Ineresting topic on E-digest

[Datu Tim Hartman]

>>He does mention Moncal, Bacon and Marranga
>>all of Balintawak note. He also uses balintawaks 12 basic strikes and
>>counters with the stance variations

>The balintawak numbering system and the Modern Arnis numbering system are actually different.

I didn't say the numbering system was the same. True, Strikes 3, 4, 6, 7,
8, 9 are switched around e.g. Modern Arnis 3 strike to the left shoulder is
a Balintawak strike to the right shoulder. However, the target areas,
general execution and types of strikes are the same.
My point being that Modern Arnis 12 basic strikes comes from Balintawak.

>>On the statement about agricultural or jungle fighting bolos.....well??
>>Looking through my books I don't see any particular difference between
>>the ones described in the books and the ones I have at home.

>Check out the DVD. Bram explains it far better than I do.

I try to bring back two or three knives back from the PI each trip. At
last count I have just over a dozen with these coming from different areas.
You can buy these knives from off street blacksmiths that forge them
mostly from leaf springs. If you tell them what you want they will make it
for you, however, the stock standard "bolo" ranges from about 18 in to 30
in. "Bolo" is a Tagalog word, Visayans use different words to distinguish
between the various types. Stock standard bolos are all of agricultural
use. Ask these guys to make you a "Jungle fighting bolo" and they will
look at you as if you're crazy. From any of my experience in the PI I've
never come across a "Jungle fighting bolo"


Interesting side point to the "Jungle Fighting Bolo" story is that there is
a rumour that a special machete was manufactured in Australia for the 978th
Signal Service company during WW2. These guys were Macarthur's "mission
men" inserted into the PI by submarine. They were trained both at Camp X
and jungle fighting by Australian troops at Canungra jungle training
centre. These guys were recruited from the 1st (and 2nd) Filipino
Regiments who fought in New Guinea and participated in the reinvasion of
the PI. For these guys the bolo was not standard issue. From what I can
tell no bolos were issued as part of the standard kit (unlike Gurkha's with
their Kurkri) for any of the Filipino troops raised either at the start of
the war in the PI or in the states.

>From what I know of balintawak having just been in cebu, I was told by
several masters >there that balintawak is stick based. Originally when
Anciong Bacon studied the art, it >was espada y daga based.

Anciong didn't study Balintawak, he created it. Moncal and Marranga were
just two of his senior students. The "poking of the dagger into training
partners" is pre Balintawak when he was involved with the Doce Pares club.
Who did you study with in Cebu?

 

[bart]

Hey Folks,

In 2000 I was able to attend a seminar with Master Nick Elizar of Balintawak in Cebu. They went over some basic defenses and some of it really reminded me of Modern Arnis. That same trip I was able to get a good session with Master Drigo Maranga. I was again intrigued at how much of the roots of Modern Arnis lie within Balintawak. Modern Arnis is fundamentally different, the two arts having branched and gone in different and at times almost unrecognizable directions. But the "single-stickness" of Modern Arnis and some of the very very basic techniques are too similar to have developed similarly by chance alone especially given the history of GM Presas in Balintawak.

 

[loki09789]

I am confused about the purpose of the original post. Is it to dispute the highlighted portion, discuss the idea and if so which one specifically? The topic of Bolo, Balitawak, Modern Arnis/Balitawak comparison/contrast? Who wrote what portions of the post (bolded and the unbolded portions)?

I would say that given GM RP training history, the Balintawak link is pretty clear. There are definitely similarities, but there are also differences.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

The topic of Bolo, Balitawak, Modern Arnis/Balitawak comparison/contrast?

All, none, what ever you choose. There are a couple topics in the thread. What do you think?
:whip:

 

[Emptyglass]

Interesting side point to the "Jungle Fighting Bolo" story is that there is
a rumour that a special machete was manufactured in Australia for the 978th
Signal Service company during WW2. These guys were Macarthur's "mission
men" inserted into the PI by submarine. They were trained both at Camp X
and jungle fighting by Australian troops at Canungra jungle training
centre. These guys were recruited from the 1st (and 2nd) Filipino
Regiments who fought in New Guinea and participated in the reinvasion of
the PI. For these guys the bolo was not standard issue. From what I can
tell no bolos were issued as part of the standard kit (unlike Gurkha's with
their Kurkri) for any of the Filipino troops raised either at the start of
the war in the PI or in the states.[/B]

This is interesting information. However, these are worth looking at:

http://pt-go.com/popup.asp?ImagePath=images/Legacy3.jpg

and

http://pt-go.com/popup.asp?ImagePath=images/Legacy2.jpg

I suppose it is possible that those pictures are war propoganda and used to encourage soldiers. However, I would also put forth that given the size and scope of a conflict like World War 2 in the Far East, that the bolos shown were used for jungle fighting by some Filipino regiments at some point. I'm not sure where the idea of the blade depicted being "special issue" or of a special design came from. However, it does indeed seem to be designed for slicing and stabbing living creatures rather than cutting reeds or rice.

Also, the photos on page 13 of The Filipino Martial Arts by Dan Inosanto also shows this exact weapon. This is a near perfect match of the bolo used by Master Bram Frank in CSSDSC - The Bolo Vol. 1-2. Since the blades he uses were given to him by Grandmaster Presas and he was told they were used by his relatives during the war (IIRC), I guess it depends on who you want to believe.

However on that same page is a picture of a regiment of Filipino soldiers training with what look like standard machetes so I would think that different regiments were supplied with whatever weapons were at hand or locally available for requisition and that it most likely varied quite a bit.

Rich Curren

 

[loki09789]

All, none, what ever you choose. There are a couple topics in the thread. What do you think?
:whip:

It would be easier to comment if I knew who was posting which portion of the post. Who wrote the bolded portion and who wrote the unbolded?

 

[Emptyglass]

I try to bring back two or three knives back from the PI each trip. At
last count I have just over a dozen with these coming from different areas.
You can buy these knives from off street blacksmiths that forge them
mostly from leaf springs. If you tell them what you want they will make it
for you, however, the stock standard "bolo" ranges from about 18 in to 30
in. "Bolo" is a Tagalog word, Visayans use different words to distinguish
between the various types. Stock standard bolos are all of agricultural
use. Ask these guys to make you a "Jungle fighting bolo" and they will
look at you as if you're crazy. From any of my experience in the PI I've
never come across a "Jungle fighting bolo"

I hadn't heard that you had been to the Philippines. Congratulations. That must have been educational. Where/when did you go and did you do any training with the Modern Arnis Masters (or other arnisadors) there?

Rich Curren

 

[Guro Harold]

I believe Tim was quoting from this source from E-Digest not writing his own comments:

Eskrima Digest, Vol11 #272, Message 1, titled Balintawak and bolos by (david eke)

 

[Emptyglass]

Ahhh, makes sense now as it appeared to me the bolded comments were Tim's inclusions.

Thanks Palusut.

Rich Curren

 

[bart]

Hey Folks,

Tim posted this as a quote from the eskrima digest. I believe the bolded parts are actually from a guy named David Eke and they're responses to another person's statements. I'd have to look through the old ED for who exactly David responded to. It's from Eskrima digest Vol 11 #272. It's an interesting thread surrounding Modern Arnis Jungle Fighting Bolos and whether or not it's made up or authentic.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

It's an interesting thread surrounding Modern Arnis Jungle Fighting Bolos and whether or not it's made up or authentic.

That's not what I'm trying to say, but Bart got the idea. There are a couple of interesting topics in this thread that we could discuss.

 

[loki09789]

That's not what I'm trying to say, but Bart got the idea. There are a couple of interesting topics in this thread that we could discuss.

I would still like to know the two authors that you are taking excerpts from to start this discussion. Citation would help with context.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

I would still like to know the two authors that you are taking excerpts from to start this discussion. Citation would help with context.

Then don't post or look in the E-digest archive.

http://www.martialartsresource.com/anonftp/pub/eskrima/newdigests/v11.n272.txt

:whip: :btg: :flushed:

 

[loki09789]

Then don't post or look in the E-digest archive.

http://www.martialartsresource.com/anonftp/pub/eskrima/newdigests/v11.n272.txt

:whip: :btg: :flushed:

I don't understand this comment, but I did check out the referenced archive. Dave posted his comments, but who wrote the he is responding to when he posted?

 

[bart]

Hey Folks,

Before we get too heated, here are the orginal posts that started this thread in the ED along with links so you can view them in their orginal form. It's got some interesting points that are good for discussion specifically concerning Modern Arnis. Specifically of interest to me is the assertion that [email protected] (no name in the post) makes in the second post about the "real history of Modern Arnis" in concern to the Bram Frank's Bolo origins.


This is the orginal post from Dan Anderson in which he reviews Bram Frank's video on Jungle Bolos in Modern Arnis:

click to see

Message: 6
From: "Danny Anderson" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 23:59:22 +0000
Subject: [Eskrima] RE: Bram Frank's Jungle Bolo DVD Review
Reply-To: [email protected]

Re: Bram Frank's Jungle Bolo DVD Review
Hi All,

I watched the new Bram Frank's Presas Jungle Bolo DVDs last night. George
Denson covered them fairly well in his post so I'll take a different tack in
this review.

What Bram does is go straight to the roots, historically and technically, of
Modern Arnis. Many of the actions Prof. Presas made which, on the surface,
students didn't get or failed to make sense of, are explained in this
series. Much of Modern Arnis is based on the blade work of his grandfather
and uncle and this is what you see. Bram shows the Presas family bolos and
his trainers are made according to specs. An interesting note is that he
makes the distinction between agricultural bolos and jungle fighting bolos.
His bolo is in the second catagory.

DVD #1 goes into the history and relevence of the blade to todays Modern
Arnis. Bram and Amy demonstrate basics of the blade and what happens to
areas you cut. There's a bit of functional anatomy lessons in there.

DVD #2 goes into Anyos 1-4 with a blade viewpoint and then variations off of
the bolo techniques. What I like most about this DVD set is that with Bram
going over the important points (and differences) of blade work, one can use
the data as starting points to continue your own research. This is vitally
important to anyone who has only done stick work (which comprises the bulk
of Modern Arnis players in the US). While he doesn't need it, I endorse the
hell out of this series. This is a missing piece of the pie for those with
mostly cane orientation in the FMA.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

PS- You can't beat the price either. You can get them on the CSSD/SD
website.

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/

--__--__--

This is the post to which David Eke responds which Tim put on MT:

click to see

Message: 4
To: [email protected]
From: <[email protected]>
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 00:04:26 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [Eskrima] Modern Arins
Reply-To: [email protected]

>What Bram does is go straight to the roots, historically and technically, >of
Modern Arnis. Many of the actions Prof. Presas made which, on the >surface,
students didn't get or failed to make sense of, are explained in >this series.
Much of Modern Arnis is based on the blade work of his >grandfather and uncle
and this is what you see. Bram shows the Presas >family bolos and his trainers
are made according to specs. An interesting >note is that he makes the
distinction between agricultural bolos and >jungle fighting bolos.

I'd have to dispute the statement about "Much of Modern Arnis is based
on the blade work of his grandfather and uncle." Interestingly, he
doesn't cite them as any particular influence in either his first book
"Modern Arnis, Philippine Martial Art "Stick Fighting" (I hunted
around for my Tagalog copy but I couldn't find it) or his second " The
Practical Art of Escrima". He does mention Moncal, Bacon and Marranga
all of Balintawak note. He also uses balintawaks 12 basic strikes and
counters with the stance variations

I understand this will annoy a lot of people but the truth is much of
Modern Arnis was about trying to mainstream Escrima and develop the
sportive aspects to make it more socially acceptable. Take a look at
his early books (the karate stances and tournament rules), this was the
real history of "Modern Arnis".

This is not to say he wasn't a fighter or he didn't know his stuff. He
was quite well known around Cebu. Seemed the mark of whether he really
liked you was whether he taught you Balintawak or not. Are you still
around Rocky??

On the statement about agricultural or jungle fighting bolos.....well??
Looking through my books I don't see any particular difference between
the ones described in the books and the ones I have at home.

--__--__--

The discussion on the ED was a little eclipsed by some other topics and may have garnered more interest if the list was quieter when it hit the scene.

 

[loki09789]

Hey Folks,

Before we get too heated, here are the orginal posts that started this thread in the ED along with links so you can view them in their orginal form. It's got some interesting points that are good for discussion specifically concerning Modern Arnis. Specifically of interest to me is the assertion that [email protected] (no name in the post) makes in the second post about the "real history of Modern Arnis" in concern to the Bram Frank's Bolo origins.


This is the orginal post from Dan Anderson in which he reviews Bram Frank's video on Jungle Bolos in Modern Arnis:

click to see




This is the post to which David Eke responds which Tim put on MT:

click to see



The discussion on the ED was a little eclipsed by some other topics and may have garnered more interest if the list was quieter when it hit the scene.

So, is Dave Eke responding to Dan Anderson or is it someone else?

 

[Guro Harold]

Mod: Note:

Hey Guys,

The Eskrima Digest is copyrighted material so we cannot liberally cut and paste its content here.

My suggestion is for someone to do as Bart had and gather all relavent links for those who do not subscribe to E-Digest to get up to speed.

Best regards,

Palusut

 

[bart]

So, is Dave Eke responding to Dan Anderson or is it someone else?

He's responding to both Dan and Deke and then one other person in the thread now that I look at it again. David doesn't really cite the person but just includes their words and writes his response below. I found the point of contention in the ED thread to be one surrounding the question as to whether the origins of Modern Arnis are from Balintawak, Karate, or from Remy's uncles and grandfathers as is apparently the assertion in Bram Frank's DVD. It seems likely to me that it may be all three as much as any single source. I do have to say that there is no such thing as a "jungle bolo" in my experience. A bolo is all purpose and is at home cutting jungle brush just as much as it is at getting buko juice or getting the chicken ready for dinner or taking care of the occasional home invasion robber. A bolo is a bolo is a bolo.

 

[Cruentus]

Mod: Note:

Hey Guys,

The Eskrima Digest is copyrighted material so we cannot liberally cut and paste its content here.

My suggestion is for someone to do as Bart had and gather all relavent links for those who do not subscribe to E-Digest to get up to speed.

Best regards,

Palusut

I think you can, as long as you credit the source.

 

[loki09789]

He's responding to both Dan and Deke and then one other person in the thread now that I look at it again. David doesn't really cite the person but just includes their words and writes his response below. I found the point of contention in the ED thread to be one surrounding the question as to whether the origins of Modern Arnis are from Balintawak, Karate, or from Remy's uncles and grandfathers as is apparently the assertion in Bram Frank's DVD. It seems likely to me that it may be all three as much as any single source

I'd say all the influences are present in different proportions depending on when/where you trained with him.

I have been going through the yellow book again recently and notice that the stick disarms are really disarms in a technical sense because they are motions for the purpose of taking away the opponents arms. Whereas, the freestyle blade disarms in the very next section aren't really disarms as much as defense. I think there are only two of the seven where RP actually 'disarms' the weapon and doesn't just redirect/control the weapon as he lays the smackdown on the feeder. It may be the distance for the fotos too, but the movements seem more shotokan/karate-ish to me than FMA/fluid. This is not a quality judgement, just a stylistic difference observation.