How would a high level Tai Chi martial artist do against a high level MMA?

[Steve]

I'm judging it on the fact that you had two guys grappling, and one guy wasn't able to stop or counter leg takedowns, something which is fairly elementary in wrestling and grappling in general. It seems bizarre that you would use the excuse that he was training for a competition. Why would you train for a competition that didn't allow leg attacks with a guy who is going to use leg attacks?

It's clear that this is a friendly sparring session to the takedown only. It's a terrific example of how solid taichi can be when trained well and performed by an experienced practitioner.

I can understand where you're coming from, Hanzou, in that it doesn't seem like the legs were declared off limits for this sparring session and the tai chi guy did seem to have some trouble with that. But, you're drawing some tenuous conclusions.

Personally, I think it's a great thing that he's willing to open up his toolkit and work out with guys like Marcelo Garcia, and while he might not have the experience right now, he's certainly doing the right hting, which is to be willing to expose his weaknesses in order to improve. I have nothing but respect for that.

 

[Drose427]

I'm judging it on the fact that you had two guys grappling, and one guy wasn't able to stop or counter leg takedowns, something which is fairly elementary in wrestling and grappling in general. It seems bizarre that you would use the excuse that he was training for a competition. Why would you train for a competition that didn't allow leg attacks with a guy who is going to use leg attacks?

Because hes still a world class level grappler maybe?

Should MMA guys not work with world class Judo students or Gi BJJ students at their schools because they'll inevitably take advantage of their opponents gi whereas the MMA guys couldnt in the ring?

That's a pretty silly argument considering that it was a grappling match. In grappling the legs are always fair game, which makes it strange that the Tai Chi exponent didn't utilize any counters for those attacks. For any grappler, its pretty common sense that if you can't push around a guy above the hips, you start going for the legs. Hell, that's what I use against Judo guys, since they're almost impossible to throw.

Also, Bjj practitioners have already established that they can deal with strikers.

No, legs are not always fair game. Tony listed a couple different competitions where they are not, and in Chens competitions they are not.

As for your BJJ comment,

nobody was questioning his BJJ ability against a striker so Idk why you felt the need to imply "BJJ dominance"

Their point was could Chen and Marcelo were clearly grappling in a friendly sporting environment (not a challenge) and were Chen allowed to grapple and strike, it could have been a very different video.

Or not.

The point was it was never meant to be a realistic or serious match and theres no reason to treat it as such.

 

[Dirty Dog]

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[Hanzou]

Is Greco-Roman wrestling not considered grappling? How about judo under the new rules which don't allow grabbing the legs? Is that not grappling either?

Where did I say that the Tuisho wasn't grappling? I was simply pointing out how erroneous FC's comparison was since both men were clearly engaged in a grappling contest.

I very much doubt he considered this bout with Marcelo to be preparation for any sort of competition. The two were obviously just having a good time trying stuff out with each other and sharing a learning experience as martial artists. It just so happens that Mr. Chen's background is in a form of grappling competition which (like Greco-Roman or the modern judo ruleset) does not allow grabbing the legs.

I didn't say that either, Xue did.

 

[Hanzou]

Because hes still a world class level grappler maybe?

Should MMA guys not work with world class Judo students or Gi BJJ students at their schools because they'll inevitably take advantage of their opponents gi whereas the MMA guys couldnt in the ring?

If your goal is to increase your chances of winning a competition with a very specific rule set, no. That would be like me training with a boxer for a Bjj competition.

No, legs are not always fair game. Tony listed a couple different competitions where they are not, and in Chens competitions they are not.

If legs weren't fair game, why could Garcia use them and not Chen? Garcia's ability to attack the legs gave him a strong advantage, and was frankly a big hole in Chen's game.

As for your BJJ comment,

nobody was questioning his BJJ ability against a striker so Idk why you felt the need to imply "BJJ dominance"

Did you read FC's response?

Their point was could Chen and Marcelo were clearly grappling in a friendly sporting environment (not a challenge) and were Chen allowed to grapple and strike, it could have been a very different video.

Chen was allowed to grapple though, and again the lack of defenses against leg attacks was quite obvious. Again, great top defense, but no grappler worth their salt is going to stay there if they're not making headway.

Or not.

The point was it was never meant to be a realistic or serious match and theres no reason to treat it as such.

Where did I say it was a serious match? Im just pointing out the hole in Tuisho's takedown defenses. Frankly, I suspected it as soon as I saw the "Tai Chi vs Wrestling" vid.

 

[Drose427]

If your goal is to increase your chances of winning a competition with a very specific rule set, no. That would be like me training with a boxer for a Bjj competition.



If legs weren't fair game, why could Garcia use them and not Chen? Garcia's ability to attack the legs gave him a strong advantage, and was frankly a big hole in Chen's game.



Did you read FC's response?



Chen was allowed to grapple though, and again the lack of defenses against leg attacks was quite obvious. Again, great top defense, but no grappler worth their salt is going to stay there if they're not making headway.




Where did I say it was a serious match? Im just pointing out the hole in Tuisho's takedown defenses. Frankly, I suspected it as soon as I saw the "Tai Chi vs Wrestling" vid.

Chen most likely didnt use them because he cant in his comps, but being a friendly session saw no reason to limit his opponent. Walking in to any boxing/Kickboxing gym you'll see boxers spar with kickboxers and have no issue with them throwing kicks, while not throwing any of their own.

And I did read FC's response and again, he wasnt disparaging BJJ whatsoever.

Chen was grappling, within the confines of his style and rules of his competitions.

 

[Hanzou]

It's clear that this is a friendly sparring session to the takedown only. It's a terrific example of how solid taichi can be when trained well and performed by an experienced practitioner.

I can understand where you're coming from, Hanzou, in that it doesn't seem like the legs were declared off limits for this sparring session and the tai chi guy did seem to have some trouble with that. But, you're drawing some tenuous conclusions.

Personally, I think it's a great thing that he's willing to open up his toolkit and work out with guys like Marcelo Garcia, and while he might not have the experience right now, he's certainly doing the right hting, which is to be willing to expose his weaknesses in order to improve. I have nothing but respect for that.

I agree with all of that. The only conclusions I'm drawing is that Tuisho lacks defense against leg attacks due to the Tai Chi exponent's clear skill in stopping Marcelo from undercooking or arm dragging him. Yet against Picks and DLTs, nada.

 

[Drose427]

I agree with all of that. The only conclusions I'm drawing is that Tuisho lacks defense against leg attacks due to the Tai Chi exponent's clear skill in stopping Marcelo from undercooking or arm dragging him. Yet against Picks and DLTs, nada.

So one practitioner (who regularly competes in a style where leg picks are illegal) is representative of a style?

 

[Steve]

So one practitioner (who regularly competes in a style where leg picks are illegal) is representative of a style?

This. ^^^

God help the reputation of bjj if my skills are the sole measure of efficacy.

 

[Hanzou]

Chen most likely didnt use them because he cant in his comps, but being a friendly session saw no reason to limit his opponent. Walking in to any boxing/Kickboxing gym you'll see boxers spar with kickboxers and have no issue with them throwing kicks, while not throwing any of their own.

Yeah, because a boxer wouldn't be as proficient in kicking as a kick boxer.

And I did read FC's response and again, he wasnt disparaging BJJ whatsoever.

He was stating that a Bjj exponent would be lacking against a striking opponent, just like Chen was lacking against an opponent who attacked his legs. Not seeming to realize that Bjj offers quite a bit of training against striking opponents.

Chen was grappling, within the confines of his style and rules of his competitions.

More likely within the confines of his knowledge and experience. His training simply didn't offer the necessary solutions on how to counter that line of attack. The same issue exists in modern Judo due to decades of rule enforcement.

 

[Drose427]

Yeah, because a boxer wouldn't be as proficient in kicking as a kick boxer.



He was stating that a Bjj exponent would be lacking against a striking opponent, just like Chen was lacking against an opponent who attacked his legs. Not seeming to realize that Bjj offers quite a bit of training against striking opponents.



More likely within the confines of his knowledge and experience. His training simply didn't offer the necessary solutions on how to counter that line of attack. The same issue exists in modern Judo due to decades of rule enforcement.

Theres also all the guys who dont throw leg kicks (because they arent allowed in their style or comps) and have no issue with the sparring partners doing it

Or the kickboxers who let MT guys throw elbows and backfists without doing so themselves.

Training is training, and if you're training for a specific comp youre going to do so within the rules of that comp regardless of who you're working with.

No, FC was saying where Chen allowed to grapple and strike it could have affected the outcome, not that any BJJ practitioner is going to be lacking against a striking opponent. You drew that conclusion on your own

Oh are you an expert on Chens training now? Or Tai Chi in general? I thought you trained MT and BJJ

Modern Judo has a lot of the same counters in wrestling for ankle pics and shots (Sprawling, high legs, etc) so Im not sure why you're using it as an example, other than they dont regularly use them.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Where did I say that the Tuisho wasn't grappling?

That's a pretty silly argument considering that it was a grappling match. In grappling the legs are always fair game, which makes it strange that the Tai Chi exponent didn't utilize any counters for those attacks.

Either I'm seriously misunderstanding your comments or you're seriously misunderstanding mine.

You made the claim that in grappling matches leg attacks are always allowed. I simply pointed out that there are many forms of grappling competition (including the one Mr. Chen practices) where they are not.

There's nothing strange about the fact that someone who is primarily experienced in a more restrictive rule set will take a while to adjust to sparring under a more open rule set against someone who is used to using the additional techniques allowed in that context. Suppose the video showed a boxer sparring with a Muay Thai practitioner. Would you be saying "in striking, kicks and knees are always fair game, which makes it strange that the boxer didn't have any counters ready for those leg kicks and those knees in the clinch"?

 

[Flying Crane]

That's a pretty silly argument considering that it was a grappling match. In grappling the legs are always fair game, which makes it strange that the Tai Chi exponent didn't utilize any counters for those attacks. For any grappler, its pretty common sense that if you can't push around a guy above the hips, you start going for the legs. Hell, that's what I use against Judo guys, since they're almost impossible to throw.

Also, Bjj practitioners have already established that they can deal with strikers.

 

[Hanzou]

Either I'm seriously misunderstanding your comments or you're seriously misunderstanding mine.

You made the claim that in grappling matches leg attacks are always allowed. I simply pointed out that there are many forms of grappling competition (including the one Mr. Chen practices) where they are not.

I'm thinking that the confusion lies in my use of "match" instead of "friendly sparring"? When I said match, I wasn't talking about competition, I was talking about two grapplers rolling with each other just like those two were.

There's nothing strange about the fact that someone who is primarily experienced in a more restrictive rule set will take a while to adjust to sparring under a more open rule set against someone who is used to using the additional techniques allowed in that context. Suppose the video showed a boxer sparring with a Muay Thai practitioner. Would you be saying "in striking, kicks and knees are always fair game, which makes it strange that the boxer didn't have any counters ready for those leg kicks and those knees in the clinch"?

I would say that in a friendly spar between two strikers, everything is fair game.

I wouldn't say that the lack of kicks, kees, etc. is strange in boxing, because I know the limits of boxing. I was under the impression that Tuisho was a complete grappling system. If I'm mistaken, then I apologize.

 

[Flying Crane]

Go back and re-read the part where i said, and yes, the striking could have gone both ways.

Hanzou is becoming famous for his comic relief.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I'm judging it on the fact that you had two guys grappling, and one guy wasn't able to stop or counter leg takedowns, something which is fairly elementary in wrestling and grappling in general. It seems bizarre that you would use the excuse that he was training for a competition. Why would you train for a competition that didn't allow leg attacks with a guy who is going to use leg attacks?

First it is not an excuse and second I do not write the rules for tuishou competitions, third you obviously don't know what those rules are nor do you have the slightest idea what tuishou is.

Its bizarre that you think that a guy that trains tuishou competitions should train leg attacks when he is not going to be allowed to use then against a guy who also does not train leg attacks and will not use them since they are not allowed in a tuishou competition. It is also bizarre that you just don't seem to understand what was going on in that video and it is equally bizarre that you seem to think everything is wrestling. It is also bizarre that you seemed to absolutely ignore the rest of what I posted on tuishou that explained the differences

 

[Hanzou]

First it is not an excuse and second I do not write the rules for tuishou competitions, third you obviously don't know what those rules are nor do you have the slightest idea what tuishou is.

Except that video wasn't a Tuisho competition, it was a friendly roll between two grapplers.

Again, if Tuisho isn't a complete grappling system then my apologies for thinking it was.

 

[mograph]

Again, if Tuisho(u) isn't a complete grappling system then my apologies for thinking it was.

It could be described as pre-grappling, I suppose. Once the opponent's balance is upset and he goes down or out of a space, the point is awarded. It's not a complete system at all; it's a very limited means of testing structure and balance. Check this out:

"The purpose of pushing hands is to train our listening ability, sensitivity, reaction speed and in methods of applying techniques to disrupt our opponent's balance. "

Pushing hands tai chi

 

[Hanzou]

Yang Taiji vs Bjj:

 

[mograph]

Clearly, that's a high-level Tai Chi martial artist. I guess this is settled, then.

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