How is the stop-format kumite done in training without a referee?

Discussion in 'Karate' started by Acronym, Aug 29, 2020.

  1. Acronym

    Acronym 2nd Black Belt

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    In the stop format at competition, you have a referee stopping and then judges evaluating who hit first. How does it work in the dojo training when the two of you are on your own?

    Isn't it hard to know who won each exchange? Doesn't it all get a bit blurry?
     
  2. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    The honor system and respecting your partner pretty much do it.

    In those cases, winning is pretty low on the importance scale. It’s about training and learning and having fun.
     
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  3. CB Jones

    CB Jones Senior Master

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    Where my son trains the instructor is a big proponent for competing....but at the school 90% of the sparring is continuous 2-3 minute rounds (switching partners each round). Score is not kept.

    You know when you get hit and you know when you land.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2020
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  4. Acronym

    Acronym 2nd Black Belt

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    Is that the norm or the exception to make it easier, having them do continuous?
     
  5. Acronym

    Acronym 2nd Black Belt

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    That's irrelevant since it's the one who lands first who gets the point, and it's often the case that they both land.
     
  6. Monkey Turned Wolf

    Monkey Turned Wolf MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Generally people can acknowledge when they were the ones who hit first/last. It hasn't been an issue for me in point sparring or in fencing (similar rules, except both people hitting happens more often, and we have to be able to tell who hits first or if they're at the same time). The only times it is, is when either you have someone new who gets tunnel-visioned, or someone super-competitive who doesn't like acknowledging when they lost a touch/point.

    Obviously it's not perfect, and sometimes there's a debate, but a: judges aren't perfect either, and b: in the grand scheme of things, 1 point/touch that isn't clear out of 20 doesn't matter all that much in sparring.
     
  7. Acronym

    Acronym 2nd Black Belt

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    It looks to me between equally matched practitioners that they tend to be fractions of a second between each other when landing. This is also why many former point fighters left the sport because judges make mistakes all the time depending on where they are looking.
     
  8. Acronym

    Acronym 2nd Black Belt

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    I don't know why you claim that happens more often. What is the difference in rules?
     
  9. Monkey Turned Wolf

    Monkey Turned Wolf MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I should have clarified-that's just based on my experience from doing both. I'd say at least half of touches in epee, assuming both people are around the same skill level, ends up being both people 'touching' each other. When I did point sparring it was less than half. But like I said, just my experience, not anything definitive.

    As for rules in epee (I'm not including foil/sabre since right of way complicates this), ignoring that it's a weapon, electronic (if you have the equipment), and you can only go back and forth, the relevant difference is that there are two ways to score. The first is land a touch on the other person more than 40 milliseconds before the other person does. In which case you get a point and they don't. The second is land a touch within a 40 millisecond timeframe of when the other fencer also lands a touch, in which case you both get a point. If you land one but its 50 ms after the other person, only they get a point.
     
  10. Acronym

    Acronym 2nd Black Belt

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    Who keeps track of how many milliseconds it took for a punch to land? Do you use instant replay?
     
  11. Monkey Turned Wolf

    Monkey Turned Wolf MT Moderator Staff Member

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    The key part here is that the fighters themselves recognize a lot of the time when judges make a mistake. It's a lot easier to tell which came first-the sensation of something touching/hitting you vs. you hitting/touching something, then it is to look at the two and tell. Assuming the practitioner doesn't have some sort of neurological issue that messes it up. There's a slight bit of leeway with that (being hit within 10 ms of hitting someone, you probably won't be able to tell which came first), but a judge also wouldn't be able to tell that.

    I know in the competitions I did as a kid, if both hit at the same time, it would be considered a 'clash' and no points would be given. That's basically a way of determining when the strikes are in that range where it's too close to call. I tried looking it up online, but I'm not sure how the electronic TKD gear handles those.
     
  12. Monkey Turned Wolf

    Monkey Turned Wolf MT Moderator Staff Member

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    So to clarify, that was for epee, not point sparring. One of the differences I had mentioned.

    And if we're dry fencing, no one in particular is keeping track. After a while you end up being able to just tell when a touch was/wasn't within the limit for it most of the time. We actually did test a couple times with a camera app to see if we were right with our assumptions for dry fencing (important since we dry fenced a lot), and in the tests we got it right every time.
     
  13. Acronym

    Acronym 2nd Black Belt

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    It doesn’t. The style of TKD that you are referring to is full contact and doesn’t care who hit first. It all counts. The head gear was put in place to avoid corrupt decision, so there is nothing in the hands of judges because the helmets keep track of the scores.

    There's also continuous semi contact taekwondo without helmets and there it doesn’t matter who hit first either.
     
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  14. Acronym

    Acronym 2nd Black Belt

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    Ironically, kicks to the face score in semi contact Taekwondo but not in Olympic Taekwondo, because the helmet can't register the impact.

    This is also why todays TKD in the olympics is very watered down.
     
  15. Acronym

    Acronym 2nd Black Belt

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    @Jaeimseu If a kick to the face results in knockout, do you win or is it NC?

    This I'm not sure about. One would think that if it scores as a KO, you would still see a lof of face kick attempts, instead of all those axe kicks to the top of the head
     
  16. isshinryuronin

    isshinryuronin Brown Belt

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    This is the answer - end of discussion (when in a friendly self-scored match).

    As novices should not be sparring without supervision, advanced practitioners know without even being hit. They know if they were out of position and open to get hit before the strike gets halfway to the target - Each knows the other knows the truth of it. If both hit so close in time its hard to know who got there first, it doesn't matter - call it a tie and resume the workout. No big thing.

    Anyone who makes it a thing is just being difficult and demeans himself, showing they don't understand the spirit of MA.
     
  17. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    It's generally not that difficult to tell (as one of the participants) which landed first - your strike or the one that hit you.
     
  18. Acronym

    Acronym 2nd Black Belt

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    It is difficult since techniques that don't touch but are very close to touching, might also score points.

    "Distancing also relates to the point at which the completed technique comes to rest on or near the target. A punch or kick that comes somewhere between skin touch and 5 centimetres from the face, head, or neck may be said to have the correct distance."
     
  19. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    In my experience, near-touches generally aren’t counted in friendly sparring. Except, of course, when it’s clear it was pulled to avoid hard contact.
     
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  20. Acronym

    Acronym 2nd Black Belt

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    It seems strange why it would count in tournaments. I think it refers to when you've hit it so cleanly and fast, yet didn't touch, that your opponent was paralyzed by it and the judges could clearly see that you exhibited outstanding control. Otherwise it doesn't really make sense to score techniques that don't land.123
     

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