Ya gotta do what ya gotta do, Terry. If she spreads bad stuff about you, the smart people will give you chance regardless. You want smart clients. 
How to handle the parents
- Thread starter terryl965
- Start date
You have to do what is best for you and your school. I hope all works out for the best for all.
I think it's a fine line between encouraging parents to participate and presuming to use one's position as a martial arts coach as a pulpit from which to judge people as parents.
ATC and others, I went back and looked for a thread I started a while back that discusses all of the ramifications of whether an MA school can be a private club or not. http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71712
As an aside, I'm glad this gave me an opportunity to read that thread through again. Some really good points were brought up on both sides. That and I must have had a lot more time on my hands.
That's a good thread to read - a centerpoint of that discussion is post #26 by SL4Drew where he posts part of the statute.
It is fairly obvious that this goes beyond the mere act of adjusting the blinds.
This is an issue of a parent's behavior in the lobby and being unable to comply with a simple request of 'don't touch' on numerous occasions and it seems that there is a hefty amount of complaining being done that is disproportionate to the issue of the blinds. It also seems from Terry's initial post that this clique was making a point to make trouble.
Consider: the waiting room is just that: a waiting room. Services are rendered on the mats and in the office, not in the waiting room. The waiting room windows have UV film on them to filter out excessive heat, and for those who still wish a less sunny seat, they are accomodated by seating further up in the room. These individuals, for whatever reason, have chosen to refuse that accomodation.
I worked retail for many years. Too many. There are people who simply live to complain. They complain loudly and vociferously and do so to as much of an audience as they can. Such people will do this no matter how good the service is, no matter how perfect your facility and no matter how much you accomodate them. Because no accomodation is ever enough; they want to complain.
And they will do their best to poison anyone else in the waiting room with their negativity until it is made clear that you will no longer service them if they continue. At this point, they will either behave themselves or they will be denied service.
These are people who suffer from some other issue that has nothing to do with the establishments they patronize and subsequently antagonize. Whatever that issue is, it is not encumbent upon merchants and service providers to enable them in their bad behavior.
I worked in a mall location years ago and there were people who were unwelcome in nearly every store in the mall due to their behavior. Mall security was aware of them. These were not shoplifters. These were individuals who spent their days looking for excuses to complain, and then doing so to such an extent that they were unbearable in every establishment that they entered.
Sometimes, these people have kids enrolled in a martial arts class and ruin things for their kids by antagonizing the staff.
Daniel
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Agree and largely why I posted the link. The following is particularly relevant to this discussion:
Some factors courts look at are: (1) whether the club is highly selective in choosing members; (2) whether the club membership exercises a high degree of control over the establishment's operations; (3) whether the organization has historically been intended to be a private club; (4) the degree to which the establishment is opened up to non-members; (5) the purpose of the club's existence; (6) the breadth of the club's advertising for members; (7) whether the club is non-profit; (8) the degree to which the club observes formalities; (9) whether substantial membership fees are charged; (10) the degree to which the club receives public funding; and (11) whether the club was created or is being used to avoid compliance with a civil rights act.
My point then and now is that, by these criteria, most MA schools would not be able to claim status as a private club. Some, perhaps, depending upon how specifically it's run. Most schools are for-profit, are not extremely selective, actively canvas for new membership, consider payment for lessons "fees" rather than "dues" and are not self identified as a "private club."
Steve
Mostly Harmless
This is actually a conscious shift in corporate retail policy over the last decade or so. In the 90's (and for a long time prior to that), the mantra of "the customer is always right" was considered sacrosanct. As we moved into the new millenium, many large retailers made the decision to change that policy and now have no problem showing certian people the door. They finally realized that bending over backwards attempting to satisfy one unpleasable customer often undermined good service to many other pleasable customers. Or, simply put, there are certain customers who end up costing the company money in the long run, even if they make a purchase. While a good retail outlet will still do everything it can to make things right for good customers, there is a realization that not everyone is a good customer. There are bad customers, too.
Great post, Daniel.
I'm wondering if articles of incorporation could be worded to define a club as private or not.
Hey, I wonder if Terry would mind if this thread were moved to School Management?
I really wanted to reply to this:
I couldn't agree more which is why I think a bit of a partnership must be reached. I won't tell the parents how to parent, but I did express to them that I would be doing a disservice to them by promoting them without demonstrated improvement. They are also *little* *kids* I'd be doing everyone a disservice by not acknowledging that. They are still developing emotionally, physically, socially. You have to address those needs in class one way or another.
The parents of the kids I teach seem to trust me - I take the time to talk to the children on their level one-on-one and right in front of the parents. They are always *so* nice and respectful when they speak with me.
The class where I assisted for a few years ... well, I tried to address parental issues because there just seemed to be conflict resulting from misunderstanding sometimes, so I sought to bridge that gap. I remember the parents of one young man in particular who were very frustrated because their son had done well to memorize all of his material quickly and he wasn't immediately tested for his next rank and they expressed some dissatisfaction. I think this frustrated the instructor as well others. I talked with them after class one day and just told them that their son - though having the sequence of moves memorized - was still learning the technique, the flow of form ... these things had to mature with practice and time and asked them to give him another month in the class. Sure enough, that time and his intelligence and natural talent paid off; he was not faltering on any move, his aim was good, his stances and balance were improving ... he was closer to *owning* his material. I brought mom right out onto the floor to watch from a different vantage point so he wouldn't see her. She agreed to his progress and I recommended him to the instructor for testing. He passed with flying colors.
OTOH, you can explain and placate and schmooze all you want and there will be those whom will not be happy and are just plain old narcissistic people who have certain ideas and getting them beyond that point just isn't going to happen. There's a special place for those folks - outside the dojang.
I couldn't agree more which is why I think a bit of a partnership must be reached. I won't tell the parents how to parent, but I did express to them that I would be doing a disservice to them by promoting them without demonstrated improvement. They are also *little* *kids* I'd be doing everyone a disservice by not acknowledging that. They are still developing emotionally, physically, socially. You have to address those needs in class one way or another.
The parents of the kids I teach seem to trust me - I take the time to talk to the children on their level one-on-one and right in front of the parents. They are always *so* nice and respectful when they speak with me.
The class where I assisted for a few years ... well, I tried to address parental issues because there just seemed to be conflict resulting from misunderstanding sometimes, so I sought to bridge that gap. I remember the parents of one young man in particular who were very frustrated because their son had done well to memorize all of his material quickly and he wasn't immediately tested for his next rank and they expressed some dissatisfaction. I think this frustrated the instructor as well others. I talked with them after class one day and just told them that their son - though having the sequence of moves memorized - was still learning the technique, the flow of form ... these things had to mature with practice and time and asked them to give him another month in the class. Sure enough, that time and his intelligence and natural talent paid off; he was not faltering on any move, his aim was good, his stances and balance were improving ... he was closer to *owning* his material. I brought mom right out onto the floor to watch from a different vantage point so he wouldn't see her. She agreed to his progress and I recommended him to the instructor for testing. He passed with flying colors.
OTOH, you can explain and placate and schmooze all you want and there will be those whom will not be happy and are just plain old narcissistic people who have certain ideas and getting them beyond that point just isn't going to happen. There's a special place for those folks - outside the dojang.
The issue isn't the adjustment of the window shades. It is the open disrespect that it represents. The owner of the business had asked them not to do it and they did it anyway. Clearly more to this issue than we know. The fact of the matter still remains just because you pay a fee it does not mean that you own the place. Have a discussion with the Master in private don't seek to undermine his authority in such a blatantly disrespectful fashion in public. Masters remember respect is a two way street you must show it to get it and I have witnessed a few Masters who did not follow this rule. Parents it is incumbent upon you to make sure that you research any organization that you join to make sure that it fits your needs. If you find that you have made a mistake pay your bill and leave. Don't become a cancer for those who may like the Dojang.
TKD_Father
Orange Belt
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There is always more then one way to handle a situation. Kicking the student is one solution. Personally, I would have handled it quite differently, but this is Terry's business and his choice.
I'm not sure I agree with seek to undermine his authority in such a blatantly disrespectful fashion in public for closing some blinds to get some shade though. It's not like they were spitting chewing tobacco on the mats or something. But I do agree with remember respect is a two way street and closing the blinds for 50 minutes or so might have gone very far in that regard.
I'm sure it will send a message to the other parents at his school. And I'm also sure they are already talking about it.
I'm not sure I agree with seek to undermine his authority in such a blatantly disrespectful fashion in public for closing some blinds to get some shade though. It's not like they were spitting chewing tobacco on the mats or something. But I do agree with remember respect is a two way street and closing the blinds for 50 minutes or so might have gone very far in that regard.
I'm sure it will send a message to the other parents at his school. And I'm also sure they are already talking about it.
If you do read carefully through Terry's post you will find that there are more issues than just the blinds - which btw was enough of a test of power, considering that shaded spots were available. Some people just are that way, passive aggressive and you do well to rid yourself of them, they poison the atmosphere. Oh, and I am sure she will turn around and do the 'poor me' routine, too.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #73
Go a head, it would probaly benefit some people.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #75
Sir there was alot more issue than the window shade, that was the last straw. The dis-respect she gave everybody was too much in the long run.
Geeze. I usually don't mess with stuff like that in *anyone's* business. I always kinda assume it's their business and they have things they way they want 'em. (They probably have a good reason for doing so.) Buying a meal at a place etc doesn't make me think that I in turn own part of the business and that I'm entitled to do as I like as soon as they take my money.
TKD_Father
Orange Belt
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If you allowed the situation to get to the point that a window shade was the last straw, then you allowed the situation to go to far.
Without going into any details, how many times had you sat her down prior to the dreaded curtain incident, and how did those sessions go? Bottom line is that you control the school, not her, and you should have been able to come to an understanding before it became necessary to kick out a student.
Of course, if you sat her down more then a few times and explained things with her and she still chose to challenge your authority in the school, including disrupting class and bothering the other students, then you have no choice but to ask her to leave, and perhaps remove her child from your school.
More than likely, things with parents go further than they ordinarilly would because the parent is not the student. No instructor wants to penalize a child for a parent's idiot behavior.
Several observations have been made about poor behavior on the part of customers being cause to ask them to leave. When a parent behaves in a way that they would be asked to leave, however, the parent is not the student. Kicking out a disruptive parent means kicking out the child as well.
Some time back, we had an issue with a parent who was generally unruly and confrontational. Ultimately, the situation solved itself before coming to a head (the student's contract ended and the dad did not renew), but it went on longer than it should have because the student was, quite honestly, excellent and a good kid who just loved the art and the school. The dad, on the other hand, was openly disrespectful to both GM Kim and the rest of the teaching staff (I was not on staff at that time).
GM Kim handled each incident of bad behavior professionally and diffused it, but the episodes were fairly regular (at least one a month) and did get progressively worse. The major difference with this situation from Terry's is that the other parents generally found the dad's behavior to be out of line and either ignored him when he tried to spread the negativity or told him that they were happy with the school and to keep it to himself.
As I said, I was not on staff at the time, and I found that his behavior was not limited to the waiting room. He spoke to me about his complaints when we would see eachother in a store that both his son and my sons liked to visit, and he and I did not know eachother well enough to even be considered casual friends. Other parents from the school who's kids occasionally made their way into the store (it was a comic book store) were also approached by him.
Bottom line is that a person who stirs up trouble in the waiting room is also doing so elsewhere. And not just for the school, but likely regarding other businesses or people.
If this mom that Terry had to send away was anything like this dad was, then nothing short of kicking her out would have solved the problem, both at the very beginning and at the end when it finally happened.
People like this never learned respect for others and by the time they are adults with kids of their own, it is too late to teach them. Such people genrally never learn unless a life altering even occurrs that forces them to radically reevaluate their own behavior. And even then, many such people simply determine that they are persecuted and become even more entrenched in their behavior.
Daniel
Several observations have been made about poor behavior on the part of customers being cause to ask them to leave. When a parent behaves in a way that they would be asked to leave, however, the parent is not the student. Kicking out a disruptive parent means kicking out the child as well.
Some time back, we had an issue with a parent who was generally unruly and confrontational. Ultimately, the situation solved itself before coming to a head (the student's contract ended and the dad did not renew), but it went on longer than it should have because the student was, quite honestly, excellent and a good kid who just loved the art and the school. The dad, on the other hand, was openly disrespectful to both GM Kim and the rest of the teaching staff (I was not on staff at that time).
GM Kim handled each incident of bad behavior professionally and diffused it, but the episodes were fairly regular (at least one a month) and did get progressively worse. The major difference with this situation from Terry's is that the other parents generally found the dad's behavior to be out of line and either ignored him when he tried to spread the negativity or told him that they were happy with the school and to keep it to himself.
As I said, I was not on staff at the time, and I found that his behavior was not limited to the waiting room. He spoke to me about his complaints when we would see eachother in a store that both his son and my sons liked to visit, and he and I did not know eachother well enough to even be considered casual friends. Other parents from the school who's kids occasionally made their way into the store (it was a comic book store) were also approached by him.
Bottom line is that a person who stirs up trouble in the waiting room is also doing so elsewhere. And not just for the school, but likely regarding other businesses or people.
If this mom that Terry had to send away was anything like this dad was, then nothing short of kicking her out would have solved the problem, both at the very beginning and at the end when it finally happened.
People like this never learned respect for others and by the time they are adults with kids of their own, it is too late to teach them. Such people genrally never learn unless a life altering even occurrs that forces them to radically reevaluate their own behavior. And even then, many such people simply determine that they are persecuted and become even more entrenched in their behavior.
Daniel
Many times the incidents are just this side of non offensive. Nothing you can get a foothold on. yes, one probably should stand up right then and there, but the reaction would likely be overkill. Like a good zit, no sense popping it until it's good and ready.
miguksaram
Master of Arts
Wait...I'm confused. Didn't you say earlier that kicking her out wouldn't have been your choice? So what do you do so that it doesn't get "too far"? Terry has spoken with her and tried the nice route. It didn't work. Do what is your advice when the counseling and the niceness doesn't resolve the situation?
Also, you should put on a school owner hat not a parent of a student hat when developing your answer.
Lastly to Terry...Sometimes you have to kill one to warn a thousand.
