How important is lineage?

[Xue Sheng]

I am beginning to wonder how much lineage actually matters.

Does it really matter if you can say your teacher is, or my teacher’s teacher is Wu Kwong Yu, Sun Lu-Tang, Yang Zhenduo, Chen Zengli, or Yang Cheng Fu?

Is the Tai Chi that you learn from somebody in Hebei, Hunan, Guangdong or Yunnan province, whose name is Chan, whose teachers name was Wei whose teacher was Jiang that learned from Chen or Yang or Wu or Sun, less Tai Chi than what you would get from someone named Yang, Chen, Wu, or Sun?

Does matter if the Tai Chi that you are taught is very good, very sound has all the forms done correctly with the Qi Gong, Push Hands and applications, as well as the philosophy.

For that matter if that Tai Chi is taught by someone named Smith who learned from Harrison who learned from Jones who learned from someone named Yang or any of the other families, if it is complete, is it a lesser Tai Chi just because of lineage?

My Teacher learned from Tung Ying-Chieh who learned from Yang Cheng-Fu, but does that make it better than someone whose teacher is 3 generations from Yang Cheng Fu.

Is someone’s Tai Chi better than mine just because they learned from Yang Zhenduo? And sense Tai Chi is Taoist, would my Tai Chi better than all other Tai Chi forms just because I could claim I learned from Taoists?

 

[TheBattousai]

Linage is not that important (since it originates from one guy's idea), only for instructors and for those who study the variations to see what the difference is. As long as there are the thirteen postures and a seemingly sound instructor, that is what matters. Plus the most important thing is that you like the Tai Chi your practising and the instructor, so its really up to you on if your Tai Chi is good, like with all martial arts, the student determines the quality of the art.

 

[East Winds]

OK, I'll dip my toe into the water and say, Yes, I think linage is important. It can tell you where your form is coming from. It can tell you how authentic
the form your are learning is. However the type of lineage that says "My teachers uncle once knew a man whos son delivered papers to Yang Cheng-fu" is not much of a lineage. However if you can say that my teacher was made a lineage holder by one of the original Taiji family members, then at least you can be fairly sure that you are learning an authentic family form. Is that important? Depends on whether you think it is important to learn an authentic form, or a form that someone merely made up and called Tai Chi. Will it make your Taiji any better. Probably not. The difficulty comes when teachers change or misinterpret what they were taught. Cheng Man-ching was a student of Yang Cheng-fu, but so changed Yang's form that it can no longer be called Yang style. Tung Ying-chieh (another of Yangs students) did the same. (Nothing wrong with either of these forms by the way). Fu Zhong Wen on the other hand still taught the form as Yang transmitted it (as did Chen Wei Ming). The two sons Yang Zhen Ji and Yang Zhen Duo do the same. Deviation from the teachings of any of these people will change the form and as Yang Cheng-fu himself said "That is it. The form cannot be improved upon. To add or remove anything will destroy the essence of the form". Just my personal view.

Regarda

 

[Andrew Green]

It can tell you where your form is coming from. It can tell you how authentic the form your are learning is.

Which brings up another question, are those things important?

To some people, to others not. As long as it does what I want it too, what difference does it make where it came from if I am interested in the practical values and not history?

Can you tell me what school your doctor went too? Who the Dean at the time was? Do you care? or as long as he knows how to fix your arm do you not really care?

 

[Makalakumu]

Lineage in Tai Chi can be both very important and unimportant. It is important because often teachers who have impressive lineages tend to be more knowledgable then those who do not. And it is unimportant for the reasons that Andrew Green stated above.

Tai Chi is unlike harder styles of MA in many ways including that it can be hard to see its effectiveness if one does not have a lot of training. Knowing the lineage of one's teacher can help one determined initially whether or not something is authentic.

The fact something is authentic will not always mean that it is effective. Yet, I think that, in a general way, connecting authenticity and effectiveness as an initial assumption is okay.

 

[East Winds]

Andrew,

I thought that that was what I was saying!! Does it matter? However would you go to a "first aider" if you required radical surgery? If you don't care that he studied at veterinary school rather than a medical school, thats OK. You get what you pay for. I study with a lineaged teacher and am very happy. Thats all there is to it!

Regards

 

[Andrew Green]

One major difference, first aid and MD's are regulated and standardized. The same cannot be said for Martial Arts.

Being of a lineage does not guarantee any level of teaching ability or knowledge, and not having a lineage does not guarantee a person doesn't.

And no, I wouldn't care about where he studied as much as has he done it before? How many times? How many times has he done similar procedures? How often have they been successful?

A good surgeon is a good surgeon no matter where he got his degree.

In martial arts, at least non-competitive ones, you can't look at those things. Things are very subjective.

 

[Makalakumu]

Being of a lineage does not guarantee any level of teaching ability or knowledge, and not having a lineage does not guarantee a person doesn't.

I would disagree with you here. In TMA, lineage, more often then not, clues one in to the quality of the martial arts training. This may not always be the case, but those are just the bad apples. In Tai Chi, this is even more important.

 

[Xue Sheng]

OK, I'll dip my toe into the water and say, Yes, I think linage is important. It can tell you where your form is coming from. It can tell you how authentic
the form your are learning is. However the type of lineage that says "My teachers uncle once knew a man whos son delivered papers to Yang Cheng-fu" is not much of a lineage. However if you can say that my teacher was made a lineage holder by one of the original Taiji family members, then at least you can be fairly sure that you are learning an authentic family form. Is that important? Depends on whether you think it is important to learn an authentic form, or a form that someone merely made up and called Tai Chi. Will it make your Taiji any better. Probably not. The difficulty comes when teachers change or misinterpret what they were taught. Cheng Man-ching was a student of Yang Cheng-fu, but so changed Yang's form that it can no longer be called Yang style. Tung Ying-chieh (another of Yangs students) did the same. (Nothing wrong with either of these forms by the way). Fu Zhong Wen on the other hand still taught the form as Yang transmitted it (as did Chen Wei Ming). The two sons Yang Zhen Ji and Yang Zhen Duo do the same. Deviation from the teachings of any of these people will change the form and as Yang Cheng-fu himself said "That is it. The form cannot be improved upon. To add or remove anything will destroy the essence of the form". Just my personal view.

Regarda

First, I am not trying to make a case against lineage nor am I saying it is a bad thing. However I do not believe that just because there is good lineage, or good claimed lineage, that there is necessarily good Tai chi. The student does get good bragging rights, but not necessarily good Tai Chi.

And I do believe that if you learn from someone 3 or 4 generations removed from the root family it is very possible to get both very good and very bad tai chi, but no bragging rights.

But let me say this, if lineage is all that matters for good tai chi and if that also is to be considered the "Unchanged version" then by that logic the Yang style of Yang Chien-hou was better than Yang Cheng-fu, because Yang Cheng Fu changed it by removing much of the fajing.

Also by that same logic Chen is better than Yang and Yang is better than Sun, since Chen came first and Sun came last.

Or that my teacher's tai chi is not as good as Sifu Chu in Boston because my teacher learned from Tung Ying Chieh and Sifu Chu learned from Yang Cheng Fu's oldest son.

And it is saying that My Tai Chi would be better than my teachers if I went and learned from Yang Zhenduo.

As for learning from someone who once delivered papers to Yang Cheng-fu, I would have to agree that person would not be a good choice for a Tai Chi teacher.

However with that being said Yang Lu-Chan was not originally an inside student of Chen Chang-Hsing, he originally learned by watching from a distance, without the knowledge of Chen.

And there are many who do not believe that Chang Man-Ching learned from Yang Cheng fu. Some say he learned from Chang Yin-Ling who learned from Yang Chen Fu, but that is an entirely different discussion.

 

[dmax999]

First my question... would an MBA from Harvard be any better then one from University of Tennesse? In some cases yes, but only if you care about the difference.

I learn from a CMC lineage. Now East Winds may probably not think much of what I learned, he is a traditional Yang guy and doesn't care for the changes by CMC (Only picking on East Winds becasue I know he is a traditional Yang guy and it is important to him). I however at this point think CMC made imporvements on Yang style so learning from his lineage is more important to me. Us two think lineage is important to us, we just think different lineages are better and there is nothing wrong with that.

It is important if you know what the differences are and they are important to you. Traditional Yang and CMC are two of the best examples of lineage. Both are great, both are obviously differnt, and if you decide one is better then the other then lineage is very important. If you don't know enough to be able to even spot the differences, who cares?

Whats really import though is who the 3 or 4 guys from the original you are interested in are. If they are not up to snuff then the lineage doesn't matter at all. Or else they may be better then the original (As in CMC in my view) then you actually want the "non-perfect" lineage.

The real hope is that you become good enough to stand on your own knowledge where lineage doesn't matter anymore. How many people actually know Yip-Mans Wing Chun teacher (Im sure there are some here, but you get the point)? He stood on his own merits without question.

 

[Xue Sheng]

First my question... would an MBA from Harvard be any better then one from University of Tennesse? In some cases yes, but only if you care about the difference.

I learn from a CMC lineage. Now East Winds may probably not think much of what I learned, he is a traditional Yang guy and doesn't care for the changes by CMC (Only picking on East Winds becasue I know he is a traditional Yang guy and it is important to him). I however at this point think CMC made imporvements on Yang style so learning from his lineage is more important to me. Us two think lineage is important to us, we just think different lineages are better and there is nothing wrong with that.

It is important if you know what the differences are and they are important to you. Traditional Yang and CMC are two of the best examples of lineage. Both are great, both are obviously differnt, and if you decide one is better then the other then lineage is very important. If you don't know enough to be able to even spot the differences, who cares?

Whats really import though is who the 3 or 4 guys from the original you are interested in are. If they are not up to snuff then the lineage doesn't matter at all. Or else they may be better then the original (As in CMC in my view) then you actually want the "non-perfect" lineage.

The real hope is that you become good enough to stand on your own knowledge where lineage doesn't matter anymore. How many people actually know Yip-Mans Wing Chun teacher (Im sure there are some here, but you get the point)? He stood on his own merits without question.

Great Post, I agree.

Yip-Man, a great example. Yip Man's student was Bruce Lee, but Bruce started Jeet Kune Do, and stood on his own.


If you talk to Chen Zengli, he says Chen style is better than all other Tai Chi styles. If you talk to my teacher he says that Yang Style (my teacer learned from Tung who learned from Yang), is better than Chen because Chen is to low.

 

[East Winds]

I think we are all basically singing from the same song sheet here and I agree with all that dmax999 says. By the way I don't disparage CMC form, I think it is a very effective fighting form. Here in the UK it is probably the most popular form taught, therefore I know and have worked with many of its leading teachers in the UK. (I've even had the privilege of pushing with William CC Chen). I just don't like people calling it Yang style! The CMC lineage is a perfect example of a new lineage being created, resulting from a senior student changing his teachers form. And I agree, that if you are happy being taught by a teacher who made up his own the form, that is OK. The difference with CMC and Tung Ying Chieh was that theyhad the advantage of training with (and therefore retained much of the original essence) the originator of the form. So it is with the CMC lineage now. Incidentally I have also experienced Tung's Fast Form (from a lineaged teacher) and thoroughly enjoyed it.

Best wishes

 

[arnisador]

Some people are interested in the art for history's sake. Many who study iaido would be much less interested in a "modern" sword art. Like those who recreate Civil War battles, they are in it for the historical accuracy because those times fascinate them. Then, the lineage is an historical connection that is important to them!

I have just started to study a combined trapping based system that melds together ideas from Wing Chun, Jun Fan Gung Fu, Jeet Kune Do, Silat, and Eskrima and Kali. It's interesting and effective. But we occasionally do traditional Wing Chun too. I get a kick out of that because it's a classical art. Both are good for me! I respect those preserving the art of naginata-jutsu even though it's now impractical. Like ballet, one does not want to lose those arts. There, lineage is valuable.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Historically lineage is important and to some to have a teacher with a good lineage is very important. But does that lineage make the Tai Chi better?

I like the idea that my teacher has a good lineage, and he is very skilled. But if he decided to teach to make money, he would have to teach less detail to gain more students. And there are teachers out there, with a good lineage, that do exactly that.

With Chinese martial arts you also have a cultural lineage as well. More Americans tend to go to a kung fu/Tai Chi schools run by someone from China than run by someone from America.

My first Tai Chi teacher, if you see him do Traditional Yang or Traditional Chen it looks exactly like what you see done by the Chen Family or the Yang family, but he didn’t learn from them. He did learn Tai Chi and Kung Fu in China, but he learned it in a Chinese University and he did not learn the traditional forms.

He had more Tai Chi and Kung Fu students than anyone else in the area, just because he was from China and new how to advertise. Meanwhile the Kung fu school just down the street (Wing Chun) had few students, the Sifu was American. It did not matter that his teacher was one of Yip Man’s sons, he was not Chinese. His martial lineage was good, but his cultural lineage was not. I will also add you were a whole lot more likely to get hurt training at teh Wing Chun School than my former teacher's school.

My current Tai Chi teacher has fewer students than my former teacher, my current teacher is from China and is a student of Tung Ying-Chieh. But he does not advertise, does not make training tapes, and does not publicize his lineage. But his Tai Chi is far better than my former teacher.

But I am still not convinced that a good lineage means good Tai Chi. I am not trying to make a case against lineage, I think it is good to know where your art came from. I just am not convinced that it is how a teacher should be judged.

 

[East Winds]

Xue Sheng,
"I just am not convinced that it is how a teacher should be judged."
Is that not the whole point. A lineaged teacher HAS been judged and by his peers who consider him good enough to continue to transmit the lineage. Although I study with a lineaged teacher, I do not and could not claim lineage! I began studying Taiji with a Chinese so called Master. It was only after a few years that I realised I had been duped! If your teacher is lineaged and more importantly can prove it, you can guarantee that what he is teaching is correct. However I also believe that lineage can only be conferred by a family member. Studying with a lineaged teacher on the other hand is no guarantee that your own Taiji is any good!!!!

Best wishes

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue Sheng,
"I just am not convinced that it is how a teacher should be judged."
Is that not the whole point. A lineaged teacher HAS been judged and by his peers who consider him good enough to continue to transmit the lineage. Although I study with a lineaged teacher, I do not and could not claim lineage! I began studying Taiji with a Chinese so called Master. It was only after a few years that I realised I had been duped! If your teacher is lineaged and more importantly can prove it, you can guarantee that what he is teaching is correct. However I also believe that lineage can only be conferred by a family member. Studying with a lineaged teacher on the other hand is no guarantee that your own Taiji is any good!!!!

Best wishes

I think I missed something here, judged how?

I have a tendency to get overly wordy so it may very likely be my fault.

I am basically saying, and I think it is close to what you have said, lineage is good, but it does not guarantee a good teacher.

I had somewhat of the same experience as you had, with my former teacher. He knew only form and no depth. He was, as the Chinese call, a flower fist.

He has since claimed a lineage; I am told, to Chen style. However Chen Zhengli who followed that with, “he never learned from my family told me this."

To make a case for lineage, I truly wish I could study with the Chen family in China, and if he were here more often than once a year, with Chen Zengli. I was very impressed with his knowledge, skill, attitude and personality.

My teacher is also very good and I do not doubt his skill in any way. He has however changed his approach and focus of late. But that is another story.

I do not mean to say anything against lineage, I am just mot convinced that lineage alone makes a good Tai Chi Teacher.

Now with that being said, it is time for me to go to Tai Chi.

 

[Xue Sheng]

East Winds

I see what I posted last night is not showing up, so I apologize for this extremely long reply.

From last night:
I think I missed something here, judged how?

I have a tendency to get overly wordy so it may very likely be my fault.

I am basically saying, and I think it is close to what you have said, lineage is good, but it does not guarantee a good teacher.

I had somewhat of the same experience as you had, with my former teacher. He knew only form and no depth. He was, as the Chinese call, a flower fist.

He has since claimed a lineage; I am was told he claimed Chen style. However Chen Zhenglei, who told me this, followed that with, “he never learned from my family."

To make a case for lineage, I truly wish I could study with the Chen family in China, and if he were here more often than once a year, with Chen Zengli. I was very impressed with his knowledge, skill, attitude and personality.

My teacher is also very good and I do not doubt his skill in any way. He has however changed his approach and focus of late. But that is another story.

I do not mean to say anything against lineage, I am just not convinced that lineage alone makes a good Tai Chi Teacher.

Now with that being said, it is time for me to go to Tai Chi.

From Today:
I was thinking about this lineage stuff last night and what you had said and what arnisador had said and I started to wonder, what other Martial arts are so obsessed about lineage?

Most martial arts you may know your teacher’s teacher, but that is as far as it goes, if it goes that far.

I started training, back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, Jujitsu. Although I knew my teacher was very good and had received his Black belt in Japan, I did not know the names of his teachers, I knew he also studied Karate, Judo and dabbled in Kung Fu when he was younger, but all I really new was he was a 3rd degree black belt in Jujitsu. My second teacher taught Tae kwon do, I had know idea who his teacher was, all I knew was he was highly skilled and was born and trained in Korea.

My next teacher was Tai Chi / Kung fu, from China, and he did not speak much of lineage, sense he did not have one, until much later he began to claim one that was not true.

My current teacher has never spoken of his teacher without being asked and I never knew his teacher’s teacher was Yang Cheng-Fu, until one student came to class one day wearing a Yang Cheng-Fu t-shirt and my teacher made a comment that the guy on the shirt looks just like his teacher’s teacher.

I originally found out his teacher was Tung Ying-Chieh after another student told me and I asked my teacher about it.

It was obvious that Chen Zhenglei was from the Chen family, but he did not speak of his teacher, other than his uncle, and he only mentioned it once. I found out who his uncle was when I read one of his books.

So is it that the good teacher’s with a good lineage are not just standing on the shoulders of their teacher, but we, as students are making a big deal out of it so we can judge our Tai Chi against others, or as I mentioned before, to have bragging rights?

 

[Andrew Green]

Here's a article on lineage http://www.24fightingchickens.com/2005/10/23/the-shotokan-family-treehouse/

Shotokan is used, but I think most of the points could be made filling in whatever style you like.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Andrew

That's a great article.

It seems to answer my question about bragging rights.

As Americans, are we more interested in "pedigree" as the article says, than quality?

It would appear so from the article.

 

[Andrew Green]

As Americans,

Who you calling American?