How effective is Japanese Ju Jitsu, or judo moves ‪ work on a big person?

Discussion in 'Japanese Martial Arts - General' started by moonhill99, Mar 21, 2015.

  1. moonhill99

    moonhill99 Purple Belt

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    Those flipping, throwing and take-downs techniques work on person 50 pounds or 100 pounds more than you!!!:eek::eek: or even 150 pounds being overweight or a bodybuilder.

    So how can small skinny guy or small skinny girl weighs like a feather almost anorexic do these moves on big person.When they are like 60,100 or 150 pounds more!!








    It is like these people doing these moves on big person like Mike Tyson or some one big like .

    Not saying they can or cannot do it as I have not read enough on Japanese Ju Jitsu, or judo.


    Big person really big.

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    Or would they be better of using karate in self defense?

    :Blackalien:
     
  2. K-man

    K-man Grandmaster

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    It works when you know how! The reality is that most people aren't prepared to spend the time it requires to become proficient. Instinctivley people try to use strength to perform the techniques. Patently, that will not work against a bigger, stronger opponent so you have to learn not to clash physically and to use your own body weight to your advantage.
     
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  3. Drose427

    Drose427 3rd Black Belt

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    Leverage and positioning.

    If you cant take down a considerably larger opponent youre missing those
     
  4. hoshin1600

    hoshin1600 Master of Arts

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    • my opinion is that the Japanese are a very homogenous people and i dont believe that the throwing techniques were ever intended to be used against a much larger opponent but rather a same size opponent wearing the bulk of armor. when there is a very large weight disparity i think it would be very difficult to use a push,pull movement to disrupt your attackers center like you would find in Judo. the Aikido throws in which you are only harmonizing with the attackers action probably would have a much greater chance of being successfull.
     
  5. Shai Hulud

    Shai Hulud Purple Belt

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    When Dr. Kano formulated Judo from the older Jujitsu schools he used to study, one of the cornerstones of his work was the thought that a smaller person could use a much larger person's momentum and force against himself. While in no way gentle (as the "Ju" in the name would have you believe initially), this is the premise of jujitsu in general.

    Many of Dr. Kano's lectures on Kodokan Judo revolved around this idea - that with proper technique, education and physical development, you could learn to grapple a larger person with relative ease. Kano himself and the legendary Kyozo Mifune regularly grappled with Judoka much younger, more limber, and in most cases heavier and taller than they were, yet interestingly they're able to toss them around like rag dolls without the slightest effort. Put hard, quality hours of training into your practice to the end of honing your technique and conditioning your reflexes through training, and you'll see why Judo is where it rightfully is today. :)
     
  6. frank raud

    frank raud Master Black Belt

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    You question whether with proper technique you can actually throw someone bigger than you, and suggest that karate might be better? Maybe, but how concerned is a 220 lb man when an 80 lb child throws a punch? With proper training and commitment, most techniques can be utilised effectively against MOST opponents. Nothing works 100% of the time, or that would be the only technique worth learning. By the way, Isao Okano twice won the open weight category of the All-Japan Judo championships weighing about 176 lbs. For comparison, Yamashita weighed around 280 during his competitive career.
     
  7. frank raud

    frank raud Master Black Belt

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    Teddy Riner is a current judo competitor. He is 6'8" and 280lbs. On occasion, he looses.
     
  8. Mephisto

    Mephisto Black Belt

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    Interesting point about size disparity in generations past. I was discussing this with a friend recently. While size disparity has always existed it's possibly that it is greater in modern cultures where everyone has a very diverse ethnic background. In days of old common people traveled less and people in a given geographic location were all probably from said area and thus had similiar features.

    Skill can over come strength and size but it takes a lot of skill to compensate for great size disparity. I sometimes wonder if a martial artists time wold be better spent lifting weights and getting bigger and stronger. From an evolutionary stand point, looking at the animal kingdom many species have developed traits that enable them to appear bigger During a confrontation. So I think there's a lot of value when it comes to self defense and size. If you're smaller, you're the underdog and at a disadvantage. That's why weight divisions exist in combat sports. A skilled large person will almost always overcome a skilled smaller person. Early ufc may have presented evidence counter to this, but the early fights had a lot of guys that hadn't competed in a nhb format before, and I don't know that there were amateur events to prepare for early ufc. I think now days with the existence of amateur mma we wouldn't see smaller guys doing nearly as well.

    Skill can compensate for lack of size but lack of size is rarely if ever an advantage.
     
  9. hoshin1600

    hoshin1600 Master of Arts

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    While Kano may have given lectures about the ability of judo, this doesnt actually make it 100% true. Kano traveled to Europe and no doubt found himself surrounded by people larger than himself. my question would be from a historical perspective how much of his lectures were based on the reality of tested application and how much where they based on the growing concerns of Japanese inferiority while facing a growing infiltration of western influence. the possibility of Kano using the "feelings of the time" as a marketing pitch for his new idea and system cannot be discounted.

    while Kano may have made claims on how judo worked on larger opponents i highly doubt he foresaw the size of people like modern sport athletes. i am only 5'8 in Japan 6' would have been seen as uncommonly tall. anyone who has had the chance to see in person or stand next to a pro basketball player or american football player or even a hockey player knows that the size difference is mind boggling. at one time in my MA class we had a guy named john who was 6'8 and around 280. this guys hands where twice the size of mine. (funny thing was, that he is a heart surgeon) i can tell you from experience there was no way in heck i was throwing him. i was much more successfull using speed and movement to strike him.
     
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  10. frank raud

    frank raud Master Black Belt

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    By the time Kano was lecturing in Europe, various Europeans and Americans had been training for some time at the Kodokan. As well, many judokas had left Japan and were making a living on the wrestling circuits off Europe and the Americas. Men such as EJ Harrison obtained their black belts by training at the Kodokan. Others, such as the legendary William Fairbairn of Shanghai fame, trained elsewhere but had their diplomas signed by Kano himself. Jiu jitsu practioners and judokas such as Yukio Tani, Taro Miyake and Uyenishi were brought over to England in the late 19th century by Edward Barton Wright, who had trained himself in Japan, and had requested assistance from Kano in bringing over appropriate instructors to England. The music halls where they would demonstrate would have competitions , allowing any body to try to last 5 minutes or pin Tani or his associates. Many a strongman, Cornish wrestler and others tried. Maeda, of later fame for Brazilian jiu jitsu was another famous contender in the wrestling circuits. Kano asked Pop Moore to teach wrestling to the Japanese national team for the 1932 Olympics. Mel Bruno received his black belt from Kano in 1935.

    All of the above is to say, Kano was not working in a vacuum, unaware of the size of Europeans and Americans, and some of the techniques in judo were designed specifically to overcome larger opponents.
     
  11. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    It is complicated. for a judo throw you are not really lifting them as such but tipping over a fulcrum.
     
  12. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    Kuzushi.
     
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  13. ShotoNoob

    ShotoNoob 3rd Black Belt

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    K-man the key, yet the danger of being overpowered by a physically superior opponent are real. The whole reason for weight classes in competitive martial arts.
    |
    I think it was Tony D who put up an encompassing, general definition of Judo. The aim, as another poster commented, is to employ technique & leverage against their physical advantages. In that sense, the physical disadvantage is neutralized or taken away (to the extent possible).
     
  14. K-man

    K-man Grandmaster

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    The danger of being overpowered by a physically stronger opponent is not only real but almost certain as you get older. However, that is normally only the case if you try to oppose physical with physical. If your technique is good enough I rarely find I have a problem controlling much bigger, stronger and younger opponents. In fact I would say, the only time they prevail is when I resort to trying to match them physically.
     
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  15. ShotoNoob

    ShotoNoob 3rd Black Belt

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    I agree with you in principle. That has to be balanced against my experience & what I have observed. In reading about your art & org, I'd have to say you are pretty elite. Let's say someone of your expert qualifications should have the success you've had.
    |
    We've got two guys @ our school who are considerably above average strength. In an all-out sparring match, I would have to break something on them to succeed. I can't just use physical strength & technique to overcome these guys. We have a Master who visits from another branch, and a high-ranking black-belt from same, where I would be faced with like choice. MY dojo rank & file students & instructors, same dilemma.
     
  16. K-man

    K-man Grandmaster

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    Firstly, I am not an expert. There are plenty of guys that I look up to, but I do have reasonable experience against big, young, fit guys. When you are talking of sparring matches, we don't have any of that so that is an entirely different proposition. I am talking of making your techniques work at close range. I don't expect that from rank and file students.

    However, how credible would it be for an instructor, especially in arts like Judo, BJJ, Krav, etc, if he couldn't outperform his students when demonstrating proper technique? This is my major gripe with Aikido instructors. Most of them cannot make their techniques work against total resistance. The fact that they can't gives other martial artists the belief that Aikido isn't effective.
     
  17. Spinedoc

    Spinedoc Purple Belt

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    Yep…One of our senior students is about my size and quite strong. He can also resist techniques quite well. For a long time, I would struggle to move him…now? The only time I struggle is when I try to outmuscle him….when I relax completely…not a single tense muscle in my body, and I move with my center, I can move him with ease, despite the resistance. Tonight, we were doing morotedori tenkan ikkyo, None of the other students could move him well, but I could not only move him, but send him down with ikkyo with some force, and I didn't grab him, didn't tense, simply moved with my center and took his center.
     
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  18. moonhill99

    moonhill99 Purple Belt

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    Okay I think I understand what you all are saying.

    You not really supposed to use force on bigger person because it will not work.
     
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  19. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    judo moves ‪ work on a big person

    When you deal with big person, you will need to borrow his force and then add your force on top of it. In order to do so, you will need to apply "shaking/dragging" principle to force your opponent to commit on something.

    If your opponent

    - yield, you borrow his yielding force.
    - resist. you borrow his resistance force.

    In both cases, you will throw him the same direction that your opponent is moving to a "rear end collision"

    A + B > A
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2015
  20. pgsmith

    pgsmith Master Black Belt

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    I think that all depends upon what a martial artist is trying to accomplish.
    I initially began studying aikido because a very petite 90 pound woman (Lynn Fabia, who was then senior student under Bill Sosa) tossed me bodily onto my face during a seminar. I had done some martial arts training and grew up in a bad part of town so had quite a bit of experience with fighting. At the time, I was 6' tall and weighed about 210. She picked me out for the demonstration at the beginning of the seminar because I was so much larger than she was, and in pretty good shape. She then proceeded to slam me into the mat. Not just once, but several times. I was suitably impressed, and had to start learning. I seriously doubt that lifting weights and getting bigger and stronger would have done her a bit of good. However, her skills as a martial artist were incredibly impressive.
     
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