How would a high level Tai Chi martial artist do against a high level MMA?

[mograph]

Apologies for the grammar sophistry before. How about some slapping around?

Link: Tai chi tuishou for striking and mid range grappling - Tai Chi Central

 

[mograph]

We could all stand to lighten up. Me included.

Now there's a martial artist. Respect.

 

[Flying Crane]

The bit where you need to test against resisting guys and test against other systems. In an environment where you can fail and grow from the experience.

That way when there is a method of attack that represents kryptonite to your superman you can recognize that and fix it.
Look it is nice for the ego to be Capitan awesome in your own head or in your own school. But if you never take your martial arts out of the box and use it it will never grow into something special.

Or is there a reason you cant do taiji and be able to defend leg takedowns?

I'll welcome you to go back and read my earlier post, #162, where I explain what the real purpose of push hands is.

Testing ones skills is another discussion. Whether or not competition is the best way to do it, is another.

 

[Flying Crane]

He got it right when he said the best way to test something outside of walking the streets and beating people down, or dojo storming and beating fellow martial artists down is in a sportive environment.

Chen and Garcia were messing around in a sportive environment. Ideas were exchanged, and both parties came out as friends.

That Bjj white belt who smashed that Taiji practicioner did so in a sportive environment. The only more realistic alternative to that is the Bjj guy going to the Taiji guy's house and beating the crap out of him.

And do you still hold that Mr. Chen is a grappling specialist?

 

[K-man]

Then I would post the clip of the tai chi (taiji?) guy manhandling a wrestler. Or hanging with Marcello.

Then, I would say, you are totally wrong as Flying Crane pointed out in an earlier post where he explained its use.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Testing ones skills is another discussion. Whether or not competition is the best way to do it, is another.

If you have spend a lot of your training time to develop your "single leg", how are you going to test it? IMO, you can test it in the following 2 different ways.

1. full testing (test all your skills) - You can get into a ring or, step on the mat and spar/wrestle for 15 rounds. In this format, you will test all your skills and you are not just test your "single leg" skill. Most people may call this "sport".

2. partial testing (test one of your skills) - You can also set up a "sport format" such as if your opponent's punch or kick can land on your body, your opponent wins that round. For safety, a full powerful knock out is not needed. If you can use your "single leg" to take your opponent down before his punches and kicks can land on your body, you win that round. You test your "single leg" in this format for 100 rounds. You then record your successful ratio and failure ratio. That will be where your "single leg" skill will stand.

Besides these 2 different methods of testing, and also assume that you just meet your opponent from other MA system the first time, what can be the other suitable testing method?

 

[Flying Crane]

If you have spend a lot of your training time to develop your "single leg", how are you going to test it? IMO, you can test it in the following 2 different ways.

1. full testing (test all your skills) - You can get into a ring or, step on the mat and spar/wrestle for 15 rounds. In this format, you will test all your skills and you are not just test your "single leg" skill. Most people may call this "sport".

2. partial testing (test one of your skills) - You can also set up a "sport format" such as if your opponent's punch or kick can land on your body, your opponent wins that round. For safety, a full powerful knock out is not needed. If you can use your "single leg" to take your opponent down before his punches and kicks can land on your body, you win that round. You test your "single leg" in this format for 100 rounds. You then record your successful ratio and failure ratio. That will be where your "single leg" skill will stand.

Besides these 2 different methods of testing, and also assume that you just meet your opponent from other MA system the first time, what can be the other suitable testing method?

I would test any technique with my training partners. Not in any way that you describe.

 

[drop bear]

Then, I would say, you are totally wrong as Flying Crane pointed out in an earlier post where he explained its use.

I am going off the descriptions here. Some people are saying taji is not to be messed with some are saying its a concept. Mabye there is more than one version.

Personally I prefer the more realistic resisted version. Which may be watered down but at least seems to have some merit.

 

[drop bear]

I would test any technique with my training partners. Not in any way that you describe.

And so how do you yes your technique?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I would test any technique with my training partners. Not in any way that you describe.

What method will you use?

In order to test my "rhino guard", I would test it in the following way:

- If my opponent's punch can hit my head or body, he wins that round.
- If I can get into a successful clinch from my "rhino guard" before my opponent can hit me, I win that round.

I would test my "rhino guard" like this for 100 rounds and record my testing result. If you have a good testing method to suggest, I would like to hear and keep my options open.

 

[Flying Crane]

And so how do you yes your technique?

See the following.

 

[Flying Crane]

What method will you use?

In order to test my "rhino guard", I would test it in the following way:

- If my opponent's punch can hit my head or body, he wins that round.
- If I can get into a successful clinch from my "rhino guard" before my opponent can hit me, I win that round.

I would test my "rhino guard" like this for 100 rounds and record my testing result. If you have a good testing method to suggest, I would like to hear and keep my options open.

I work through it with my sifu, classmates, and training partners, as much as we feel is necessary. I would never jump into a competition ring for it, or for any other reason for that matter. I just don't give a rat's *** about competition in any way, shape, or form. By the way: how many times have you jumped into a ring, since you've been advocating it?

And, I sure as **** would never count rounds and tally up a percentage on my techniques. Sorry, but that makes no sense at all.

 

[drop bear]

I work through it with my sifu, classmates, and training partners, as much as we feel is necessary. I would never jump into a competition ring for it, or for any other reason for that matter. I just don't give a rat's *** about competition in any way, shape, or form. By the way: how many times have you jumped into a ring, since you've been advocating it?

And, I sure as **** would never count rounds and tally up a percentage on my techniques. Sorry, but that makes no sense at all.

Worked through as in?

And not in the ting often enough and my martial arts suffers for that lack of exposure.

As does yours.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I work through it with my sifu, classmates, and training partners, as much as we feel is necessary.

Even if you just test your skill against your teacher, classmates, and training partners, you are still using some kind of "sport" format and apply "rules" that both persons will agree.

If you only test your skill within your own MA system, you may not test your skill enough against people from other MA systems. For example,

Without testing your skill against

- BJJ guys, you may never experience the "pull guard" and "jump guard"
- MT guys, you may never experience the "flying knee".
- ...

 

[Flying Crane]

Worked through as in?

And not in the ting often enough and my martial arts suffers for that lack of exposure.

As does yours.

You know nothing of what my training does or does not need.

 

[Flying Crane]

Even if you just test your skill against your teacher, classmates, and training partners, you are still using some kind of "sport" format and apply "rules" that both persons will agree.

If you only test your skill within your own MA system, you may not test your skill enough against people from other MA systems. For example,

Without testing your skill against

- BJJ guys, you may never experience the "pull guard" and "jump guard"
- MT guys, you may never experience the "flying knee".
- ...

No, it is not sport.
Of course there are some rule that apply. Nobody said any differently.

 

[drop bear]

You know nothing of what my training does or does not need.

Because being insular is the way to go?

 

[Tez3]

Even if you just test your skill against your teacher, classmates, and training partners, you are still using some kind of "sport" format and apply "rules" that both persons will agree.

If you only test your skill within your own MA system, you may not test your skill enough against people from other MA systems. For example,

Without testing your skill against

- BJJ guys, you may never experience the "pull guard" and "jump guard"
- MT guys, you may never experience the "flying knee".
- ...

I think you misunderstand what you are testing. You are fixated on techniques.

Over the back of my house is the moors and the army training area. last night the Infantry recruits were out on exercise, getting ready for their final exercise where they are tested. You could hear the fire fights going on and see the shemoulies lighting up the area. Now, when it comes to that final exercise what do you think the instructors are going to be testing?
They won't be testing the recruits weapon handling, their leadership skills, their drill, their field craft etc etc the instructors know they can do all of that, after all they taught them over the past few months but they don't know that when push comes to shove if the recruits can do it under pressure. They will be testing the man not the techniques..

This is what you do when you pressure test your techniques in the cage/ring/mat. You aren't testing your techniques (it doesn't matter what style either), if you have drilled them and drilled them they come as second nature, you know they work, what you are testing is YOU. Will you hold your nerve when there's a flurry of punches coming at you? will you get up if you are knocked down or curl up like a baby? Can you keep calm, assessing as you go along or are you going to lose your rage and flail in? The questions aren't about techniques, they work, it's about you, have you got 'it'.
Plenty of people haven't, ask any promoter. People phone on the morning of a fight with an 'injury, I've seen people take their medical then disappear never to be seen again, one lad even got as far as the cage door, turned around and went back to the changing room. It happens a lot.

Techniques work, you know they do, you've practised them on resisting people, you know all the various ways to put them on and if that doesn't do it you know how to transition to do another technique then another. You don't have to test them against anyone but you do have to test your nerve. Until you test yourself, until you know yourself and how you behave under pressure it won't matter how many different styles you train with because sure, you can use them in a 'sports' context but can you use them when you really need to or will you go to pieces?
It's not your MA skills that need testing, it's you.

After the first fight, fighters know whether they can compete or not so then it's still not about testing techniques it's about winning fights, doing what you know, using tactics to win against opponents.

 

[Hanzou]

And do you still hold that Mr. Chen is a grappling specialist?

Yes. He's a competitive grappler.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

The problem is, people want to turn everything into a competition, and push hands translates very poorly into that. When used as a competition, it breaks down and turns into a shoving match, more than anything else. Genuine push hands is not a shoving match. When people approach it as a competition, it changes the whole thing and nobody benefits for it because it has been twisted into something it was never meant to be.

Competition push hands may not match up with your use of the exercise, but that "shoving match" involves genuine skill and technique. From my standpoint, I can see martial application for that skill, so I would say that there is benefit to be had. I'm not saying those benefits are any better or worse than what you get out of your approach to push hands, but I'm saying they are definitely there.

It is not designed for continuous fighting, it is something to train sensitivity and balance that you might use for a fraction of a second in a real fight. To consider it grappling makes absolutely no sense to me at all.

Just because you can apply something in a fraction of a second doesn't make it not grappling. Ronda Rousey will practice continuous uchikomis in the gym so that she can throw someone in the cage in a fraction of a second.

I'm not talking about 'real' push hands and whether it works or not. I am asking what you think is its place in the martial arts.

For me, it's an exercise for developing sensitivity, balance, and structure in the context of medium-to-close range contact with another person. Furthermore, it helps develop skill in manipulating the other person's balance and structure. For a minority of tai chi practitioners, it's also a competitive martial sport.

Perhaps you could explain the martial application of what you saw in those 10 videos, perhaps in the environment of a pub altercation.

Okay, in the pub altercation, an aggressor might initiate contact through shoving, or tackling, or throwing a punch which the defender might block and stick to. In this period of contact (which might be short or extended), the defender could use the skills and attributes developed through push hands to maintain his own balance and disrupt his attacker's balance, possibly even applying a throw or armlock.

Using said attributes to apply and defend against strikes would be more the province of sticky hands than push hands, but there is some overlap in the skills being developed between the two training methodologies.

I would test any technique with my training partners. Not in any way that you describe.

I work through it with my sifu, classmates, and training partners, as much as we feel is necessary.

I'm curious - how exactly are you working with your training partners to test your techniques?

And, I sure as **** would never count rounds and tally up a percentage on my techniques. Sorry, but that makes no sense at all.

Eh, Kung Fu Wang's methodology as described is oversimplified for a variety of reasons, but there is some definite value to the underlying concepts he is working with. I think I may write up a post soon examining some of those concepts.

I think you misunderstand what you are testing. You are fixated on techniques.

Over the back of my house is the moors and the army training area. last night the Infantry recruits were out on exercise, getting ready for their final exercise where they are tested. You could hear the fire fights going on and see the shemoulies lighting up the area. Now, when it comes to that final exercise what do you think the instructors are going to be testing?
They won't be testing the recruits weapon handling, their leadership skills, their drill, their field craft etc etc the instructors know they can do all of that, after all they taught them over the past few months but they don't know that when push comes to shove if the recruits can do it under pressure. They will be testing the man not the techniques..

This is what you do when you pressure test your techniques in the cage/ring/mat. You aren't testing your techniques (it doesn't matter what style either), if you have drilled them and drilled them they come as second nature, you know they work, what you are testing is YOU. Will you hold your nerve when there's a flurry of punches coming at you? will you get up if you are knocked down or curl up like a baby? Can you keep calm, assessing as you go along or are you going to lose your rage and flail in? The questions aren't about techniques, they work, it's about you, have you got 'it'.
Plenty of people haven't, ask any promoter. People phone on the morning of a fight with an 'injury, I've seen people take their medical then disappear never to be seen again, one lad even got as far as the cage door, turned around and went back to the changing room. It happens a lot.

Techniques work, you know they do, you've practised them on resisting people, you know all the various ways to put them on and if that doesn't do it you know how to transition to do another technique then another. You don't have to test them against anyone but you do have to test your nerve. Until you test yourself, until you know yourself and how you behave under pressure it won't matter how many different styles you train with because sure, you can use them in a 'sports' context but can you use them when you really need to or will you go to pieces?
It's not your MA skills that need testing, it's you.

After the first fight, fighters know whether they can compete or not so then it's still not about testing techniques it's about winning fights, doing what you know, using tactics to win against opponents.

I'd say both the person and the techniques have to be tested. Ideally in as many ways possible (for both the person and the techniques).