How to deal with theory?

[kenpo12]

Some arts train exactly the same way as they fight or compete and some arts like kenpo have many very crippling/maiming techniques that can only be used when the poo hits the fan.
Kenpo, as many people train and teach it (many other arts as well) talk about techniques in theory, and they are never fully worked due to possible injury, at least for those of us that haven't used these techniques in a real self defense scenerio. Most of the dissagreements I see about kenpo boil down to ego and lack of confidence about their own techniques, otherwise people would be confident and not have to argue about it. We work out wearing cups, don't usually make contact to the eyes, throat, or nose, we don't complete bone breaks or disclocations, and in many cases (depending on where you train) don't run techniques on a resisting opponent, so the only way to truly know if a technique works is in a real fight, which if the person attacking you does not react the way you expect, may cause you a great deal of problems. This is also why in mixed martial arts boxers and grapplers have always been so successfull because they fight exactly the same way they train, no adjustments need to be made.
I'm curious as to how others here train to make the transition from practice to real self defense as smooth as possible?

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

If you search the forums here, you will find this has been discussed in detail.

Your question is an important one though. It is the most important question in martial arts training if you ask me.

Has anyone here read either "Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Theory and Technique" by Renzo and Royler Gracie or "Mastering Ju Jitsu" by Renzo Gracie? In both of those books, there are about three pages which should really be read by EVERY martial artist regardless of whether they want to grapple or not. Those pages are the ones discussing the "fundamental dilema of martial arts training"

The premise is that there are two types of martial arts training methods:

1) The Aiki Jujitsu and Traditional Martial Arts method is to learn a large repertoire of deadly and dangerous techniques. The techniques are so dangerous they must be practiced with control, without actually hitting targets, and/or with a cooperating partner in order to avoid frequent serious injury. The advantage of this training method is that the student learns movements that could quickly and decisively end a fight. The disadvantage is that the student never actually executes the movements properly in a training environment. Examples are eye-strikes, gouges, bone-breaking strikes, throat strikes.

2) The Judo, BJJ and Boxing method is to limit the techniques to those that can be executed full-speed and full-power against a resisting partner. The advantage is that by eliminating dangerous and deadly techniques, the student can spar for much longer periods without injury and can practice their techniques in a much more realistic manner against a fully resisting partner. The disadvantage is that the student does not include those dangerous strikes in their repertoire and may not be prepared to defend against them.

I think this analysis can teach us much about our training and about how we determine what works and what doesn't

 

[MA-Caver]

This has been re-hashed quite a bit in other topics on Martial Talk but as Old Fat Kenpoka pointed out it is rawther important topic.
As far as my own experience using my MT training (JKD and others) goes in a REAL fight... the transition was a smooth one and I put myself in the mind set that HERE I do not hold back or go half-assed as I would in training/sparring. I went all out hitting and kicking as hard as I could and fully intending to break bones and crush testicles when-ever possible in the fight.
Having been in dozens of fights in my jr and high-school and college years I was/am prepared for the fact that blood would/will be spilled and that I would walk away hurting to some degree (be it my fists/feet or where-ever my opponent managed to get in his own strikes/punches/kicks), but I would walk away and my opponent/attacker would hopefully be wiser in choosing his next confrontation.
I think a lot of MA students who may NEVER actually get to use their skills may not be prepared for such ineviatablity. It is like soldiers in combat for the first time with live ammo intentionally trying to hit them... some may freeze and do nothing, others may attempt but are sloppy and undiciplined and others go full out with their training and come out alive.
Dangerous and deadly techniques I've (had to) learned because my life infrequently puts me into such situations from time to time...fortunately and thankfully they've been less and less over the course of years.
I think any MA student of ANY art needs to take the possibility in consideration and realize the possible consenquences when they utilize <sic> their learned/practiced skills in the real world outside the dojo.
:asian:

 

[Touch Of Death]

I took a choking course from the Spokane Police departments instructor Bob Harder. We learned the proper way to choke and just how easy it was to put on. He felt that a lot of the throat crushing and eye gouging were pretty much negatable with increased proficiency in non lethal techs. I'd love to see a Kenpo guy try to explain to a judge that he ripped a guys throat out because that is just the way he was taught to deal with a self defense situaion. After taking this class, I sort of feel a responsibility.
Sean

 

[LadyDragon]

In our dojo the upper ranks do parctice live. Of course we don't take a techniques to its full extent, but we do try and make it as real as possible. There is some light contact of course so as to try and get a realistic reaction from your attacker.

But in retrospect, what you're really giving your body in class is the neuro-muscular memory its going to need to react properly out on the street. The simple fact of the matter in my oppinion is that out on the street you don't know what going to happen or how its going to happen, whether it be in a crowded room or on an empty street you still have to physically and psychologically be ready for anything. If you're afraid to punch someone in the nose during class, (even though you're not really going to do it) you still need to be prepared to pull it off out on the street.

 

[Brother John]

Originally posted by kenpo12
Most of the dissagreements I see about kenpo boil down to ego and lack of confidence about their own techniques, otherwise people would be confident and not have to argue about it

I'd have to disagree with you here on this one.
I've read, listened and engaged in many a Kenpo debate... including both internet and face/face. I've never heard people argue because of a lack of confidence.
Lack of knowledge? Sure. Lack of understanding? Usually.
Never because they weren't confident.
BUT: That's NOT what your post here was really addressing, that was a side comment.

I understand what you are getting at, I think. Kenpo has practices that are VERY difficult to withold the 'maim/kill/cripple' effect while practicing in anything but real combat. I've got scant few training partners as it is... it'd be costly and time consuming if we each had to wait for the others to heal up in the hospital before our next practice. But that's what simulation is for.

Airline pilots spend a tremendous ammount of time in simulation... landing jets who's engines cut out at 35,000', landing during extreme weather, while on fire, on water, on a highway...etc. None of which would you want them to 'practice' while you sat in their all too real 747. What's the equivalent in Kenpo? Alter the target, alter the weapon....etc. If it calls for a finger whip to the eyes... take it down a handful of inches to the trapezious. On things like joint-locks/breaks... gain a feel/sense for the extent of the breaking point and don't go beyond it.
In the AKKI we have some techs that go directly against the elbow (for those of you in the know... think of "Intercepting the Mace"). This is a most hazardous tech to do 'at-speed'... UNLESS the attacker knows how to take the needed precautions... turn the arm so that the break goes with the bend instead of against it. Then the execution of the tech is the same, but the result is different.
Think of "Leaping Crane". How many of your training partners let you give a full kick to the side of their knee?? IF they do, they won't do it twice. BUT: if the attacker takes the important precaution of going to the knee (kneeling) directly upon the fruition of their attack... bingo, you can leap and kick with accuracy and snap w/out giving your partner the "six month limp".
There's all kinds of things like this, takes some thought and practice, but it works. I know I could do these hazardous/damaging techs/moves in real combat....because I've simulated enough.
NO OFFENSE, please; but your comment about the major grappling schools/styles and your thought that they practice the way they fight... not true. They practice the way they 'compete', but the way that the grappling arts were meant to be executed in true combat is different. There's no reall 'controlling' them as they go down to the ground so that they can roll with it.... they slam and turn them in ways that make it MOST difficult to land well at all (least of all in some 'injury free' way). They don't roll them in big circles... but tight ones the harm the joints and tie them up better. Most locks are often sprains that lead to locks.
Besides, how many "real" jujutsu practitioners actually break their training partners joints? Yet that's exactly what SO many of the joint manipulation techs are meant to do.
Our grappling brothers and sisters are some of the best at "Simulation". It works.
It also keeps you stocked with training partners.
NOTHING can take the place of actual experience in Combat. Listen to those who have 'used' their art in life & death situations. Devour what the insights you can glean from them. It's worth it!!!
For instance, in the AKKI we have, of course, Mr. Mills who worked Years as a bouncer. He'd learn something from Mr. Parker... and end up using it in the rough places he worked... call up Mr. Parker and discuss/discect it.
Mr. Mill's students John Herman and Alan Jacob worked security at the IKC for years. Mr. Herman is also a very successful bouncer in some of the rough spots in Las Vegas.... for some time now. These men have insights and a vantage point on the art that should not be ignored or handled lightly.
Find men like this and LISTEN to their leading.
Your Brother
John

 

[phoenix]

BUT: if the attacker takes the important precaution of going to the knee (kneeling) directly upon the fruition of their attack... bingo, you can leap and kick with accuracy and snap w/out giving your partner the "six month limp".

Wherever did you get that idea??? Sounds familiar...

Sean

 

[Brother John]

Originally posted by phoenix
BUT: if the attacker takes the important precaution of going to the knee (kneeling) directly upon the fruition of their attack... bingo, you can leap and kick with accuracy and snap w/out giving your partner the "six month limp".

Wherever did you get that idea??? Sounds familiar...

Sean

From a fine Brother and mentor/teacher.
:asian:

Your Brother (Student/BEST Friend)
John

 

[phoenix]

Originally posted by Brother John
From a fine Brother and mentor/teacher.
:asian:

Your Brother (Student/BEST Friend)
John

Maybe I'll change my signature to "Brother John's Instructor"...maybe people will know who I am then ;-)

Sean

 

[Brother John]

Post from your knowledge/experience base and people WILL know you... wether they know of me or not.
Gots lots ta offer...
Your Brother
John

 

[WhiteTiger]

I have been training in Kenpo for 15 years, and used my art only once about 6 years ago. All I had to do to change my techniques from practice to actual combat was change the depth of penetration on my targets. I have always been trained to practice everything full speed and full power all of the time even with my training partner. I am sure most others train this same way, and the one time I had to adjust, I did it effortlessly and it came very naturally. Of course I defaulted to my favorite technique for the situation, the one I practiced the most and felt most comfortable with.

 

[Brother John]

Originally posted by WhiteTiger
I have been training in Kenpo for 15 years, and used my art only once about 6 years ago. All I had to do to change my techniques from practice to actual combat was change the depth of penetration on my targets. I have always been trained to practice everything full speed and full power all of the time even with my training partner. I am sure most others train this same way, and the one time I had to adjust, I did it effortlessly and it came very naturally. Of course I defaulted to my favorite technique for the situation, the one I practiced the most and felt most comfortable with.

agreed, the 'conversion' from practice to reality isn't that hard of a jump.... IF you train with as much realism as possible.

ALSO: I liked this line.

Of course I defaulted to my favorite technique for the situation, the one I practiced the most and felt most comfortable with

I find a lot of martial artists who have practical experience say this.
TO ME, this is just another good excuse to practice and get comfortable with enough...varied techniques.

Your Brother
John