Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun

[dlcox]

And just to clarify, I'm not putting the art down. I know very little about it and it could be a very good art. I'm only pointing out the discrepancies in the history and adding in my perspective as I understand things. I very well could be wrong on all accounts.

 

[LFJ]

"Speck of Dust"?

 

[dlcox]

"Speck of Dust"?

Yi Chen Dashi the Shaolin ancestor who supposedly created Yong Chun and taught it to Zhang Wu (Tan Shou Wu) who then brought it to the Opera.

 

[Eric_H]

I have seen some HFY techniques , if there wasn't "HFY" in title i would be sure that was TWC because thous things I saw were identical with things I have practiced while I was still involved in TWC . Asking for evidence is not equal with "talking trash" . If you have any real evidence to support your story be free to share them .I am open minded and will accept everything that can be proved , if not I will base my opinion on what I know and see , and what see is slightly modified and overtheorized TWC .

You didn't ask for evidence, therefore you *were* talking trash.

I'll bite - AFAIK we've never released any application footage, so what techniques have you seen and where?

 

[Eric_H]

I know some things , private things I will not discuss on a public forum ,which led me to a conclusion that HFY is nothing more than modified TWC . And of course there is obvious similarity or maybe "identical" is better word in techniques , stances, angles of entry , footwork ...
About modified vs "original" story , nobody believe in that any more and I quit TWC because it is incomplete and superficial , whole thing is created to catch certain type of people . Same thing I can see in HFY ,although HFY approach is much more sophisticated and founfder put much more effort to make his story attractive and fit for present time .

So let me get this straight, every time TWC and HFY guys meet face to face we both walk away going "yeah, we're doing pretty different stuff" yet you have some mythical evidence which proves everyone wrong but can't share it because of a non-reason. Who is the Jehova's witness now?

 

[LFJ]

Yi Chen Dashi the Shaolin ancestor who supposedly created Yong Chun and taught it to Zhang Wu (Tan Shou Wu) who then brought it to the Opera.

Yeah, I looked it up. They say it was a 22nd generation disciple of Shaolin in Henan, and that "Yi" denotes the 22nd generation, which is not true based on the Shaolin Caodong sect generation poem the generation names are taken from. Even looking at the generation poem from the Linji sect of Chan, it still wouldn't be "Yi".

Whoever made up their creation myth didn't even know anything about Shaolin, or their ancestor lied about being from Shaolin...

 

[Marnetmar]

I know some things , private things I will not discuss on a public forum

Let me guess, they threatened to kill you if you told anyone? :|

I'm not trying to be rude and I'm not trying to say that HFY isn't a good system, but this response gets old after a while.

 

[geezer]

Who is the Jehovah's witness now?

Boy, I'd almost take that for my new signature line!

Anyway, I find this whole thread kind of amusing, since I don't put too much stock in any of our origin myths. Including those of my lineage. They are not without value as stories that define the character of our art. But neither are they the literal, historical truth. I have not met Eric, but I did spar with a guy who took some private training with him. After a brief time working with Eric, he became much tougher to handle. That tells me that his kung-fu is real. The rest doesn't matter.

 

[Eric_H]

The Hong Guan Hui was founded by Chen Kai He and Li Wen Mao. Chen Kai He was the leader of the Guangdong Tian Di Hui and Li Wen Mao was a Yong Chun ancestor. In fact Li Wen Mao was a practitioner of Yong Chun Bai He Quan and a member of the Opera. He practiced a Sanshi method of Yong Chun Bai He Quan, which is believed to be the same method as taught to Liang Yi Dai (one of Liang Zan's teachers). Li Wen Mao was the leader/founder of the Hong Guan Hui (Red Turban Society) who's members originally dressed in elaborate opera costumes and started the "Red Turban Rebellion". Later, some members not being able to afford the elaborate costume, dressed in a red sash, a red bandanna and carried a red pole.

Now this is not to discredit Hong Hua Yi Yong Chun stylists and their system or lineage, I'm simply stating facts. Li Wen Mao was the leader of the Hong Guan Hui and he was a 3rd generation student of Yong Chun Bai He Quan founder Fang Qiniang. So what he taught to his "Red Turban Army" was Bai He Quan in Sanshi method, the same as taught to the famous Dr. Liang Zan by Liang Yi Dai. It could not have come from "Speck of Dust" and Tan Shou Wu, it came from Fang Qiniang. All legends state that Huang Hua Bao and Liang Zan created the 3 standard forms from the Sanshi material, which came from Fang Qiniang. The term "Red Bandanna Biao" may very well be legitimate and if he was real, he would have been a student/follower of Li Wen Mao, only to later create his version of Hong Hua Yi Yong Chun Quan when he retired in 1874. Huang Hua Bao would have most definitely been his senior, Li Wen Mao was senior to Huang Hua Bao, it also adds credence to the oral legends of "Village" methods of Yong Chun being called "Hong Hua Yi" as it was a method not yet codified. Also, if Huang Hua Bao and Liang Zan are credited with creating the 3 standard forms....How did Hong Guan Biao obtain them? They are not listed in the ancestry of Hong Hua Yi Yong Chun. If he crossed trained with someone from Huang Hua Bao's lineage why weren't they given credit? Why does no one else practice this art? Not to say it isn't legitimate as far as Yong Chun is concerned just saying that IMO it is simply a modified family style with a suspect history trying to appear, in that ever so grand Chinese fashion, older and more original for marketing purposes.

Hey dlcox, you put out a bunch of interesting history tidbits, so I wanted to make sure I did my homework before I got back to you on this. Li Wen Mao was in fact a leader in the red turban uprising - that does not mean he was a member or a senior of the Hun Gun Wui organization that HFY claims an ancestor from.

The Red Turban rebellion is comparable to more modern history such as the civil right movement in the 1960's in the USA. Li Wen Mao is a figurehead much as Martin Luther King was here. However, there were other groups who were part of the same movement but in a different place (Black Panthers in Oakland, etc) who were independent of one another but considered part of the same struggle. It's from one of those independent cells in a different province that we claim an ancestor, not the organization of Li Wen Mao.

I can't speak to the creation of SNT/CK/BG, but we do have a training set credited to Hung Gun Biu himself which is a training module in between SNT and CK. If it's true, that means that the 3 forms existed as far back as Tahn Sau Ng, because the two lines didn't intermix after that point. Also, it may be not that Wong Wa Bo and Leung Yi Tai invented the forms so much as codified what belonged to each set as far as they knew before passing it on - I've heard conflicting stories on that one as well. As far as why other people don't practice our branch of the art, that horse has already been beaten to death, I'm not going to rehash what can easily be found with a search function.

It's interesting that you subscribe to the White crane as a direct Wing Chun ancestor theory, really the only guy pushing that these days is Hendrik Santos. Even his formerly close associates have brought to light him signing on internet forums under multiple identities to have conversations with himself where he reveals "evidence" that has pretty much always turned out to be falsified. He's forged Kuen Kuit that the Cho family later discredited, had fallings out with the Snake and Crane WC people and multiple other groups. Heck, he even got kicked out of KFO for being full of bologna (which, if you've spent any time over there, is a pretty tremendous accomplishment). So while every history (including my line's) should be up for questioning... just be careful where your information comes from.

 

[Eric_H]

Boy, I'd almost take that for my new signature line!

Anyway, I find this whole thread kind of amusing, since I don't put too much stock in any of our origin myths. Including those of my lineage. They are not without value as stories that define the character of our art. But neither are they the literal, historical truth. I have not met Eric, but I did spar with a guy who took some private training with him. After a brief time working with Eric, he became much tougher to handle. That tells me that his kung-fu is real. The rest doesn't matter.

Haha, I miss that guy, he was the only reliable Wing Chun student I ever had in Phoenix!

 

[Eric_H]

I have heard that the term "Hung Fa Yi" was used by several offshoot branches of "Village" Wing Chun methods employed during the Taiping rebellion. It draws "Purity" into question but certainly not "Legitimacy".

There are also Hung Fa Kuen Systems that have nothing to do with Hung Fa Yi or Wing Chun at all, further complicating historical tracing =/

 

[zuti car]

So let me get this straight, every time TWC and HFY guys meet face to face we both walk away going "yeah, we're doing pretty different stuff" yet you have some mythical evidence which proves everyone wrong but can't share it because of a non-reason. Who is the Jehova's witness now?

I am not TWC guy and I do not claim anything , just asking questions

 

[zuti car]

Let me guess, they threatened to kill you if you told anyone? :|

I'm not trying to be rude and I'm not trying to say that HFY isn't a good system, but this response gets old after a while.

Actually, at the time TWC guys threatened to kill me because I was the only voice against their "original " story in my country and at time there was only one club which was not practicing TWC , one among maybe 50 or 60 clubs.
About HFY what I can see and what know it is modified TWC . All these theories borrowed from 20 th century physics and "histories' will not change that . I do not say it is bad ,it is possible that it is much better than TWC now .

 

[zuti car]

You didn't ask for evidence, therefore you *were* talking trash.

I'll bite - AFAIK we've never released any application footage, so what techniques have you seen and where?

You may write "hfy" in the title but i still see twc . All these things are still practiced in Serbia in almost all TWC clubs . To be honest this is older version of TWC and i know that because I have practiced that version .

 

[Marnetmar]

Actually, at the time TWC guys threatened to kill me because I was the only voice against their "original " story.

Sounds your everyday bunch of TWC guys.

 

[Eric_H]

Actually, at the time TWC guys threatened to kill me because I was the only voice against their "original " story in my country

That is a level of insanity I can not fathom. No one in our organization has ever required me to believe anything, however I have had dealings with some elements that do operate that way. I am sorry you had such an experience.

 

[Eric_H]

You may write "hfy" in the title but i still see twc . All these things are still practiced in Serbia in almost all TWC clubs . To be honest this is older version of TWC and i know that because I have practiced that version .

I see some differences that what is presented in TWC (not trying to get to the blindside as a big one). But I also haven't seen more than some videos from Phil Redmond and a few old ones featuring GM Cheung. Are you saying you were taught to do Biu Sao against a hook punch differently than them?

Take the first clip with a grain of salt as the instructor in the video is a teacher of other kung fu styles and may not have been a great representation the HFY of doing things when it was filmed. I'm sure he would look at that video today, after my teacher's most recent trip down there, and roll his eyes the way I do at some of my old footage.

We've got some clips that have been in limbo forever coming from HFY HQ, I'll be interested to see if your opinion changes when they are released.

 

[zuti car]

That is a level of insanity I can not fathom. No one in our organization has ever required me to believe anything, however I have had dealings with some elements that do operate that way. I am sorry you had such an experience.

I had similar experiences not only because I proved william's story false but also because I do not believe in "histories" do not worship "grandmaster" , I am always searching for evidence and because of that approach I have exposed may things people still believe as false , as nothing more as a myth or simple marketing strategy.On the other hand , many kung fu people taking their arts too seriously , and for not a small number of them kung fu is a form of surrogate religion . A lot of them are caught in the "original , the best style, the oldest style" stories like the style it self makes them better from all other kung fu practitioners. When I told my point view many of them got angry and they tried to intimidate me , I am receiving threats all the time and offensive and derogatory mails on daily bases . A lot of other stuff happened as well , but it is ok , I found it interestnig what re people prepare to do in order to defend their believes even when they face the facts . Of course no one ever tried to do anything for real because it would be interesting to see how kung fu works against a hunting rifle ...

 

[zuti car]

I see some differences that what is presented in TWC (not trying to get to the blindside as a big one). But I also haven't seen more than some videos from Phil Redmond and a few old ones featuring GM Cheung. Are you saying you were taught to do Biu Sao against a hook punch differently than them?

Take the first clip with a grain of salt as the instructor in the video is a teacher of other kung fu styles and may not have been a great representation the HFY of doing things when it was filmed. I'm sure he would look at that video today, after my teacher's most recent trip down there, and roll his eyes the way I do at some of my old footage.

We've got some clips that have been in limbo forever coming from HFY HQ, I'll be interested to see if your opinion changes when they are released.

I don't know what Redmond had been taught , what I know is that TWC changed over time . I k ow this because there are obvious differences from , let's say what Redmond is doing now and what some people who learned TWC in the early 1990 are doing . All that is different from what William's younger brother is doing and for example what Bob Gabershek (one of the first william's students) is doing . It would take too much time explain the differences but all these people are doing same art but there are major differences in approach and even in theory and basic principles .
stuff on thous videos may be different from TWC now but what I see is TWC from 1990 's

 

[Jake104]

Haha, I miss that guy, he was the only reliable Wing Chun student I ever had in Phoenix!

I heard of that guy, the guy in which you speak of. He was a legendary fighter. He won many fights with only having to use his pinkys.