immature and unruly students...........................

[L Canyon]

how does your school deal with them?

During today's class, 2 students (a girl who is 13 and a guy who is 16) made asses of themselves buy non-stop verbal and physical horsing around, not only with themselves, but with some of the adult students. The 13-year old would not stop telling everyone how great she is, and kept trying to slap me until I had to get her in a wrist lock to stop her (she is 5'10" and 130 pounds - does not look like a kid). The 16 year old then told everyone how easy it would be for him to "beat me up" - he's a green belt, I am a 48 year old brown belt. I don't care if he could "beat me up" or not - I am sure there are plenty of big high school students who could - but I could not believe that this type of bs was allowed in class.

I don't think it's my job the set up rules and enforce them - if so, I would need payment for this chore.

I am really not interested in this "day care center" atmosphere.

I sent the teacher afterwards an email that he might not see me or my $$ again.

 

[Naha]

We have a lot of children in our dojo, but luckily the instructor does not put up with anything. That's the way it should be. Not only are you paying for the classes, but many people begin MA to develop discipline. Many of the children's parents place them in classes to help their attitude. It does if they stay, but the funny thing is that it helps the children's attitudes around the instructor. I've seen these children be very disrespectful to their parents even though they would not dare act that way towards the instructor.

I wish you the best. It's hard to train and learn in that type of environment.

 

[Cirdan]

Unruly students are dealt with this way:

1: told to shut up and behave
2: made to sit down and watch the others practice
3: sent home
4: denied grading
5: kicked out of the club

Matching them with a more skilled student and humbling them during sparring also tends to work.

 

[IWishToLearn]

I have a zero tolerance policy for my students. I set clear expectations before they ever strap on their uniform. They're welcome to watch a class or two and participate in one for free, but once we've reached their training agreement all students are bound by the zero tolerance policy. I don't teach to make money - I teach to help others learn. If someone gets in the way of learning, one of the senior students trades partners to work with the recalcitrant individual. If that person still continues - they're gone. No exceptions.

 

[terryl965]

All of my student knows if they act up they will be dealt with at that time. So we are lucky enough to have great kids.

 

[yrwca]

Yes. Nothing shows our true character more clearly than our children, our pets, and our students. It can truly be a growth experience.

 

[Kacey]

My expectations for my students are high - I rarely have such problems, as the first time there is a warning, the second time there are pushups, the third time, the student sits out... at that point (if they reach it - most don't) they either figure it out or leave. The only exception is a developmentally disabled adult - and even he has learned much better skills than when he started several years ago. You are exactly right to tell the instructor that either he controls their behavior or you walk.

 

[bydand]

Agree with the general postings so far. No reason to let students act like that, ever. With actions like that there is one stern warning then out. Agree that you should talk to the instructor, but, unfortunatly unless it was a really, really big class they should have seen it already. If that is the case, it doesn't sound like they have control over the class at all. Hope the situation is resolved and you don't have to walk away, but if you feel you do, good luck finding a new school that is a better fit and better managed.

 

[MJS]

how does your school deal with them?

During today's class, 2 students (a girl who is 13 and a guy who is 16) made asses of themselves buy non-stop verbal and physical horsing around, not only with themselves, but with some of the adult students. The 13-year old would not stop telling everyone how great she is, and kept trying to slap me until I had to get her in a wrist lock to stop her (she is 5'10" and 130 pounds - does not look like a kid). The 16 year old then told everyone how easy it would be for him to "beat me up" - he's a green belt, I am a 48 year old brown belt. I don't care if he could "beat me up" or not - I am sure there are plenty of big high school students who could - but I could not believe that this type of bs was allowed in class.

I don't think it's my job the set up rules and enforce them - if so, I would need payment for this chore.

I am really not interested in this "day care center" atmosphere.

I sent the teacher afterwards an email that he might not see me or my $$ again.

I've been in similar situations. Reading your post, one thing in particular caught my eye.

I don't think it's my job the set up rules and enforce them - if so, I would need payment for this chore.

Reading your post, I'm not sure if you were teaching the class or if you were there just taking it. In any case, to answer your question. When I was teaching, I had no problem with having someone sit out part of the class if they could not conduct themselves in a proper fashion. Its apparent that these kids, despite their age, are not mature enough to be with the adults.

If you were the inst., then yes, it is your job to enforce the rules of the school. If you were not teaching, was there an inst. present? If so, I would've brought this to their attn. ASAP.

Fooling around, no matter what the age, should not take place in the dojo. While this behavior is not acceptable, I'd wait to see what happens. I would hope that the person in charge of the school would address this matter with the students and their parents. If it continues, the inst. should tell them that they're no longer welcome in the school.

Mike

 

[Grenadier]

It's tempting, isn't it? Sometimes, you want to teach seom unruly people a lesson that doesn't come from a schoolbook. Sometimes, as a student, you want to go directly to the parents, and complain.

However, out of courtesy, the first thing to do is to speak with one of the instructors, or if possible, the chief instructor. Do this in person. Yes, an e-mail is nice, but sometimes, there are some things that cannot be expressed unless it's in person.

Let the instructor know that you cannot train under these circumstances, and that the behavior coming from those two unruly individuals is clearly unacceptable. If the instructor truly cares about what happens to the dojo, then he'll either shape up those two students one way or another, or he's going to lose more students in the same way.

As to whether or not you should confront the parents (as a student), that's a very slippery slope indeed. Of course there are going to be parents who will listen to you, and could possibly remedy the situation themselves. On the other hand, some parents aren't going to be in the right state of mind to listen. Some of them might believe that their kids are truly angelic beings, and to hear anything from a student, that could possibly question that belief, would be blasphemy. Many of these, however, might be more willing to listen, if an instructor (or their school teachers) say something.

All in all, if you're a student, continue to let the instructors know about the situation, and if it does not get fixed, then you are doing the right thing by going elsewhere. I would certainly not want to train at a school where students run around rampantly in an undisciplined manner, since this would speak about the instructor's inability to control them.


Now, on a somewhat related topic... Have you ever asked about becoming an instructor? If you enjoy teaching, and have patience, I think it would be a great experience for you.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

In any class there must be discipline and respect. It seems that this is lacking in your current class. Hopefully by addressing it with the instructor the situation can be resolved. If not then maybe you will need to find a training hall that suits your needs more. No matter what good luck in what you do.

 

[L Canyon]

thanks everyone...................the concencus is pretty clear.

Another note - the instructor was outside much of the time, working on his car. The animals were running the zoo.

 

[Robert Lee]

Its good to have seperate youth and adult classes. That way the format of instruction changes for the ages. Then where both are combined. The instructor should not allow any harse play or verbal abuse. And counsel any one that breaks the line in this matter. Then if that fails suspend the student for the sake of the other classmates..

 

[CuongNhuka]

Unruly students are dealt with this way:

1: told to shut up and behave
2: made to sit down and watch the others practice
3: sent home
4: denied grading
5: kicked out of the club

Matching them with a more skilled student and humbling them during sparring also tends to work.

We change number 2 into push ups. Anywere from 5 - 20 depending. I'm sure we go higher, but I've never seen it. I recall a story from years ago. Some idiot who just got promoted to black belt chalenged the head of the style to sparring match. O'Sensei responded by taking his still crisppy black belt. The moral? Never chalenge people to a sparring match, especially if they are the head of style. Maybe respectfully request a match to humble your self up.

 

[jks9199]

how does your school deal with them?

During today's class, 2 students (a girl who is 13 and a guy who is 16) made asses of themselves buy non-stop verbal and physical horsing around, not only with themselves, but with some of the adult students. The 13-year old would not stop telling everyone how great she is, and kept trying to slap me until I had to get her in a wrist lock to stop her (she is 5'10" and 130 pounds - does not look like a kid). The 16 year old then told everyone how easy it would be for him to "beat me up" - he's a green belt, I am a 48 year old brown belt. I don't care if he could "beat me up" or not - I am sure there are plenty of big high school students who could - but I could not believe that this type of bs was allowed in class.

I don't think it's my job the set up rules and enforce them - if so, I would need payment for this chore.

I am really not interested in this "day care center" atmosphere.

I sent the teacher afterwards an email that he might not see me or my $$ again.

I've ended up with a class that's mostly kids. We don't tolerate behavior like was described. I gear the correction to the seriousness of the misbehavior and to the age of the student. Pushups or other exercises are common "inducements" to behave better, and I've taken students out of the nights class on occasion.

It's the responsiblity of the instructor to maintain discipline. It's the responsibility of the senior students to model proper discipline and behavior in class. I've got a concern with the original poster's comment that "I had to get her in a wrist lock"; where was the intructor during this? What were the students supposed to be doing? What message does it send to kids who are screwing around when an adult, senior student grabs them? How does that differ, in their eyes, from their horseplay?

 

[Ceicei]

Another note - the instructor was outside much of the time, working on his car. The animals were running the zoo.

This took me by surprise.

Why would your instructor be outside fixing a car when he should be inside teaching his class??????!!!! He should reserve the car fixing for before or after class, but not during the time he should be officially teaching. If he can't teach at that time (maybe he is pressed to have the car fixed for whatever reason), he should make sure to have a very qualified instructor who can teach in his place AND also able to maintain class discipline.

- Ceicei

 

[L Canyon]

I've ended up with a class that's mostly kids. We don't tolerate behavior like was described. I gear the correction to the seriousness of the misbehavior and to the age of the student. Pushups or other exercises are common "inducements" to behave better, and I've taken students out of the nights class on occasion.

It's the responsiblity of the instructor to maintain discipline. It's the responsibility of the senior students to model proper discipline and behavior in class. I've got a concern with the original poster's comment that "I had to get her in a wrist lock"; where was the intructor during this? What were the students supposed to be doing? What message does it send to kids who are screwing around when an adult, senior student grabs them? How does that differ, in their eyes, from their horseplay?

We had just finished "form" and were involved in a "free workout", which means 1 on 1 improvised attack and defense, with light to medium contact, in an orderly fashion, with an assigned partner. They all know the drill, and how to properly "behave" in class. Also, my "grab" on her wrist was to get her to stop her nonsense, not to inflict pain on her. And, even when I made her stop trying to slap me, she went straight to the other kid, telling him off in front of the class - so basically what I did to her had zero effect. The instructor basically just watched. That could NEVER have been tolerated at the 2 previous schools where I studied.

Anyway, it's time for that soap opera to be put to rest.

 

[jks9199]

We had just finished "form" and were involved in a "free workout", which means 1 on 1 improvised attack and defense, with light to medium contact, in an orderly fashion, with an assigned partner. They all know the drill, and how to properly "behave" in class. Also, my "grab" on her wrist was to get her to stop her nonsense, not to inflict pain on her. And, even when I made her stop trying to slap me, she went straight to the other kid, telling him off in front of the class - so basically what I did to her had zero effect. The instructor basically just watched. That could NEVER have been tolerated at the 2 previous schools where I studied.

Anyway, it's time for that soap opera to be put to rest.

Then it sounds like the instructor wasn't doing his job. How can an exercise like that be "orderly" if the instructor isn't observing it and interacting with students? A "free workout" sort of exercise demands active supervision -- especially when there's a wide age and skill range involved.

It also sounds like there may be a major clash between what you expect, and what you're getting there. If you haven't received satisfactory responses from the owner/instructors, I'd suggest looking for a new school. One thing you might consider is asking if they teach kids and adults in the same class. I've personally found that it's very difficult to do so; young teens and below do OK with each other, older teens can usually be taught with adults, in my opinion.

 

[Last Fearner]

Hello L Canyon,

I find it interesting that you post these comments here about your school, and your instructor! There is not much about you in your profile, so I had to read some of your previous posts to get to know you better. I noticed where your teacher joined us here at MT:

I am interested in your forum.
I have instructed Kung-Fu San Soo for the past 28 years.
I am married and have two Children:

My oldest, works with the Autistic and Deaf. My youngest is a member of the USAF and is now serving in South Korea.

My school is in Reseda California.

And you welcomed him:

well, it's about time you showed up here, ####.

"########" is my San Soo instructor and is a great teacher. He learned from Jimmy H. Woo himself!

Then you ask....

immature and unruly students........................... how does your school deal with them?

Now, I have had experience with Kung-fu in my past, but I do not study San Soo - - I teach Taekwondo. Others have responded appropriately to your question above, and since it was asked on the General Martial Art forum, I will give my opinion.

I am aware that some schools have more lax discipline than others, and some instructors (or assistant instructors) are less qualified and experienced to deal with these issues. However, it seems to me that there is a level of misbehavior here that has been allowed for some time if a yellow belt and a green belt have promoted once or twice, yet not been taught better manners.

The 13-year old would not stop telling everyone how great she is, and kept trying to slap me until I had to get her in a wrist lock to stop her

Any student who speaks in a boastful manner should be immediately told, by ANY senior rank to change their attitude, and apologize for bragging. If a student is being inappropriately, physically aggressive (even if this was a free work-out session), then a stern word from her senior (you) should have been enough to suffice in getting her to stop. The word we use in Taekwondo is "geuman." Anyone who continues after a senior gives that command will automatically do push-ups. There should never be the need to physically restrain someone to get them to comply.

If her slaps were part of a training drill for attacking you, then fine - you could restrain her, but then she would not have been out of line for attempting to slap you as it would have been part of the drill. If not, then your words as her senior should have carried enough respect to get her to stop. If she failed to stop upon your command, then you should have backed off, and either told her to follow you to the instructor in charge, or brought the instructor to her to deal with the misbehavior immediately.

The 16 year old then told everyone how easy it would be for him to "beat me up" - he's a green belt

Again, at the moment he spoke with an inappropriate attitude, your verbal correction as his senior rank should have set him straight about what type of attitude is expected of students. His response should have then been, "Yes, Sir." Failing to change his attitude, or responding to you with respect should have been brought to the instructor's attention immediately. "Sir, I'm having difficulty with a green belt who is showing poor attitude, and failing to show proper respect to me when I correct him."

I am a 48 year old brown belt.

I don't think it's my job the set up rules and enforce them - if so, I would need payment for this chore.

You are a brown belt, and senior rank to both of these students (regardless of their ages, or your age). It is not your job to "set up rules" but it is part of your responsibility, as a senior rank Martial Artist, to enforce the rules of the school. If a head instructor, or school owner, can not be present on the floor when students are in the school, then it is their responsibility to place someone in charge - - preferably a certified instructor or assistant. If an assistant is present, and fails to address the problem, take it directly to their attention and ask for the guidance. If they still fail to handle the problem, go to the senior instructor, and respectfully discuss the issue. In the absence of an instructor, any senior rank should take it upon themselves to maintain discipline, and the rules of the school that should already be established and understood by every student. No one should consider this a "chore" and expect payment, but rather an honor, and part of your training as a senior rank for which you are paying for this opportunity to learn how to handle it better.

I sent the teacher afterwards an email that he might not see me or my $$ again.

This statement concerns me the most. I would hope that a brown belt, who I would presume has been training with this "teacher" for some time now, would have a better relationship with their instructor than to send them an e-mail threatening to quit over such a trivial incident rather than to have a private conference and respectfully state the problem. By now, you should have a better understanding of the policies and procedures, and know your instructor's willingness to enforce the rules, and back up a brown belt if a junior is disrespectful.

If this has been an ongoing problem, then I would have expected you to have had at least one conference with your instructor. If you have, and the situation is not being resolved to your satisfaction, I would further expect that a brown belt, who respects his teacher, would go to him and say, "Sir, this is not working out for me, therefore I must respectfully leave your school."

If you do not respect this instructor to take these steps, and phrase the issue appropriately, in private, without the threat of not seeing your "$" in an impersonal e-mail, then you probably shouldn't be training with this person in the first place. With your instructor being a new member here at Martial Talk, he is probably also reading your comments here, and I can only imagine the embarrassment of this issue being brought out in this manner. However, looking at his profile, I believe he is likely advanced enough to not be troubled by the embarrassment, and has probably dealt with such issues in the past. I do suggest you go to him in private, and attempt to learn from his response rather than telling him off!

This is my opinion based on the little information that has been presented.
On the other hand, I could be completely wrong!

CM D.J. Eisenhart

 

[bcbernam777]

I remember in my early days learning TKD i was mucking around in the class so I was made to do over 100 knuckle push ups, mind you i was 9 so I dont think I quite made it to my quota so I was forced to sit in the corner facing the wall, that was the last time I mucked up in class