.

"I think it's awful," she said. "I think it makes them all look bad."

Army Reserve spokesman Al Schilf said questions from the approximately 90 family members at the meeting mainly concerned the unit's extended deployment through early September. About 130 soldiers in the unit had already left Iraq (news - web sites) and were preparing to return home last month when their active duty was extended.

Earlier Saturday, the father of one accused reservist, Staff Sgt. Ivan L. "Chip" Frederick II, told NBC's "Today" show that he didn't believe the allegations.

"None of the photos that I've seen has shown my son abusing anybody, which I don't think he ever would," said Ivan L. "Red" Frederick.

President Bush (news - web sites) has condemned the mistreatment, saying he shared "a deep disgust that those prisoners were treated the way they were treated."

 

[Cobra]

Dear "cobra:"

I see that the considerabel majority of posters on this theread get the concept. As for your post---vell, nothink to say but, "Javohl, mein herr."

Practicality uber alles. Hey, let's open kampfs. That'll learn 'em.

Last time I checked, we're supposed to be better than them. Not the same, not worse, not eye-for-an-eye--better, in terms of morality and action.

Never fails to amaze me, that some folks can't come up to the moral standards laid out in, say, "X-Men."

We're supposed to be better than those murderous, hating thugs. Do keep that in mind, eh?

It is not the case of abusing, just bringing up the topic is pointless. Should we punish torture prisoner unhumanly? No. But if something like that happens, it isn't worth bringing up considering the rotten things thay did. It is like going to war. If you go to war, innocent people will get killed even on the opposing side (like Afganistan for example). But compared to the people they attaked, it isn't worth saying cause lives has already been los on the attackers side. Call it casualties of war. These arn't even casualties. These are low life scum who tortures their own people for fun.

 

[theletch1]

Cobra, you are correct in that civilians are killed in combat. It's called collateral damage. It's also one of the reasons that smart munitions have been created and improved upon. Torturing prisoners is NOT collateral damage. What these reservist did is inexcusable for a member of the U.S. military. If a police officer in this country were to toruture someone who had been arrested in this country for a violent crime it would (and has) cause such an outrage that the entire country would be up in arms. This situation is not much different. We are not in this fight to "teach someone a lesson" and military police are not there to punish anyone. The mission of the military policeman is much the same as the civilian policeman. They are there to guard prisoners from escape and from harm while in custody. By not only failing in their duty to protect the prisoners but harming them they have pushed the level of animosity against the coalition forces in the region beyond the breaking point. Any humanitrian services that the islamic people have seen from us will now be replaced or at least tempered with the visions of tortured prisoners.