How much has been lost

[lonecoyote]

In your opinion, how much knowledge has been lost in the chinese martial arts due to the past policies of the chinese governments, communist and nationalist? Just who was persecuted? One hears a lot of different things. Of course now there is wushu, and I've heard the chinese government did track down a very few people left, I think five, with Shaolin lineage and set them up so that they can claim unbroken lineage. I've also heard there was some written documentation of Shaolin technique, which looks like Hong fist. Were Tai Chi and Bagua, and WuDang styles persecuted? To what degree? There was kind of a diaspora as well, with Chinese going to every corner of the globe. Some people who trace their roots to these time periods are obvious frauds, while some are legitimate. Can anyone sort this out?

 

[clfsean]

Lots of things went underground. My style just went underground until it (Cultural Revolution) was over & is now back out in the open. Chen taiji did the same I know. People just quit practicing during the day or in the open & did it quietly & closed.

Lots of other things were lost too & can't/won't ever be recovered because they're truly gone. Nothing we can do about that except move on & keep what's left over from going the way of the do-do bird.

 

[Black Tiger Fist]

EXACTLY!!!

So much has been lost that it's a shame ,there were styles out there that will never be seen again. Then on top of that so many great masters that never got to pass their knowledge on. Add that to the other masters that chose to take their knowledge to the grave ,and the many masters that had unworthy students ,and who knows i'd say we only have maybe 5% of the knowledge out there today.

There are alot more fake than real teachers out there today.

jeff

 

[clfsean]

Then on top of that so many great masters that never got to pass their knowledge on. Add that to the other masters that chose to take their knowledge to the grave ,and the many masters that had unworthy students ,and who knows i'd say we only have maybe 5% of the knowledge out there today.

That's the truth. That still happens today. Many of the older generation now will teach a watered down or made up version of what they do & never teach the root & core of the system. They do it for their own reasons & it's everybody's loss. They may have one or two at best that they do pass the true heart of a system too, but I can gurantee those select few will teach & disseminate the knowledge the same way.

As far as the unworthy students, I'd say it's more of a common than an uncommon occurance too.

There are alot more fake than real teachers out there today.

jeff

Can I get an "AMEN" from the Choir?!?!?!

 

[Black Tiger Fist]

Can I get an "AMEN" from the Choir?!?!?!

AMEN BROTHER!!!


jeff

 

[7starmantis]

I dont know that I think there has been a tremendous amount of knowledge or "secrets" lost, changed maybe, but not neccesarily lost. Why do we think we have lost so much knowledge? Is it because of styles that are no longer practiced? Alot of styles have combined with others, that doesn't mean they are lost, just not in the same confines as before.

7sm

 

[RHD]

I dont know that I think there has been a tremendous amount of knowledge or "secrets" lost, changed maybe, but not neccesarily lost. Why do we think we have lost so much knowledge? Is it because of styles that are no longer practiced? Alot of styles have combined with others, that doesn't mean they are lost, just not in the same confines as before.

7sm

Who lost it? That's what I want to know. :idunno:

Mike

 

[7starmantis]

lol, I think you've lost it!

 

[RMACKD]

There has been a some stuff lost by kung fu styles and other oriental styles over the years. But some have been preserved and a friend told me in Russia and former soviet countries they preserved a lot. Most likely because they were exposed to it before they degenerated and that the arts were trained by people who had combat as a part of there jobs and focused on the combat application of the arts.

 

[Black Tiger Fist]

I dont know that I think there has been a tremendous amount of knowledge or "secrets" lost, changed maybe, but not neccesarily lost.

You don't have to look far to see that alot of knowledge has been lost in many styles ,just look within any style ,and see their techniques in regards to grappling. Look at all the techniques within forms that ppl are not sure what the technique are used for.

Why do we think we have lost so much knowledge? Is it because of styles that are no longer practiced? Alot of styles have combined with others, that doesn't mean they are lost, just not in the same confines as before.

7sm

There is no doubt that much has been lost over the centuries ,just how much is what we'll never know.

There are masters that took their knowledge to the grave without sharing it with anyone ,it continues to happen today even. In my style of Black Tiger we have older brothers that are taking their knowledge to the grave.

My sifu is currently one of only two ppl teaching our style

jeff

 

[clfsean]

You don't have to look far to see that alot of knowledge has been lost in many styles ,just look within any style ,and see their techniques in regards to grappling. Look at all the techniques within forms that ppl are not sure what the technique are used for.

Indeed... There are styles today that knowledge of the contents of the system have been lost because the teacher(s) didn't feel it was necessary to teach or that they had anybody worth teaching it to.

There is no doubt that much has been lost over the centuries ,just how much is what we'll never know.

That's true...

There are masters that took their knowledge to the grave without sharing it with anyone ,it continues to happen today even. In my style of Black Tiger we have older brothers that are taking their knowledge to the grave.

My sifu is currently one of only two ppl teaching our style

jeff

That still happens now. There's a set in my lineage of Choy Lee Fut that is passed only to the head next head of the system or the seniors worthy of having it. So far, it hasn't been passed on. However, what's lost if something unforseen happened? Thankfully nothing has or will for a long time, but that's a whole parcel of knowledge & techniques finished & not recoverable.

My sigung has no issue with this since he's put the time & effort in, learned, practiced & lived the old way. He's not stingy, not selfish, just old school. He'll gladly teach anything you ask for if you're ready for it or have earned it, but there are somethings that you don't go for until he says "Now".

We still face loss like that today. Let's not forget what happened with the Cultural Revolution & people like Gu Ru Zhang dying during it.

 

[7starmantis]

You don't have to look far to see that alot of knowledge has been lost in many styles ,just look within any style ,and see their techniques in regards to grappling. Look at all the techniques within forms that ppl are not sure what the technique are used for.

Thats easy to say, but hard to prove. What exactly has been lost? What techniques are lost? As far as looking into any style, lets take 7* mantis. Looking at our techniques for grappling, how does that show things have been lost? Just because someone is not sure of how a techniques is to be used, does not mean the knowledge of how to use it is lost. There are millions of martial artists who dont know how to use what they learn in forms, there are also alot of people who really do. I dont understand how any of that proves alot has been lost.

7sm

 

[tshadowchaser]

What exactly has been lost? What techniques are lost?

If we knew the answere to that they would no longer be lost.
I think that many of the old myths (well hand, death touch techs., etc.) may not have been myths but techniques that where taught to only a few students. With so many schools/systems haveing to hide their knowledge and practice for years I am sure that instructors where very selective of whom they taught and what they taught.

 

[7starmantis]

If we knew the answere to that they would no longer be lost.

Thats exactly my point though. Not knowing them also means you can't prove anything has been lost.

I'm, not saying no knowledge has been lost, but I think the popular belief of most "old school" knowledge being gone, is simply a myth in and of itself.

7sm

 

[Black Tiger Fist]

Thats easy to say, but hard to prove. What exactly has been lost?

Yes it is alot harder to prove ,so is lineage and alot of other things in TCMA.

What techniques are lost?

It is a given that you are not doing the same exact forms and techniques that Wang Lang created within his mantis style. While you maybe doing some of the orignal techniques ,i'm sure alot of the original set(s) are gone.

As far as looking into any style, lets take 7* mantis. Looking at our techniques for grappling, how does that show things have been lost?

How much of your grappling is done on the ground?

If you can say you really don't work on any groundfighting techniques ,then it's safe to say that some of that knowledge has been lost.

Many TCMA styles had groundfighting aspects within them ,it's only after many stylist had developed effective techniques against wrestlers ,that many styles moved away from the groundfighting aspects.

Just because someone is not sure of how a techniques is to be used, does not mean the knowledge of how to use it is lost. There are millions of martial artists who dont know how to use what they learn in forms, there are also alot of people who really do. I dont understand how any of that proves alot has been lost.

7sm

Well, what i meant was the sifu or masters themselves not knowing or being able to use the techniques because they were never taught or shown them.

jeff

 

[loki09789]

Is it a matter of 'lost' or 'changed' because of demand and need. What was needed before may not be needed now because of environmental changes (long fist styles changing as the system is taught to people who live in congested cities or rainy/muddy low lands instead of mountains....).

During the 'cultural revolutions' of china as well as the dynasty change overs, it wasn't that styles were outlawed but practice was outlawed (God knows you don't want a local militia drilling and training against you within your own borders). So the changes that would have made continued training possible would have created a different looking system with some old elements not used or new elements created OR reorganizations created. Hiding martial arts in fine arts performance to at least keep it alive was supposedly the origins of Wushu/Chinese Opera in a time when martial arts practice was akin to religious practice (remember that these arts were also religious in origin in some cases) and meant treason/death.

So, instead of focusing on what was lost, I would rather observe the evolution of the art/arts based on necessities and trends. That way, instead of being surprised, I just might be able to be pro-active and make the changes I need to in order to keep my art practice applicable to my own time/needs.

 

[7starmantis]

Yes it is alot harder to prove ,so is lineage and alot of other things in TCMA.

Why do you believe things in TCMA are hard to prove? Also, I think proving lineage isn't neccessarily that hard, but its awefully different from saying what your now practicing is somehow less than what was practiced years ago.

It is a given that you are not doing the same exact forms and techniques that Wang Lang created within his mantis style. While you maybe doing some of the orignal techniques ,i'm sure alot of the original set(s) are gone

Why is it a given? Your saying things like, "I'm sure they are gone" and "Its a given", that doesn't offer any tangible proof of things being lost.

How much of your grappling is done on the ground?

I guess your asking how much ground work we do? Alot. 7 star mantis has quite a bit of groundwork in it. In advanced levels of fighting, there are many, many groundfighting techniques and opportunities.

If you can say you really don't work on any groundfighting techniques ,then it's safe to say that some of that knowledge has been lost.

That would be safe to say, but we do quite a bit of ground work.

Well, what i meant was the sifu or masters themselves not knowing or being able to use the techniques because they were never taught or shown them.

That is exactly what I meant as well. There are many "sifus" or "masters" that have no idea what they are doing, that still doesn't mean we have lost knowledge or anything.

7sm

 

[RMACKD]

We can see how much some things have been lost by looking at what some schools have preserved that others have forgotten. For example Antoly Antolev is mentioned on the rma forum of this site and he teaches a Taoist martial art. It seems to be much more focused on combat applications that typical schools, has groundwork, no forms, and practices groundwork against multiple attackers. Former Soviet countries seem to have preserved a lot of things for example Alexander Popov was taught Hung Gar and a few other chinese arts. He combined them with Russian arts to create a system used by the Soviet Spetsnaz. He sells videos on his system and on pure Hung Gar. His Hung Gar videos has some unique things like special techniques used to face other martial arts schools.

 

[Black Tiger Fist]

Why do you believe things in TCMA are hard to prove? Also, I think proving lineage isn't neccessarily that hard, but its awefully different from saying what your now practicing is somehow less than what was practiced years ago.

Because most styles of TCMA are atleast 200-400 yrs old some much older ,and most CMA has no written records only word of mouth. It is hard sometimes to tell which is actual fact or just legend in TCMA.

Lineage is very hard to prove in some cases ,because not all masters told their students whom they did or did not teach.Many masters exchanged techniques and styles ,this does not mean they advised anyone of these masters they exchanged with ,also those masters then taught others ,so that's where proving lineage becomes a problem.

An example would be my sigung Grandmaster Wong Cheung ,he is known for his Black Tiger ,but few know that he was a master of Hung Gar which he learned from Wong Fei Hung himself and Hung Fut ,which he learned directly from Baak Mou jiu (White Haired Devil) If you search either styles lineage Wong Cheung's name is not mentioned ,it is only through masters who knew him ,and of his skill that this is even known.

Why is it a given? Your saying things like, "I'm sure they are gone" and "Its a given", that doesn't offer any tangible proof of things being lost.

"Tangible proof" in TCMA.....you've got to be kidding right?!?!?

Do you really believe you're learning the actual 7* Praying Mantis as it was taught centuries ago? Do you really believe that 7*Mantis always had so many forms?

I guess your asking how much ground work we do? Alot. 7 star mantis has quite a bit of groundwork in it. In advanced levels of fighting, there are many, many groundfighting techniques and opportunities.

That would be safe to say, but we do quite a bit of ground work.

Groundfighting techniques like?

We work on groundfighting in Black Tiger ,but i'd be safe to say it's nothing like what must have been done back then.

That is exactly what I meant as well. There are many "sifus" or "masters" that have no idea what they are doing, that still doesn't mean we have lost knowledge or anything.

7sm

Well, them not knowing could be one example of proof ,they may not know because it was never explained to them by their sifu ,because he did not know. He might have learned the form ,but it was never broke down into applications because that knowledge had been lost.


jeff

 

[7starmantis]

Because most styles of TCMA are atleast 200-400 yrs old some much older ,and most CMA has no written records only word of mouth. It is hard sometimes to tell which is actual fact or just legend in TCMA.

Using words like "most" is not accurate. Why do you believe most Chinese Martial Arts have no written records? There are plenty of written records dating far back into CMA history. You could go way, way back even in taiji and there are written records such as the Tao Te Ching, there are dynasty records dating even farther back. It’s these misinformations and personal beliefs that create such a confusing history for new comers to try and wade through. Why is it so many people in today’s society still do not know what kung fu or CMA is? It’s because everyone has their own "feeling" or "belief" about what it is, or where it came from. Truth is simply not in the eye of the beholder.

Lineage is very hard to prove in some cases ,because not all masters told their students whom they did or did not teach. Manyy masters exchanged techniques and styles ,this does not mean they advised anyone of these masters they exchanged with ,also those masters then taught others ,so that's where proving lineage becomes a problem.

An example would be my sigung Grandmaster Wong Cheung ,he is known for his Black Tiger ,but few know that he was a master of Hung Gar which he learned from Wong Fei Hung himself and Hung Fut ,which he learned directly from Baak Mou jiu (White Haired Devil) If you search either styles lineage Wong Cheung's name is not mentioned ,it is only through masters who knew him ,and of his skill that this is even known.

I'm of the school of thought that those kinds of lineage issues truly don’t matter. What does it matter if one "master" traded thoughts with another "master"? I believe that was probably done allot, as it is nowadays. Lineage isn't hard to prove if you just list who taught you, who taught them, and so on and so forth. People get too wrapped up in who may have trained with whom and may have given some secret ancient kung fu potion to whom, that they forget to go workout and train hard themselves. It’s ridiculous. If we are going to give our opinions here, I say that in the "olden days" the "masters" trained allot more and talked alot less, than any of us do now days. What matters is your skill. Everyone must stand on their own skill, not anyone elses.

"Tangible proof" in TCMA.....you've got to be kidding right?!?!?

It’s this need or wanting to have some part of some ancient mystical thing that causes problems in CMA. Too many people desire and search for some magical and mystical element to kung fu. Why must I be kidding? Are you saying it is inconceivable to think of tangible proof inside CMA?

Do you really believe you're learning the actual 7* Praying Mantis as it was taught centuries ago? Do you really believe that 7*Mantis always had so many forms?

Are you asking if I believe I'm practicing the same techniques from centuries ago, or am I being taught the same way as centuries ago? I believe there are techniques that are the same, yes. I also believe there are changes and new techniques. Lee Kam Wing has created forms that are very obviously new since he is still alive. I thought I said at the beginning that things have changed and "evolved", I just don’t believe there was some magic mantis move that is now forgotten.

How many forms do you think 7* mantis actually has? You used the words, "so many". I don’t obviously, since I mentioned LKW's newer forms and such. But the fact of whether or not mantis had less or more forms in its infancy has nothing to do with whether or not we have lost knowledge or techniques over the years.

Groundfighting techniques like?

We work on groundfighting in Black Tiger ,but i'd be safe to say it's nothing like what must have been done back then.

I'm not really sure how to describe our groundfighting techniques. They are probably very similar to many groundfighting techniques with the difference of our principles still applying to ground or feet fighting. There are locks, breaks, submissions, etc. Why would you be safe saying not as many as before? I'm not trying to say you’re wrong, I just don’t understand why you believe so strongly that what you are practicing is a weak watery carbon copy of what you’re really wanting to study. Sorry, that was a bit sarcastic, I'm just not understanding why you so whole heartedly believe things were so much better and more effective and grander, just simply because it was many years ago.

Well, them not knowing could be one example of proof ,they may not know because it was never explained to them by their sifu ,because he did not know. He might have learned the form ,but it was never broke down into applications because that knowledge had been lost.

Those not knowing isn't really proof. I mean, I'll give you that it could mean that, but it could also mean they were taught by someone who didn't know what they were doing, or maybe they didn't pay attention well enough. Maybe they just simply don’t understand it. Those are all possible explanations, not just that the knowledge has been lost.

7sm