How to understand a kata

[Curlykarateka]

Sure, after performing a kata a few times I can see one or two meanings for every move, different ways of breathing and different rhythms. but there has to be more to it than that, help from any other martial artists on how they think about and practice Kata/forms. Apparently each kata is a complete system of fighting, how does one achieve that level of mastery and understanding?

 

[Flying Crane]

how long have you been training?

 

[K-man]

Sure, after performing a kata a few times I can see one or two meanings for every move, different ways of breathing and different rhythms. but there has to be more to it than that, help from any other martial artists on how they think about and practice Kata/forms. Apparently each kata is a complete system of fighting, how does one achieve that level of mastery and understanding?

There are some simple explanations for the moves you see in kata, but in reality it is highly unlikely that the moves you see are the intended applications which are concealed within the kata.

There are many books that you can read to further your understanding. Some I have which I have found excellent are; 'Okinawan Karate' by Mark Bishop, 'The Way of Kata' by Lawrence Kane and Kris Wilder and 'Bunkai Jutsu' by Iain Abernethy.

The is a top Goju man in the US called David Oddy who proposed a very good analogy. You take a kata and learn the moves. It's like moving in a circle. After you learn the moves you have come full circle. Now you start to perform the kata with intent, good strong moves. Soon you are back to the beginning. Now we can look at the moves and try to interpret what the moves could mean. Each time we look at the kata, it takes us back to the beginning. Now we can look at a deeper meaning to the kata and again after a period of time we have a much better knowledge. Another circle. Perhaps we could now look at how Kyoshu is within the kata, another circle. How does kata work on the ground? Another circle. Locks and holds, throws and takedowns etc. If a observer was looking down from above he would see a little karate figure going round and round in circles, getting nowhere. That is how many people view kata, from above. Now, if our observer was on the ground he would see that each time our little karate figure has completed a circle, he is on a higher level. Each circle takes him higher and higher as his knowledge and understanding increase. That is how I view a serious practitioner of kata.

Many people complete the first few circles and get bored. I could spend the rest of my life going round in circles with kata.

Check out Iain Abernethy on the Internet. He has enough free information to keep you going for years. When you are ready for your next level, purchase some of his DVDs.
:asian:

 

[seasoned]

how long have you been training?

Your answer lies here.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Honestly, I applaud CK's thirst for knowledge, considering he is only 14, with only 6 years experience. My advice is to keep an open mind and an empty cup, and you can learn a lot from the people here on MT. I have been practicing for 28 years, and I have learned a great deal from the many people here! I think K-man gave some great advice on where to start looking.

 

[Cyriacus]

What K-Man said. Id suggest starting with Iain Abernathys stuff on Shuto Uke, which you can pop by youtube and find. Its very easy to understand whats happening, and the mentality that goes into interpreting it the ways he does can (for me at least) make it easier to get off on the right foot with other things.
Of course, what helps for me may not be universal, but its worth a shot

 

[Curlykarateka]

how long have you been training?

six years, but I started at age eight, so I've only been intellectually mature for 2/3 of those. Does it matter?

 

[Flying Crane]

six years, but I started at age eight, so I've only been intellectually mature for 2/3 of those. Does it matter?

it only matters in the sense of your experience level will affect how you view kata and what you may or may not understand about it. Someone with a lot of experience is likely to recongize issues around kata that someone with little experience would simply not grasp or be able to understand. I just wanted to get a sense of where you may be in your progression and experience.

 

[K-man]

six years, but I started at age eight, so I've only been intellectually mature for 2/3 of those. Does it matter?

My son started training with me when he was eight. That was over 30 years ago. (I look at that age for my youngest grandson to start although at age 4 we are already 'playing' karate.)
So you are about the age he was when he stopped training first time round. At that stage your have a fair grasp of the basics. I only have one junior (14 or 15 yo) in my class. He was only there because his father also trains. He has been with me for about a year and his knowledge and ability is growing by the day. I just hope he stays with me when the hormones kick in because he will be unbelievable. So 14 to 15 is a great age to start consolidating your knowledge.

From my point of view the biggest problem you will face will be with the instructors you will come across. What we are talking about here (on MT) are concepts that aren't always present in your average school. That's where you'll see the term McDojo coming up from time to time. But that doesn't stop you learning by yourself. (I don't mean that as training by yourself.) Look at what's on the Internet, start trying to see the difference between the good stuff and the crap. Get as many good books as you can that are produced by top people (not always easy to tell which ones are good when you are starting out) and study the techniques. And try to attend seminars with different people.

You are studying Goju, if I recall an earlier post. Remember its roots were in Kung Fu. I have understood so much more about karate by looking at Kung Fu guys training. (There are lots of WC guys on this forum who post some great material.)
Look on the Internet for a guy called Masaji Taira. He is a top Okinawan Goju man who has some fascinating concepts.

And the best advice I could give is, enjoy your training. Make sure it is good fun. Never let it get boring. :asian:

 

[punisher73]

Katas are interesting in the traditional arts. If you take a look at an art like "American Kenpo", many of the forms are based on their self-defense techniques so you know exactly what the move is supposed to do. On the other hand, traditional karate kata are what is called a "Mnuemonic Device". Which is something that helps remind us of deeper information or something that helps us to recall information. For example, "Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally" that is taught to school children to help them remember the order of operations in basic math (parentheses, exponents, multiply/divide, add/subtract). If you were JUST taught that phrase and not taught the other stuff, it wouldn't mean a whole lot. Then future generations from now, you might have theories on how that phrase is used to teach basic manners!

Before the advent of putting pictures/drawings into books, the motions of kata didn't have names (or they were given poetic names like in the chinese arts--White Ape Steals the Peach). Once you put a name on the motion, it becomes that motion. So if I call it an "inward block", I now look at it through the lense of an inward block, when the intent could also be a hammerfist to the jaw, or used in conjunction of the chambering hand as an arm break. Those are just a couple of examples, but the idea was the motion was the same for all those applications so you had a way to manage the information you knew.

This is also why it is a VERY bad idea to change the moves of a kata to fit a specific application. The moves aren't intended for just one purpose and when you change it for that application, you are losing the other information.

Lastly, I will add that katas teach concepts of body motion and aren't ALWAYS a direct application or it will teach you the hardest way to do it so the other ways are easier.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

This is also why it is a VERY bad idea to change the moves of a kata to fit a specific application. The moves aren't intended for just one purpose and when you change it for that application, you are losing the other information.

While I don't disagree with the above statement, how do you wise MTer's feel this applies to the lineage of a particular form that is taught across many styles? Do the subtle changes (which down the line become not subtle at all) from one style to the next restrict or just change the possibilities of the applications. I would like to exclude changes that were solely for athletic or aesthetic changes (i.e. changing kicks to the knee/groin/waist to kicks to the head).

Let's use Seisan as an example, since it is one of the oldest forms practiced across many Okinawan, Japanese, and Korean styles.

Goju Ryu Seisan:

Shito Ryu Seisan:

Shorin Ryu Seisan:

Shotokan Hangetsu:

Wado Ryu Seisan:

Isshinryu Seisan:

Uechi Ryu Seisan:

Ryukyu Kenpo Seisan:

Tang Soo Do Seisan:

 

[K-man]

While I don't disagree with the above statement, how do you wise MTer's feel this applies to the lineage of a particular form that is taught across many styles? Do the subtle changes (which down the line become not subtle at all) from one style to the next restrict or just change the possibilities of the applications. I would like to exclude changes that were solely for athletic or aesthetic changes (i.e. changing kicks to the knee/groin/waist to kicks to the head).

Let's use Seisan as an example, since it is one of the oldest forms practiced across many Okinawan, Japanese, and Korean styles.

First I think you have to look to the source which is thought to have been White Crane Boxing from Fujian Province in Southern China where a number of Okinawan masters spent years learning the local fighting systems. Bushi Matsumura was one of the first to visit China and bring back knowledge that would be the basis for his system. Among his students, Anko Asato, Anko Itosu, Motobu Choki, Nabe Matsumura and Chotoku Kyan.

Aragaki was another and when you look at his most famous students it reads like 'Who's Who'. Among them men famous for developing the major Okinawan styles, Funakoshi Gichin, Higaonna Kanryo, Uechi Kanbun, and Mabuni Kenwa. So it is easy to understand how it is common across the karate spectrum.

Some of these guys, like Higaonna Kanryo and Uechi Kanbun, also went to China to further their study, so they would also have seen the form at its source.

In those days it seems the master would teach the kata in slightly different ways depending on the physical attributes of the student. Whether that came with different applications we will never know. But, if all these guys went away with a slightly different variation it is easy to see how the variation has occurred. But the most likely driver of change is when they stopped teaching the applications. Now anyone could vary the kata to suit themselves and no one is the wiser. Schoolboy karate as it was introduced into schools and universities and hence into the community could be anything.

In some ways it doesn't matter if it has changed and in others I would really like to know the original form. If your idea of kata is how you perform it in competition it doesn't matter at all. If you are trying to use it as a fighting system then it is more difficult, a bit like a back office Baffin sending out the wrong calibre ammunition to the battlefield. You waste time trying to work out why the gun doesn't work.

So, we have to work with what we have and try to use our knowledge of techniques to unravel the secrets of the kata we are studying, regardless of the variations. I haven't tried it, but, it might be possible to look across the spectrum at the differences to help with our understanding. :asian:

 

[sopraisso]

six years, but I started at age eight, so I've only been intellectually mature for 2/3 of those. Does it matter?

There is much more inside karate than most schools usually show. I've seen guys who trained for a decade and didn't have a clue about how karate should work.
Your current attitude -- looking for knowledge and keeping yourself humble at the same time -- can take you beyond you can imagine. Just keep your interest and an open mind. When you get close to your twenties you'll probably be greatly ahead of many older guys around -- just never let it go to your head, though. :asian:

 

[punisher73]

While I don't disagree with the above statement, how do you wise MTer's feel this applies to the lineage of a particular form that is taught across many styles? Do the subtle changes (which down the line become not subtle at all) from one style to the next restrict or just change the possibilities of the applications. I would like to exclude changes that were solely for athletic or aesthetic changes (i.e. changing kicks to the knee/groin/waist to kicks to the head).

Let's use Seisan as an example, since it is one of the oldest forms practiced across many Okinawan, Japanese, and Korean styles.

First I will reiterate a key statement that I said in relation to changing the kata.

This is also why it is a VERY bad idea to change the moves of a kata to fit a specific application. The moves aren't intended for just one purpose and when you change it for that application, you are losing the other information.

It is felt that "Seisan" is the oldest okinawan kata that we still have. Now, let's look at the "changes" to the kata. If we look at those examples, we see not just changes to the kata but to they "style" itself. The changes reflecting the style's strategy and focus for how it viewed unarmed combat. The changes weren't just technique focused application wise, but changed the techniques to fit into this combat model.

A more specific example. If you look at Isshin-Ryu's Seisan kata, the pattern and flow is from Shorin-Ryu's Seisan kata, but the stances are from Goju-Ryu's Seisan kata. The individual techniques used are then replaced with Tatsuo Shimabuku's personal approach to combat (the double bone block, the vertical punch etc). It is probably the same with the others, the founder of the style made changes to reflect their personal approach.

Now, the question is. Was some information lost with the changes? We will probably never know that. Karate used to not be taught as a business, but was a personal relationship with the teacher/student. When the teacher "altered" the kata, it was specific for what that individual needed (remember most classes were very small and individual attention was high) and wasn't meant to be taught to others. That was why, it used to be a teacher taught ONE PERSON to pass on the system to others and would keep it intact.

We KNOW that information was changed when karate went public. We have Itosu saying that he changed the katas to be taught to the public in the school systems. Then we have Funakoshi saying that he also changed the kata to be taught to school children and the Japanese. We also know that karate was changed to teach American GI's when they started getting military contracts.

By looking at the other styles of karate, especially those that have tried to stay as close to the source as possible we can start to understand some of the movements and their possibilities of applications.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

So, we have to work with what we have and try to use our knowledge of techniques to unravel the secrets of the kata we are studying, regardless of the variations. I haven't tried it, but, it might be possible to look across the spectrum at the differences to help with our understanding. :asian:

This is a subject/concept that very much interests me. I will admit I know very little of Seisan, I only chose it because it is a very old form that is practiced across many styles. I think I might have to start a new thread!

 

[TimoS]

In those days it seems the master would teach the kata in slightly different ways depending on the physical attributes of the student.

A bit off topic, but I have my doubts about how true this really is. I think it's more to do with when a particular student came to a teacher. The kata had simply evolved a bit and that is why different students have different looking versions. I am by no means an expert on physical education but I think it requires a lot of theoretical and practical knowledge about human physiology to be able to "tailor" your teachings to fit an individual without compromising the underlying principles and I don't think the old masters were that organized in their teachings.

 

[OldKarateGuy]

I have posted this anecdote before, but I think it instructive here. In one of his books - forget which - Kanazawa says that when he was a young man, he trained with Funakoshi himself, who was very elderly. He learned a form from Funakoshi, again forget which (if it was even mentioned). He finally worked up his nerve and said to Funakoshi "I learned this form originally from X, who learned it from you in the 1930's. but the way you do the form now (1950's) is not the same way your student taught it to me. Why has the form changed?" Funakoshi told him "The kata has not changed. When I taught it to X I was a young man, full of strength. Now I am an old man, and I do the kata the way an old man can." So, the students were slavishly following every detail of the elderly sensei, and in effect, making changes from the original way of doing the kata. Every change to a form may not be intentional, but may be something unintended, like in this case.
This story may be apocryphal, but Kanazawa did put it in a book.

 

[K-man]

IWhy has the form changed?" Funakoshi told him "The kata has not changed. When I taught it to X I was a young man, full of strength. Now I am an old man, and I do the kata the way an old man can."

Mmmm! Sounds like me and jump kicks.

 

[chinto]

Kata and what it is teaching you will change over time as your understanding changes. a student who is doing say saisan for 2 years will see a different thing in it then that same student will see after doing the kata for say 10 years. there is Doctrine and Tactical thinking as well as techniques and then implied techniques you will find as you go back time and time again and look anew at what it is trying to teach you.

 

[enthusiast]

Here is what my instructor said about kata.

He told us that they are not applicable in real life fighting, but they are the best preparation for it. We do not fight by using the kata that we learned, instead, we perfect our fighting form and motion through our kata.

Or sth like that, I can't explain it well, I hope you get his point. I'm a karate newbie btw