How Important is Fighting in YOUR Martial Art?

[FriedRice]

You are ascribing emotions to me that are not in play here.

Because you've made no argument other then telling me to "go spar Mike Tyson". If that's not getting your feelings hurt, I dunno what is.

And now you are getting snarky because I do not share your sentiments.

Oh so now I'm being snarky but you're not by telling me to "go spar Mike Tyson" as your response? Stop being a hypocrite.

 

[FriedRice]

You mean once?

"Punching someone in the face, as hard as possible and as many times it takes to KO them,"

 

[FriedRice]

I'm sorry but that is complete rubbish. I don't know what kind of MMA matches you have been watching but that is not what is going on.

You obviously didn't understand what I wrote. Go read it again.

The only reason no one dies is because of all of the safety measures they have in place. If your comment was in any way accurate then MMA bouts would be banned just about everywhere.

You still don't understand what I said.

Maybe you should tell that to Robin Givens.

Maybe you should go "spar Mike Tyson".

You seem to me to be of the opinion that any MMA fighter with even a modicum of experience can beat any TMA guy in seconds which is quite frankly naive and ignorant.

Now you're just making up what I didn't even say.

 

[FriedRice]

If you want to find out if what you do works bring in a bunch of guys from the street or loal bars and have them have a go at you or your students. If knives are to be used make sure to make them something that will not kill anyone but will leave proof of it being used. NO the students and you are not allowed to know if any weapon is going to be used. The session well be brutal but in the end you'll know if what you do works. You will also know if you need fighting in your school to improve what you do

This is a good form of weapons training right here, although still not even close to perfect as there's no thrusting allowed:

This is my EDC blade in the Tanto 5.5" version:

that I shadowbox with at least an hour a week with. MMA footwork and Boxing hand speed mostly. Slight contact with it will cause massive damage. This is why cops will open fire and empty their 17-19 round mags on someone with a blade within 15-20 feet w/o much warnings. Even against someone untrained with weapons, going against a knife w/barehands is just crazy.

 

[K-man]

Well it is. And it frustrates me because i want to be good at knife defence but if I di a test on day one with a rubber knife and did a test after five years with the same guy I am not sure how much more successful I would be after five years of training.

We train against knife every session using real knives (blunt of course). Even after years of training you become familiar with the techniques and movements to the point that it is second nature, but it is still not a reliable defence. Most training you see is against specific attacks, straight thrust, ice pick, slash, backslash etc. That's fine, and part if the training, but very few places train against a knife that is constantly moving around or the frenzied attack. I wouldn't trust any training, short of a firearm at ten paces, against a guy who knows how to handle a knife. The only reliable defence is to get away. Hopefully none of us will ever have to put our training to the test.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Yeah ... can you clarify how "mental drives physical" more in what you call "traditional karate" than in any other art? Can you break down what that even means?

|
Well, that's a very good rendition. I have a different emphasis on the CEO analogy.
|
Like a CEO of kumite, I am very conscious about what is going on and what I need to do. I am extremely deliberate in my actions. Extremely. I used the concept of KIME to illustrate this. KIME is strongly emphasized in the original Gichin Funakoshi curriculum. KIME is not the whole. There's other posters @ the "State of Mind" that expound & expand on the mental discipline dimension, some referring to the term, "Mental Clarity." The mental discipline dimension of traditional karate is what powers it's effectiveness beyond the more reflexive and instinctive skills you largely refer to.
|
I don't instantly smash boards with reflexes, etc., I smash them with conscious, deliberate precision which I can adjust by KIME.
|
I'll give a really great example in the history of full contact karate fighting to illustrate the complete lack of KIME, despite a complement of the more instinctive abilities, in my comment below.

 

[ShotoNoob]

|
Well, that's a very good rendition. I have a different emphasis on the CEO analogy.
|
Here's my follow up to my post just above...

|
THE JOE LEWIS VS. SHOTOKAN KARATE STYLIST--GREG BAINES.
|
Greg Baines was very powerful physically, perhaps more so than Joe Lewis. Greg Baines was a 2nd degree black-belt in Shotokan karate and had mowed down all opponents. In the match with Joe Lewis, Greg Baines experience changed.
|
Round 2, essentially, Joe Lewis using his JKD mobility and a Bruce Lee tactic of going low then high to the head--a double hook, KO'd Baines on his feet and put him away with Baines now defenseless.
|
Joe Lewis recounted that Baines did not seem to hit really hard that day, for whatever reason. Moreover, Baines (Lewis said), tried to react to Joe Lewis's offense, but could not really mount a defense, let alone an offense.
|
Joe Lewis credited his win to the conditioning & tactics taught him by Bruce Lee.
|
The first great lesson in this video if you can still find it, is Full Contact Shotokan Karate Champion Powerhouse Greg Baines couldn't begin to muster an ippon karate kumite defense & counter to a simple boxing combo (albeit one performed by the a super-super athlete, Joe Lewis).
|
Question. Where was KIME on the part of Greg Baines?

 

[drop bear]

We train against knife every session using real knives (blunt of course). Even after years of training you become familiar with the techniques and movements to the point that it is second nature, but it is still not a reliable defence. Most training you see is against specific attacks, straight thrust, ice pick, slash, backslash etc. That's fine, and part if the training, but very few places train against a knife that is constantly moving around or the frenzied attack. I wouldn't trust any training, short of a firearm at ten paces, against a guy who knows how to handle a knife. The only reliable defence is to get away. Hopefully none of us will ever have to put our training to the test.

So if we don't get any meaningful result out of the training. Mabye we are training in a flawed manner.

have you ever considered just scrapping it?

Train knife defence under a completely different context.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Or that your defense training is way too fake compared to his, being way more realistic.

Or that neither of you spend enough time on the basic defenses and just try straight for the frenzy and end up being sloppy and ineffective with your technique. Or that you in particular don't have a clue what you are talking about.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Because you've made no argument other then telling me to "go spar Mike Tyson". If that's not getting your feelings hurt, I dunno what is.


Oh so now I'm being snarky but you're not by telling me to "go spar Mike Tyson" as your response? Stop being a hypocrite.

If you look straight up and squint your eyes you may just see the point which is sailing far over your head.

Since you seem to be having trouble with basic concepts I will try to explain one more time, this time from the beginning:

First K-man said:

To me that is far more realistic than sport sparring.

Then you said:

What kind of "sport sparring". TMA tippy-tappy sport sparring or 100% power, in Boxing gym, sparring to KO your partner?

Then Tony Dismukes said

I have seen folks sparring in the ring at 100%, but it's not the norm at most places. Usually it happens when egos or tempers get out of control. It's not the best way to learn and is a good way to get injured before you get to actual competition. Most boxers have enough sense to save that level of intensity for the actual match.

Then Drop bear said:

huh?

plenty of tmas spar. Very few don't.

I have seen 100% sparring and even KOs from face punches.

I am not sure where you are going at all with this.

To which K-man replied:

Show me one TMA that spars in the way you mean, that is sport sparring.

And then you again:

Are you serious? How else would fighters train for their fights? You need to go when the fight team trains, not the cardio kickboxing class.

Then I mentioned Tyson.

The entire point is that no one spars at their absolute maximum as they would in a title fight or a self defense situation in their regular training all the time every time. Mike Tyson is JUST AN EXAMPLE of someone who would go through a lot of sparring partners if he did that.

 

[drop bear]

Or that neither of you spend enough time on the basic defenses and just try straight for the frenzy and end up being sloppy and ineffective with your technique. Or that you in particular don't have a clue what you are talking about.

So you have the high percentage unarmed vs knife defence?

What is the secret?

 

[Drose427]

So you have the high percentage unarmed vs knife defence?

What is the secret?

There isn't one...

2 rules.

1. You're gonna get cut, don't die

2. Don't fight like it's a boxing match...that's a good way to walk right into the blade.

 

[RTKDCMB]

So you have the high percentage unarmed vs knife defence?

What is the secret?

There is no secret, but here are a few simple rules:

1) If you are going to defend against a knife you had better make damn sure you have no other choice.
2) Unless you are extremely lucky you will get cut so you have to accept it, just try to avoid getting killed.
3) Keep it simple.
4) Practice your basics before you try the frenzy and then keep practicing your basics. If you can't stop a simple stab or slash then you have no hope of stopping a frenzy.
5) There is only one percentage that is important - that you are 100% alive.

 

[K-man]

So if we don't get any meaningful result out of the training. Mabye we are training in a flawed manner.

have you ever considered just scrapping it?

Train knife defence under a completely different context.

Scrapping it is not really an option if you are genuinely training to handle what you might find on the street. There is an overlap between knife defence and defence against blunt instruments and firearms. Sure, the chances of confronting a knife are far less than a general stoush but it's the weapon of choice with young kids in Australia.

I don't believe the training is flawed. I have participated in knife defence classes conducted by highly regarded guys and I have watched even more. Against the straight forward attacks you normally see trained I reckon we have a really good system in place I'd be 99% confident with that. Where it gets interesting is training against the 'slice and dice' and 'stabby stabby' attacks I reckon your percentage drops to perhaps 50/50. But against the hidden knife or a trained fighter you just don't want to be there.

What sort of different context are you thinking of?

 

[drop bear]

Scrapping it is not really an option if you are genuinely training to handle what you might find on the street. There is an overlap between knife defence and defence against blunt instruments and firearms. Sure, the chances of confronting a knife are far less than a general stoush but it's the weapon of choice with young kids in Australia.

I don't believe the training is flawed. I have participated in knife defence classes conducted by highly regarded guys and I have watched even more. Against the straight forward attacks you normally see trained I reckon we have a really good system in place I'd be 99% confident with that. Where it gets interesting is training against the 'slice and dice' and 'stabby stabby' attacks I reckon your percentage drops to perhaps 50/50. But against the hidden knife or a trained fighter you just don't want to be there.

What sort of different context are you thinking of?

Come with the idea that physical knife defence doesn't work very well. I mean we train to grab this thing out of mid air and we cant.

 

[drop bear]

There isn't one...

2 rules.

1. You're gonna get cut, don't die

2. Don't fight like it's a boxing match...that's a good way to walk right into the blade.

Every knife defence is a good way to walk into that blade.

Why would boxing really be any lower percentage.

You still have that low percent chance you will knock the guy out before he can cut you. Which is honestly about the same as catching the arm.

 

[K-man]

Every knife defence is a good way to walk into that blade.

Why would boxing really be any lower percentage.

You still have that low percent chance you will knock the guy out before he can cut you. Which is honestly about the same as catching the arm.

Absolutely not. If your training is anything like that get another trainer. The only time you catch the arm directly is with the straight thrust. Even then you are moving back as you reach forward. The rest of the defences are from deflections that result in control of the arm. For the slice and dice attack we practise a type of sticky hands. But everything you do is predicated on minimising body exposure.

Boxing would have little chance you be honest. Your reach to punch is generally shorter than the range of the knife. Better to use a thrusting kick if you are not training hand defences. Then again, any improvisation such as grabbing a handful of dirt, a stick or a chair, even spitting, may give the distraction you need to escape or enter.

 

[Shai Hulud]

Absolutely not. If your training is anything like that get another trainer. The only time you catch the arm directly is with the straight thrust. Even then you are moving back as you reach forward. The rest of the defences are from deflections that result in control of the arm. For the slice and dice attack we practise a type of sticky hands. But everything you do is predicated on minimising body exposure.

Boxing would have little chance you be honest. Your reach to punch is generally shorter than the range of the knife. Better to use a thrusting kick if you are not training hand defences. Then again, any improvisation such as grabbing a handful of dirt, a stick or a chair, even spitting, may give the distraction you need to escape or enter.

I agree. Knives are a special case on their own; the approach to knife defense must be specific. I would probably never attempt to kick the assailant, unless it were to create distance and I was absolutely sure I could get my leg out of there lest he cut it. A leg may have further reach than an arm with a knife, but the latter is capable of fatal injury, much more so than the former at least.

Experienced knife fighters will not lead with the knife. They'll keep it back and use their lead hand to open your defenses up, either with a feint, distracting hand movement, or an opening combative that he'll follow up with a knife attack. KO'ing the assailant would be the last thing on my mind; I'd focus on the immediate threat: the knife. Improvisation is highly recommended here, and I fully support that course of action. The last-ditch option probably ought to be a disarm, and not trying for a combative of your own in hopes of outrunning the blade. The risks are just too great.

Use a chair, broom/mop, even a candelier or a glass/bottle and either neutralize the threat or immediately remove your person from danger by bolting out of there.

 

[RTKDCMB]

You obviously didn't understand what I wrote. Go read it again.

I read it again - you're still wrong.

You still don't understand what I said.

You seem to have trouble telling the difference between a MMA fight and a self defence situation, they are not the same.

Maybe you should go "spar Mike Tyson".

You also seem to have trouble telling the difference between sparring and domestic violence. Mike Tyson's sparring partner is capable of taking care of himself in the controlled environment. Robin Givens is not a trained fighter, she did not agree to be abused or to fear for her life. Maybe you should ask Desiree Washington if she thinks that what he did to her "wasn't even that bad compared to what Tyson did to his opponents in the ring".

Now you're just making up what I didn't even say.

No, you are misrepresenting my position. I did not say that you said said saying. I said that "You seem to me to be of the opinion" which is different than 'You said". Based on the two posts I quoted that is a reasonably logical conclusion.

 

[FriedRice]

I read it again - you're still wrong.

Can't help you don't understand, cya.