What are the main differences between Xingyiquan, T'ai chi ch'uan, Baguazhang, Bak Mei and Bājíquán

[cpthindsight]

What are they each characterized by?

Also how many sub sets of each are there? (For example you can get Chen style T'ai Chi and so on.)

 

[Xue Sheng]

That is a REAL big question

Xingyiquan
Taijiquan
Baguazhang
Bak Mei
Bājíquán

And as for Taijiquan, Baguzhang and Xingyiquan those headers if you will and under those you get the various styles

Historically speaking Chen Taijiquan is the first, Shanxi Xingyiquan is the first and as for Bagua you get a whole lot really close together and I am not sure which one was first but the creator of Baguazhang was Dong Haichuan and his first students were Yin Fu, Ma Gui, Cheng Tinghua, and Liang Zhenpu

This is from a very old post of mine The Five Taijiquan Families Plus One MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community

I also have a lot of old posts out there about Xingyiquan as well you might be interested in

 

[mograph]

A teacher of mine related this old heuristic about taijiquan, xingyiquan and baguazhang: respectively, each lets you fight as a rubber ball, an iron bar (or a wrecking ball) or a spinning top.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I've categorized them in these two ways

Taiji has a plethora of patience
Bagua has an average amount of patience
Xingyi has no patience

Also

Taiji > Defense is defense and defense is attack
Bagua > Defense is defense and attack is attack
XIngyi > Attack is defense and attack is attack

 

[mograph]

Like the first triad there, Xue. Succinct.
The second is like a koan! Gotta reflect on it!

... okay, I think I have it. If A is B and C is D, you apply A to achieve B and apply C to achieve D?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Taiji > Defense is defense and defense is attack ...

To counter a "hip throw" or to counter a "single leg" is always easier than to apply a "hip throw" or to apply a "single leg". To borrow your opponent's force B, add your own force A will achieve A + B > A. That's common sense and there is no argument there.

But what if your opponent is

- not attacking,
- committing on anything, and
- waiting for you to make the 1st move?

Of course you can say that if your opponent doesn't attack you, there will be no fight, the world will be so peaceful and lovely.

What if some Taiji master kills your love one while you and your love one are in Amazon jungle where you can't depend on any law to help you? Assume you are also a Taiji master and want to kill your opponent to revenge for your dead love one? How are you going to start a fight and kill him if both you and your opponent are playing defense and waiting for the other person to make the first move?

IMO, the idea of "defense is attack" has a hole in it. With this kind of attitude, you may develop some good counters to against "hip throw" or "single leg", but the attacking techniques such as "hip throw", or "single leg" will never be developed in your toolbox in the first place.

 

[Xue Sheng]

To counter a "hip throw" or to counter a "single leg" is always easier than to apply a "hip throw" or to apply a "single leg". To borrow your opponent's force B, add your own force A will achieve A + B > A. That's common sense and there is no argument there.

But what if your opponent is

- not attacking,
- committing on anything, and
- waiting for you to make the 1st move?

Of course you can say that if your opponent doesn't attack you, there will be no fight, the world will be so peaceful and lovely.

What if some Taiji master kills your love one while you and your love one are in Amazon jungle where you can't depend on any law to help you? Assume you are also a Taiji master and want to kill your opponent to revenge for your dead love one? How are you going to start a fight and kill him if both you and your opponent are playing defense and waiting for the other person to make the first move?

IMO, the idea of "defense is attack" has a hole in it. With this kind of attitude, you may develop some good counters to against "hip throw" or "single leg", but the attacking techniques such as "hip throw", or "single leg" will never be developed in your toolbox in the first place.

You don't understand taijiquan at all.

 

[cpthindsight]

You don't understand taijiquan at all.

cmon now that is uncalled for, why cant we be nice to each other and help each other learn? why does it need to be ego wars harsh put downs and trolling, didnt your instructor teach you respect honor and decency?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You don't understand taijiquan at all.

Not too long ago, Hendrik made similar comment to you as you have just made to me. Please don't redirect his "negative energy" toward me.

So, take back your comment on me in term of internal Art and qigong. You obviously is not in the level of involvement and has the experience. What is the point to mislead western world on the field you are not expert in?

 

[mograph]

Of course you can say that if your opponent doesn't attack you, there will be no fight, the world will be so peaceful and lovely.

Using that framing, there's always the possibility of feinting, then defending against the response.

Or, of course, the taijiquan practitioner could just attack.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Not too long ago, Hendrik made similar comment to you as you have just made to me. Please don't redirect his "negative energy" toward me.

cmon now that is uncalled for, why cant we be nice to each other and help each other learn? why does it need to be ego wars harsh put downs and trolling, didnt your instructor teach you respect honor and decency?

Folks, there is no ego involved here, and I have had about enough of the lets all play nice no matter how much someone may be wrong attitude that is starting to pop up here and if truth is making one a troll then things are really way to far gone don't you think. And I will say the same thing here I said to Hendrik, I am not an expert nor have I ever professed to be one.

Also I was not being negative I was being truthful and it is nothing I have not said to Kung Fu Wang before if you take it as negative I apologize but it was simply a statement of fact based on my Taiji background and the questions presented. If the truth is a harsh put down and trolling so be it. I do think Kung Fu Wang is a good martial artist but based on previous posts, youtube videos and interactions and the questions presented here I simply do not think he understands taijiquan, sorry.

But if it makes you happy I will give you a different answer, you took issue with this

Taiji > Defense is defense and defense is attack

Taiji does not attack, per say, it defends and by that defense it finds ways to attack, or to be more to the point the opponent shows you where to attack.

To counter a "hip throw" or to counter a "single leg" is always easier than to apply a "hip throw" or to apply a "single leg". To borrow your opponent's force B, add your own force A will achieve A + B > A. That's common sense and there is no argument there.

Yes there is argument there if you are talking taijiquan, there is no if they do A I do B scenario, it all depends on what amount and direction the force is coming form. There is no force fights force in Taijiquan, that is why it takes so darn long to learn to apply properly.

But what if your opponent is

- not attacking,
- committing on anything, and
- waiting for you to make the 1st move?

Same answer as above, there is no If he does A I do B in taijiquan, all depends on what amount and direction the force is coming form. Thre is no force vs force in taijiquan. If you feel force form a Taiji person it is generally one of 2 things. 1) they have no clue abot taijiquan (2) they are very good at taijiquan and it is a fake to get you to do something stupid and commit.

Of course you can say that if your opponent doesn't attack you, there will be no fight, the world will be so peaceful and lovely.

I could also say if the person does not attack you he/she is not an opponent so why am I attacking them?

What if some Taiji master kills your love one while you and your love one are in Amazon jungle where you can't depend on any law to help you? Assume you are also a Taiji master and want to kill your opponent to revenge for your dead love one? How are you going to start a fight and kill him if both you and your opponent are playing defense and waiting for the other person to make the first move?

Sorry but that is just plain silly. You are setting up highly emotional senerios that go to more of a moral uissue than a Taiji issue and absolutely none of that has anything to do with "Defense is defense and defense is attack"

IMO, the idea of "defense is attack" has a hole in it. With this kind of attitude, you may develop some good counters to against "hip throw" or "single leg", but the attacking techniques such as "hip throw", or "single leg" will never be developed in your toolbox in the first place.

You missed the point entirely and seem to be obsessed with a hip throw and I am sorry if that comes off as negative but it is how I feel from where I am sitting. You are coming up with things that have nothing to do with what I typed. I am also use to the occasional negative comment form my sifu when I mess up, however I don't whine about it, I accept it try to look at it differently and move on.

It is simply the difference between taijiquan and external arts like Shuaijiao. You learn how to deal with a hip throw but you never look at any hip throw as being the same thing. You defend and through that defense you attack. Now if that is negative, I'm sorry, but it is the truth based on my training in Taijiquan.

If you want further explanations simply ask for them, unlike Hendrik I will explain, but if you go on the attack form the get go, what do you expect in return?

 

[cpthindsight]

Folks, there is no ego involved here, and I have had about enough of the lets all play nice no matter how much someone may be wrong attitude that is starting to pop up here and if truth is making one a troll then things are really way to far gone don't you think. And I will say the same thing here I said to Hendrik, I am not an expert nor have I ever professed to be one.

Also I was not being negative I was being truthful and it is nothing I have not said to Kung Fu Wang before if you take it as negative I apologize but it was simply a statement of fact based on my Taiji background and the questions presented. If the truth is a harsh put down and trolling so be it. I do think Kung Fu Wang is a good martial artist but based on previous posts, youtube videos and interactions and the questions presented here I simply do not think he understands taijiquan, sorry.

But if it makes you happy I will give you a different answer, you took issue with this



Taiji does not attack, per say, it defends and by that defense it finds ways to attack, or to be more to the point the opponent shows you where to attack.



Yes there is argument there if you are talking taijiquan, there is no if they do A I do B scenario, it all depends on what amount and direction the force is coming form. There is no force fights force in Taijiquan, that is why it takes so darn long to learn to apply properly.



Same answer as above, there is no If he does A I do B in taijiquan, all depends on what amount and direction the force is coming form. Thre is no force vs force in taijiquan. If you feel force form a Taiji person it is generally one of 2 things. 1) they have no clue abot taijiquan (2) they are very good at taijiquan and it is a fake to get you to do something stupid and commit.



I could also say if the person does not attack you he/she is not an opponent so why am I attacking them?



Sorry but that is just plain silly. You are setting up highly emotional senerios that go to more of a moral uissue than a Taiji issue and absolutely none of that has anything to do with "Defense is defense and defense is attack"



You missed the point entirely and seem to be obsessed with a hip throw and I am sorry if that comes off as negative but it is how I feel from where I am sitting. You are coming up with things that have nothing to do with what I typed. I am also use to the occasional negative comment form my sifu when I mess up, however I don't whine about it, I accept it try to look at it differently and move on.

It is simply the difference between taijiquan and external arts like Shuaijiao. You learn how to deal with a hip throw but you never look at any hip throw as being the same thing. You defend and through that defense you attack. Now if that is negative, I'm sorry, but it is the truth based on my training in Taijiquan.

If you want further explanations simply ask for them, unlike Hendrik I will explain, but if you go on the attack form the get go, what do you expect in return?

Instead of saying, you know nothing about tai chi, you could have said I dont wish to correct you but I sincerely believe you are incorrect, here is why, what do you think about that?

See one comes off as offensive and immature, the other comes off as polite and mature.

What do you think about that pal?

 

[Xue Sheng]

and "What do you think of that pal?" is not offensive or immature.... and the original post by Kung Fu Wang that started this was not confrontational.... okie dokie

Please do not lecture me, I am not in the mood to be lectured by one half my age.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Taiji does not attack,

I'm simply point out that I don't agree with you on the above statement. There is no need to get personal. In your style of Taiji, you may not attack. In my style of Taiji, the "Chang style Taiji - founder by GM Chang Tung Sheng", we do attack.

For example, when you apply "diagonal fly", you can

- redirect your opponent's leading arm,
- step in, and
- take him down.

You don't have to wait for your opponent to attack you first.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Seen that video before, and this is my Shigong

And I trained a bit with this guy too....but I do not call myself his student, my lineage is to the above video

Now that that's out of the way... I said it does not attack per say, but It finds a way to attack based on the opponent's force so.....Define attack... And the biggest issue is force against force this would make it not Taiji by 2 different styles I have trained.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I said it does not attack per say, but It finds a way to attack based on the opponent's force so.....Define attack... And the biggest issue is force against force this would make it not Taiji by 2 different styles I have trained.

The definition of "attack" to me mean you move in and do whatever that you want to do. You don't have to wait for your opponent to do anything. I have trained Taiji for 60 years by now (I started my Taiji training when I was 7). I do know that my "aggressive Taiji nature - act like a tiger and eat my opponent alive" may upset other Taiji people.

In the

- striking art, you want to create a "head on collision" that your fist meets your opponent's face, that's 100% force against force.
- throwing art, you want to create a "rear end collision" that you move the same direction as your opponent is moving, that's borrow force.

Unless in your opinion that Taiji is a "pure throwing art". As long as Taiji includes the striking art, the force against force (such a your fist meet your opponent's face) has to be part of the Taiji principle.

Here is an example that you use Taiji "diagonal fly" to attack. Since your opponent is not moving and you move in, it's not force against force but you just use your own force because you have no force to borrow from your opponent.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Yup, again nothing new to me, and there are more applications to diagonal flying than just that. Been doing Taiji for over 20 years, know apps, trained a lot of the 13 postures too (Kao and Zhou are striking) and it is more than a throwing art; striking, qinna and shuaijiao are all part of taijiquan and you will find that in Yang and Chen. You will also find it in Wu (Northern and Southern) Wu/Hao, Sun too, it is just I have very little to no experience with Wu, Wu/Hao and Sun so I do not use them as my examples.

We are not understanding each other here and I will blame myself for not being clear, and that is how I am going to leave it.

 

[K-man]

and "What do you think of that pal?" is not offensive or immature.... and the original post by Kung Fu Wang that started this was not confrontational.... okie dokie

Please do not lecture me, I am not in the mood to be lectured by one half my age.

Xue, this guy is more like a quarter of your age!

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue, this guy is more like a quarter of your age!

I figured that out a few hours later, I was going by his claimed age in his profile. He, if it is a he, must lead a rather sad and pathetic life if he/she does this for entertainment...

 

[mograph]

He, if it is a he, must lead a rather sad and pathetic life if he/she does this for entertainment...

Every now and then, the internet creeps into the forum.