I need help with finding a new fighting stance

[Flying Crane]

I think "reinventing the wheel" is the more apt analogy for this situation than "square peg in round hole". My TKD curriculum includes a lot of boxing-style punches. We don't train them as much as a boxer would, but punches are part of the art.

Sure, I am well aware that punching is part of TKD. I am not aware that punching in TKD is done similar to boxing.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

My point really is that people ought to consider whether or not there are conflicts, when they try to mix something.

Even then, I feel like it can be useful to experiment and try them out. Even after you know there are conflicts. It can help you understand your main art better, if you can figure out what about the new art does not mix with it. And can help you practice your art by having to practice it in unusual/non-optimal stances.

 

[skribs]

Sure, I am well aware that punching is part of TKD. I am not aware that punching in TKD is done similar to boxing.

At the very least, we use both hands to punch, which OP said he can't do in his stance.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Of course every case is unique. Mixing them does not seem to be working for @Ivan.

I didn't see anything that resembled the Philly Shell. He was too busy punching and kicking, transitioning from forward to side stances as he was coming in and out of attacks and defenses.

I also notice that he did a lot of round house kicks that were is torso was forward facing. It wasn't side facing very often. It changed depending on the competition he was in. He was doing a lot of what I was recommending to @Ivan. Jabs from the forward facing stance followed by kicks. If he wants to use the Philly Shell then he'll definitely need to learn how to fight in something other than side stance and all of them will have to flow through the transitions like water.

If I were to use the Philly Shell I would pick a kung fu stance that is similar to the boxing stance that is used with the Philly Stance and start from there in terms of blending. Somethings just don't go together like a philly shell and a cat stance.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Seems to me that people sometimes try to cram a square peg into a round hole. Often what gets mixed is forced, and there is some kind of conflict going on.

I see this often. Then they wonder why it doesn't work. Answer: "Square peg. Round Hole" No matter how much I want to make it work. This stance is not going to work for my Big Jow Ga punches

I can use this stance for some other Jow Ga techniques, but not with the big punches.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Even then, I feel like it can be useful to experiment and try them out. Even after you know there are conflicts. It can help you understand your main art better, if you can figure out what about the new art does not mix with it. And can help you practice your art by having to practice it in unusual/non-optimal stances.

And you will get a green check for this statement. In my opinion it's better to experiment. It's really the only way one can have an intimate understanding for structure and mixing different things up. My entire training is based off this " I should be able to do kung fu from any position." I shouldn't have to "reset" into a particular stance or position. The down side to this logic is that there's a lot of experimentation going on. The upside to this logic is that there's a lot of experimentation going on. Mistakes too lol

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Thanks.

Ive not trained TKD nor boxing, so I don’t honestly know.

I do stand by my position that some things do not mix well. Seems to me that people sometimes try to cram a square peg into a round hole. Often what gets mixed is forced, and there is some kind of conflict going on.

That may be the case here, and certainly my it could just be the particular stance.

My point really is that people ought to consider whether or not there are conflicts, when they try to mix something.

I think some of that depends on how you view arts. My view is pretty loose, so arts can "shift" to work together. That's an advantage in a way, but it probably also means I don't quite "get" some of the principles in some systems.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The

- wrestling with strong side forward, use leading arm to clean the entering path, and
- boxing with strong side backward, use strong back hand to knock down,

do not mix well.

Yet, there are folks in MMA who've merged the two. They just don't see those two principles as primary to the systems (at least not both of them).

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think some of that depends on how you view arts. My view is pretty loose, so arts can "shift" to work together. That's an advantage in a way, but it probably also means I don't quite "get" some of the principles in some systems.

You get it. Try to integrate the big windmill like punches that I do with your system and you'll spot the complications and conflict of structure right away. There are Jow Ga techniques that you could integrate, it's just that particular punch is going to be a no go.

There's not wrong with it not fitting. Not everything is supposed to fit.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Yet, there are folks in MMA who've merged the two. They just don't see those two principles as primary to the systems (at least not both of them).

How do they solve that problem?

One of my students who is a right hand person. he always puts his left side forward during striking. All my wrestling training are right side forward. He either has to give up his

- back right major hand knock down power, or
- front right major hand longer reach.

 

[CB Jones]

or he has to give up his right hand longer reach

Why does his right hand have a longer reach?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Why does his right hand have a longer reach?

If you are a right hand person, your right hand is more skillful than your left hand. When you put your right side forward, your right hand will have longer reach than your left hand has. In wrestling, you want to put your stronger weapon as close to your opponent as you can.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

How do they solve that problem?

One of my students who is a right hand person. he always puts his left side forward during striking. All my wrestling training are right side forward. He either has to give up his

- back right major hand knock down power, or
- front right major hand longer reach.

You can switch feet. It doesn't even have to be a "switch", just step through with your back foot for when you want to do a takedown.

Or southpaw the striking.

 

[skribs]

You can switch feet. It doesn't even have to be a "switch", just step through with your back foot for when you want to do a takedown.

Or southpaw the striking.

TKD and HKD footwork both work like this. For example, if we're boxing in orthodox stance, I will step behind you with my right leg to execute a sweep.

 

[Flying Crane]

You get it. Try to integrate the big windmill like punches that I do with your system and you'll spot the complications and conflict of structure right away. There are Jow Ga techniques that you could integrate, it's just that particular punch is going to be a no go.

There's not wrong with it not fitting. Not everything is supposed to fit.

Exactly. It would be inaccurate to say that nothing from a particular system could integrate with another system. But definitely elements that won’t integrate, up to and including the fundamental approach to how a technique is done. It is possible that there are simply two different types of engines.

You can’t just drop an electric motor into a gas powered car. That car would need to be massively rebuilt before it would work. But maybe you could swap out the air conditioner.

Maybe you could swap the brakes. Maybe not.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You can switch feet. It doesn't even have to be a "switch", just step through with your back foot for when you want to do a takedown.

The issue is this will add 1 extra step in your move. It may make 1 into 1,2 or 1,2 into 1,2,3.

In the following clip, if you have right leg forward, you can hop in with 1 move to take your opponent down. If you have left leg forward, your extra step will slow down your attack.

 

[skribs]

The issue is this will add 1 extra step in your move. It may make 1 into 1,2 or 1,2 into 1,2,3.

In the following clip, if you have right leg forward, you can hop in with 1 move to take your opponent down. If you have left leg forward, your extra step will slow down your attack.

When you slide, you make yourself light. You want to be heavy for grappling.

 

[pdg]

You can’t just drop an electric motor into a gas powered car. That car would need to be massively rebuilt before it would work. But maybe you could swap out the air conditioner.

Maybe you could swap the brakes. Maybe not.

Kind of a bad analogy to refer to the engine...

It's fairly easy to stick an electric motor into an IC car (there was a project a few years ago for an electric land rover, unbolt engine and gearbox, drop in electric gubbins).

Brakes would be just as easy, only complicated if you want regenerative braking.

The air-conditioning would actually be the hardest part to exchange



So, you could make it a better analogy by swapping it around.

Instead of making the car fit the engine, you have to make the ancillaries fit.


The ancillaries are the specific techniques btw - the big stuff is easy, it's the little stuff that make it difficult when you add them up.

 

[Dirty Dog]

You can’t just drop an electric motor into a gas powered car.

Lots of people have done exactly that. It's not nearly as difficult as you seem to think.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

How do they solve that problem?

One of my students who is a right hand person. he always puts his left side forward during striking. All my wrestling training are right side forward. He either has to give up his

- back right major hand knock down power, or
- front right major hand longer reach.

Or you could adjust your wrestling teaching to accommodate that. Or he could adapt to fight southpaw with his striking. Or he could learn both ways, and have the ability to switch as needed, using a forward-facing stance in some situations, as a transition.

Let me give an example. Grappling movement in NGA (and I think this holds true for Aikido, but not absolutely in either) much prefers a squared-up stance and a hanmi stance - the former as the starting point, and the latter for transitions. All of the striking I know favors either a sideways stance, a 45-degree fighting stance, or a front stance (feet parallel, facing opponent, one foot back). There's very little overlap: one or two grappling techniques make use of a front stance at the end, and one kick uses a hanmi.

And that's all within NGA. They blend nicely, in spite of those seeming differences. We depart from the beginner's use of the movements (which require the exact stances they're taught with) and learn the adaptations necessary to use other stances. I can do most of my kicks from at least three different stances with little sacrifice.

Many wrestling moves from standing can be adapted to a more upright stance at the start (we see it in MMA) - it just takes a different transition to the takedown. The leg-forward, low stance is really an adaptation to the ruleset and techniques of wrestling, but isn't a necessary component, though it is pretty much a signature in the sport. Add punches, and it no longer makes sense, so you adapt around that change. Some techniques become far less useful, because you aren't in position for them as often, and your opponent isn't presenting the opportunity as often.