How great is gap of damage unarmed strikes (esp punch and kicks) vs weapons? And weapon vs weapons?

Bullsherdog

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Mainstream journalism, biographers and popular media always make it a fuss that Mike Tyson can throw blows with such high PSI that it can break through tanks and how Mas Oyama can chop through a live aggressive bull's horn with one hand.

But this leads me to a big question As many RBSD and military H2H instructors pointed out, pro fighters throw hundreds and hundreds of punches despite how journalists always write about Bruce lee having the power to kill a man with a direct roundhouse.

Yet complete amateurs who never even played a game of baseball can easily KO a muscular man with strong chin in one swing, even knocking his teeth out and you mentioned that without any training at all, an obese nerdy waste can get a $5 hammer at a local store and seriously love up a knight's well made plate armor with one sloppy clumsy swing.

Is the gap really that great and why so? I mean the fact an old man using a 12 ounce stick can easily make someone like Klitschko brothers seriously bleed if he simply throw his stick at the face is making me severely confused and curious.

And its not just unarmed powerful blows with PSI measured by the hundreds, I also am wondering about how different the gap in damage is for different weapons. I mean despite weighing the same and weighing much lighter, a frying pan can knock out someone far easier than say a sai or other Japanese martial arts weapon (esp if amateurs tryt o use either).


Why could a pillow do far more serious damage from a nobody like me than a boxing punch from George Foreman which is measured as being strong enough to pierce car doors?. I use pillows because I was shocked as love to learn that adults who play in pillow fighting have gotten not only bleeding nose and mouth but even broken chins or gash wounds when their kids hit them with the pillow. NOT LYING this happened to my uncle and from a child who is so weak I can carry his whole body with one arm.


It shocks me so much that an untrained person can simply throw a Gatorade drink at someone cand cause a broken nose right away,something that pro boxers have difficulty doing even to out of shape untrained accountants! It also shocks e how someone using a small branch can cause bruses far more easily than someone using Okinawan kobudo weapons such as a Tonfa and Kama!

Shouldn't Tyson be in jail for murder since his punch should have killed random drunks who pissed Tyson off at a local bar? Since his punch should be able to wreck a tank apart? But a mere glass tin metal drinking cup can knock out Ricky Hatton in an instant? (YES this incident really did happen in a bar)?


Is there something sports journalism. martial artist biographers, and TV documentaries seriously leaving out everytime they write about Marciano punching door stalls apart or Brock Lesnar being able to break through a fence by tackling because his recorded sprawl is so full of force?

Please help me understand the inconsistency in effective damage from kicks and punches vs smashing a computer modem over someone's head?
 

Tony Dismukes

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Okaay ... I'm seeing a number of serious misconceptions in your post.

Mike Tyson (even in his prime) could never hit hard enough to penetrate tank armor. Not even close. That's off by several orders of magnitude.

I've read an article by a former high-level student of Mas Oyama stating that the bullfights and the chopping of the bulls horn was staged and fake. I don't have direct knowledge of the matter, but it seems likely that was the case.

Real weapons (knives, swords, sticks, spears, guns, axes, etc) are serious force multipliers. A 12 year old child with a knife can inflict lethal damage more easily than an expert boxer or karateka can with an unarmed punch. that's just physics. Even many objects not designed as weapons (such as a brick, or in your example, a computer monitor) can inflict serious damage in the right circumstances. They're just not optimized for combative handling.

I'm willing to bet cash money that you can not wield a pillow to inflict greater damage than a George Foreman punch. Not unless you pack it with rocks or sew razors on the fringe.

A Gatorade bottle could potentially break someone's nose if you managed to throw it just right. A professional boxer could do it a lot easier with a punch.

I have no idea where you are getting the idea about a small branch inflicting more damage than a tonfa or kama - especially since the kama is designed to cut the flesh and inflict crippling or lethal damage.

Regardless of what Mike Tyson's punches might potentially do to someone, he hasn't killed anyone and therefore won't be charged with murder. Pretty simple, that.

Your whole post seems very reminiscent of another former member here who had a similar username and wrote semi-delusional screeds along similar lines. Did you have an account under another name? If so, you should know that duplicate accounts is a violation of the terms of service for MartialTalk.
 

Kickboxer101

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Can you kill a person with one shot? Yes absolutely, can you punch a guy multiple times and they're still standing? Yes absolutely.

There's no certainty in fights. I'm assuming you don't train because surely anyone who trains wouldn't have such silly ideas. Do you think martial artists are made of steel and can never be hurt that's rubbish. Anyone can knock anyone out what martial arts does is teach you some skills that can come in handy it doesn't turn you into a robot.

I'm assuming you've watched to many Kung fu movies. Ill use an example ip man where he fights 10 black belts and beats them easily. In a real fight against 10 amateurs the guy would maybe take down 1 or 2 maybe 3 at the most then he'd get overwhelmed knocked to the floor and he'd have his head kicked in and he'd be going to the hospital.
 

Buka

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The Gap is ever changing, the Gap is mysterious.

Be the Gap, Danny, be the Gap.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Can you kill a person with one shot? Yes absolutely, can you punch a guy multiple times and they're still standing? Yes absolutely.

I completely mis-read that at first glance, as "Can you kill a person with one shot? Yes absolutely, can you kill a guy multiple times and they're still standing? Yes absolutely." Much more appropriate to the OP in this version, IMO. :D
 

Kickboxer101

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I completely mis-read that at first glance, as "Can you kill a person with one shot? Yes absolutely, can you kill a guy multiple times and they're still standing? Yes absolutely." Much more appropriate to the OP in this version, IMO. :D
OPs got a good story going. According to him military's been doing it all wrong for years instead of hundreds of soldiers all they need to do is send in mike Tyson and he'll destroy all the tanks in minutes lol sounds like a chuck Norris joke
 

Flying Crane

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I completely mis-read that at first glance, as "Can you kill a person with one shot? Yes absolutely, can you kill a guy multiple times and they're still standing? Yes absolutely." Much more appropriate to the OP in this version, IMO. :D
It depends on what you are shooting him with.

A rubber band? A Red Rider BB gun? Unlikely, regardless of shot placement. Although someone could lose an eye.

A .308? Very likely, depending on shot placement.
 

KangTsai

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Woohohoo. Let's martially talk some physics!

Pressure is calculated by resultant force over surface area. So - pressure of a fat man sitting on a chair ≈ 1200N (his weight) /0.25m^2 (surface area)= 4800pa in pressure.

Let's say I punch someone for 6000kpa. Enough to really hurt and maybe knock out. That's the resultant force that moves my fist over the surface area of my fist. If I stab somebody with a knife with the same force, let's say the knife edge is 0.0005m^2, it would result as about 1860000kpa: enough to go right through you. A bullet is even better, because the small mass of the bullet allows it to accelerate exceptionally fast out of a gun and through you, despite it not being that sharp. You should rephrase that question there.
 

KangTsai

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By the way, yes, in theory, Mike Tyson could punch through a tank, except he can't. That same pressure is waaaaaaaaay more than enough to shatter every single thing in his hand against a dense, metal structure.
 

Juany118

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Okaay ... I'm seeing a number of serious misconceptions in your post.

Mike Tyson (even in his prime) could never hit hard enough to penetrate tank armor. Not even close. That's off by several orders of magnitude.

I've read an article by a former high-level student of Mas Oyama stating that the bullfights and the chopping of the bulls horn was staged and fake. I don't have direct knowledge of the matter, but it seems likely that was the case.

Real weapons (knives, swords, sticks, spears, guns, axes, etc) are serious force multipliers. A 12 year old child with a knife can inflict lethal damage more easily than an expert boxer or karateka can with an unarmed punch. that's just physics. Even many objects not designed as weapons (such as a brick, or in your example, a computer monitor) can inflict serious damage in the right circumstances. They're just not optimized for combative handling.

I'm willing to bet cash money that you can not wield a pillow to inflict greater damage than a George Foreman punch. Not unless you pack it with rocks or sew razors on the fringe.

A Gatorade bottle could potentially break someone's nose if you managed to throw it just right. A professional boxer could do it a lot easier with a punch.

I have no idea where you are getting the idea about a small branch inflicting more damage than a tonfa or kama - especially since the kama is designed to cut the flesh and inflict crippling or lethal damage.

Regardless of what Mike Tyson's punches might potentially do to someone, he hasn't killed anyone and therefore won't be charged with murder. Pretty simple, that.

Your whole post seems very reminiscent of another former member here who had a similar username and wrote semi-delusional screeds along similar lines. Did you have an account under another name? If so, you should know that duplicate accounts is a violation of the terms of service for MartialTalk.
The only thing I would comment on is the Gatorade Bottle. If it is full and the seal intact, it is literally like being hit with a brick, until you apply enough force that the bottle bursts. I remember once responding to a call for a fight. There was a shattered windshield so I am looking around for a brick, a baseball bat, something. A witness pointed me to the still intact bottle of Gatorade sitting in the gutter where it landed after one of the participants launched it. It blew my mind.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
 

Balrog

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Mainstream journalism, biographers and popular media always make it a fuss that Mike Tyson can throw blows with such high PSI that it can break through tanks and how Mas Oyama can chop through a live aggressive bull's horn with one hand.
Steel beats flesh and bone every time. Period.
Why could a pillow do far more serious damage from a nobody like me than a boxing punch from George Foreman which is measured as being strong enough to pierce car doors?.
Again - steel beats flesh and bone every time. Period.
Please help me understand the inconsistency in effective damage from kicks and punches vs smashing a computer modem over someone's head?
It's called augmentation. Pretty much anything in the hand, such as a stick, brick or modem, will increase the effectiveness of a technique, up to a point. It's a mixture of leverage, increase of mass in the force formula, and the simple fact that stuff like that is harder than the human body. See my statements above.

This is why I carry a Mag-Lite flashlight and a 26 inch long, 1/2 inch diameter steel pipe in my car. I'm a geocacher, so I can explain the pipe being there as my "Magic Wand of Poking" into holes looking for caches when there might be a critter in the hole. And I also have my keys on a mini-MagLite. I'll take every advantage I can get if I need it.
 

Midnight-shadow

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Could Mike Tyson punch through a tank? I doubt it. Even if he could generate enough force to do so, that same force would be enough to break all the bones in his arm. As we all know from Newton's Third Law of motion "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction". So whatever force you apply with a punch will be dealt back to you at the same time, which is why if you punch a wall you will feel the reverberation in your hand as a result. Not only that but as KangTsai said, pressure of force is greater against a smaller area. If you punch a wall (or a tank) the force of your punch is going to be spread over a large area, reducing the damage you will do to it. At the same time, that same amount of force is being pushed back into your hand, which is a lot smaller area therefore the pressure of the force is a lot higher, resulting in more damage.


Not quite Mike Tyson punching a tank, but it's close enough to demonstrate what I'm saying (even if the movie itself is an embarrassment to cinema). Skip to 1:40 for the punching part.
 
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Tez3

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live aggressive bull's horn

Does the bull know he has an aggressive horn? A live one at that! Are both horns aggressive or just the one? Or is one dead and one alive? So many vital questions that need answering.
 

Balrog

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I've read an article by a former high-level student of Mas Oyama stating that the bullfights and the chopping of the bulls horn was staged and fake. I don't have direct knowledge of the matter, but it seems likely that was the case.
I gotta agree. If you watch this clip, it looks completely bogus.
 

Midnight-shadow

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I gotta agree. If you watch this clip, it looks completely bogus.

Again, I doubt it is real. A bull's horn is made up of 2 main pieces: A Bone core and a Keratin (the stuff that makes up your hair and fingernails) sheath. Looking at the video the guy appears to cut off the horn at the base, which is probably an average of 8-12inches in circumference. That's about a big as most people's forearm, but unlike your forearm which is made up of a mixture of soft tissues, blood vessels, fats and water, the bull's horn is pure toughened bone. Just like punching through a tank the amount of pressure and force to cleanly take off a bull horn greatly outweighs the amount of force it would take to break your arm. I'm guessing what they did was to cut the horn off first and then glue it back on with a mild adhesive which would be a lot easier to knock off with a bare hand.
 

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