How does your WC deal with going to the ground...

[geezer]

Whether you get knocked down, taken down, or just slip and fall down, ending up on the ground is often a reality you have to deal with in a fight. So how does your WC address this possibility? What techniques and strategies do you employ to recover?

 

[Marnetmar]

To avoid takedowns, my school actually likes to practice W.C a couple inches closer in than typical W.C range, and it actually helps to neutralize a lot of that. I know a lot of people have the "if he tries to throw you down, chop him in the back of the neck" mentality, but the problem with that is because of the guy's forward momentum you'll more than likely just end up bouncing off.

I also like to incorporate Northern Shaolin techniques into my WC. An example is that when some dude tries to grab my waist/legs to take me down, I bring whichever leg is forward back and shift into a reverse bow/archer stance and then spring back forward not unlike Tai Chi. It sounds silly but it's worked every time.

 

[Kwan Sau]

I also like to incorporate Northern Shaolin techniques into my WC. An example is that when some dude tries to grab my waist/legs to take me down, I bring whichever leg is forward back and shift into a reverse bow/archer stance and then spring back forward not unlike Tai Chi. It sounds silly but it's worked every time.

As always it is sometimes difficult to imagine the 'incorporated technique' you describe...but IMO if one knows WC, there are options contained within the forms without the need to incorporate anything. For example, the footwork Marnetmar mentions (if I am picturing it correctly per his description) seems very similar to how one can use concepts contained in pole form to mitigate attempted takedowns, etc.

Good post Geezer!

 

[Danny T]

... ending up on the ground is often a reality you have to deal with in a fight. So how does your WC address this possibility? What techniques and strategies do you employ to recover?

The question, as I understand it, is that I 'have ended up on the ground' so how does my WC address this not how does my WC address preventing going to the ground.
1. it is situational based. What position am I in, Where is my opponent in relation to me?
2. what pressure is being applied and how?

In order to move on the ground you must be angled on one side or the other. Using the principle of Facing and the side facing stance (Jut Sun Ma) I would shift to either side that allows me to face toward my opponent and move to create distance and move as soon as possible to a Say Ping Dai Ma stance transitioning to my regular stance. As to how and when again is all depends on what the opponent is doing.

In our training we get on the ground and work against a number of different positions as well as vs different takedowns and throws.

 

[Marnetmar]

As always it is sometimes difficult to imagine the 'incorporated technique' you describe...but IMO if one knows WC, there are options contained within the forms without the need to incorporate anything. For example, the footwork Marnetmar mentions (if I am picturing it correctly per his description) seems very similar to how one can use concepts contained in pole form to mitigate attempted takedowns, etc.

Good post Geezer!

And this could be! See, I haven't learned the pole form yet so I'm a bit in the dark on this stuff.

 

[Vajramusti]

Whether you get knocked down, taken down, or just slip and fall down, ending up on the ground is often a reality you have to deal with in a fight. So how does your WC address this possibility? What techniques and strategies do you employ to recover?

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That is an important question. I share some thoughts. A well developed wing chun structure, stance and sense of timing can help you avoid such a situation and allow you to roll over, get up and counter attack.
However you can end up on the ground specially with multiple attackers.
When you (generic -you) do enough wing chun you shape your body and your reactions in a way that you protect your mother line , control your motions
and use or create open lines . You have two hands and two legs- use them all. Together with chum kiu turns and biu jee manipulations- you can throw people off you.
You can control yor and their center of gravity.. even when you are face down. I don't depend on memorized techniques.

Even now I demonstrate these things to students.

 

[mook jong man]

I think at a bare minimum you need to know how to do a bridge and roll , you can mess around trying to Biu Jee people in the throat and eyes when they have you mounted , but it is a lot faster to just bridge and roll.

As a bonus the Wing Chun arm grab counters still work on the ground and they can even be used with the bridge and roll.

I see weird stuff like people doing chi sau while locked between someone's legs and it is just stupid .
The grapplers have already invented the wheel , we don't have to try and invent it again.
Just have a working knowledge of the basic escapes and then modify them so instead of looking for submissions you are looking to strike where ever possible and then get up tactically to your feet.

In the other case where you are down and he is standing , the stamp kicks , side kicks and hook kicks work great from the ground.
Also good to have a few leg lock takedowns to , in case they get past your kicking defences.

 

[Kwan Sau]

And this could be! See, I haven't learned the pole form yet so I'm a bit in the dark on this stuff.

Well then, I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this topic once you have learned the pole form and its applications! Thanks again for the good conversation.

 

[Xue Sheng]

One school I trained at had a kind of Ground technique, But it was more like a getting off the ground technique that basically was kicking the guy in the legs to back him up or break his knees. I did not train it and I saw it trained only once.

 

[Kwan Sau]

A well developed wing chun structure, stance and sense of timing can help you avoid such a situation and allow you to roll over, get up and counter attack. You have two hands and two legs- use them all. Together with chum kiu turns and biu jee manipulations- you can throw people off you.

Yes, absolutely!!! I agree 100%! Good Yip Man Wing Chun has lots of options once one dissects the forms, etc. Well said Joy!

 

[Kwan Sau]

I think at a bare minimum you need to know how to do a bridge and roll , you can mess around trying to Biu Jee people in the throat and eyes when they have you mounted , but it is a lot faster to just bridge and roll.

apples to oranges Mook. One scenario damages, the other simply reverses the situation provided it was successful... just my opinion.

As a bonus the Wing Chun arm grab counters still work on the ground. [In the other case where you are down and he is standing , the stamp kicks , side kicks and hook kicks work great from the ground. Also good to have a few leg lock takedowns to , in case they get past your kicking defences

Heck yeah!

 

[mook jong man]

apples to oranges Mook. One scenario damages, the other simply reverses the situation provided it was successful... just my opinion.



Heck yeah!

If they know what they are doing , they are just waiting for you to extend your arms trying to reach for their throat or eyes and then they arm bar you.


In my bridge and roll , I roll them off and then roll straight on top of them with an elbow strike almost all in one motion.
I use the momentum from the roll to power the elbow strike.

 

[Kwan Sau]

In my bridge and roll , I roll them off and then roll straight on top of them with an elbow strike almost all in one motion.
I use the momentum from the roll to power the elbow strike.

Cool! A good skill to have in the toolbox! Thx.

 

[Xue Sheng]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That is an important question. I share some thoughts. A well developed wing chun structure, stance and sense of timing can help you avoid such a situation and allow you to roll over, get up and counter attack.
However you can end up on the ground specially with multiple attackers.
When you (generic -you) do enough wing chun you shape your body and your reactions in a way that you protect your mother line , control your motions
and use or create open lines . You have two hands and two legs- use them all. Together with chum kiu turns and biu jee manipulations- you can throw people off you.
You can control yor and their center of gravity.. even when you are face down. I don't depend on memorized techniques.

Even now I demonstrate these things to students.

Wish I read that before I posted because that is pretty much what I saw, and the guy teaching it and you share a sifu so maybe that is where it came from

 

[geezer]

In my WT I view anti-grappling as an method to escape and recover your structure in a stand-up, striking art as compared to straight up grappling which seek the grappling range--clinch, throw, go to the ground and beat your opponent there. Personally when I was young I liked grappling and If I were a kid today, I'd probably be training grappling. It's got some great stuff, but it's not WC. We solve the same problems differently. I found the following video that compares and contrasts typical grappling responses with some "WT" branch anti-grappling. I've had some success with some of the stuff shown, at least against unskilled attackers, for example:

Using your kicks to create distance on the ground- 0:28-0:44
Following up after using kicks, recovering to standing up position- 0:58-1:02
Using close kicks from your back to prevent a mount- 2:00-2:15

I have not had success using stop-kicks and chain punches to stop somebody who really knows how to shoot-in effectively -- as supposedly shown here- 3:04-3:45
On the other hand, I have accomplished this by keeping my legs back and moving back and aside while using chain punches, --or by head control with a gum-sau, and if the attacker still gets through, using a very un-WC (but effective) wrestler's sprawl!



Also in addition to standing up as shown above (0:58-1:02) I have my students practice a simple stand-up as shown here:

OK, so it's labelled "BJJ". Sorry I couldn't find a similar clip of WC. But c'mon. Kicking from the ground and standing up is a universal self-defense skill.

 

[yak sao]

and if the attacker still gets through, using a very un-WC (but effective) wrestler's sprawl!

I think we may have had this discussion before, but I consider the sprawl to be very much in line with WC principles as we are yielding to our opponent's force and using not just our arms but our whole body as a sort of jum sau or fook sau.

LT demo'd this very principle back around 1999 at one of the LA fighter camps.
He explained how "fook" means to control from on top, not just with the arm, but the whole body can do this as well.

 

[Kwan Sau]

I think we may have had this discussion before, but I consider the sprawl to be very much in line with WC principles as we are yielding to our opponent's force and using not just our arms but our whole body as a sort of jum sau or fook sau.

LT demo'd this very principle back around 1999 at one of the LA fighter camps.
He explained how "fook" means to control from on top, not just with the arm, but the whole body can do this as well.

I am in agreement with yak! Same goes for my WC.

 

[geezer]

I think we may have had this discussion before, but I consider the sprawl to be very much in line with WC principles as we are yielding to our opponent's force and using not just our arms but our whole body as a sort of jum sau or fook sau.

LT demo'd this very principle back around 1999 at one of the LA fighter camps.
He explained how "fook" means to control from on top, not just with the arm, but the whole body can do this as well.

Did I say sprawl? Of course I meant full body jum-sau! That's exactly what it is. Thanks for that, Yak.

 

[drop bear]

I think we may have had this discussion before, but I consider the sprawl to be very much in line with WC principles as we are yielding to our opponent's force and using not just our arms but our whole body as a sort of jum sau or fook sau.

LT demo'd this very principle back around 1999 at one of the LA fighter camps.
He explained how "fook" means to control from on top, not just with the arm, but the whole body can do this as well.

See I still don't get this. Why does it make a difference if it is in line with WC principles or not?

Considering the double leg is probably not in line with wc .

 

[yak sao]

See I still don't get this. Why does it make a difference if it is in line with WC principles or not?

Considering the double leg is probably not in line with wc .

WC is not a style of fighting. It is a system of interconnected principles that are there to guide your body into methods of dissolving your opponent's force and also for delivering your own force into your attacks. The forms, the chi sau, etc. are there to teach you how to do this in the most economical, streamlined, efficient way.

To be truly efficient, a WC fighter should be trying to strip away as much as possible, so that only the least amount of energy, movement etc are used. As you become more and more adept at this, the WC fighter's movements are quite fluid and natural, not contrived in any way.

If you try to cherry pick and use this technique from this style and another technique from another style, you are left with a bunch of mismatched, disjointed movements and you are no longer moving in a fluid natural way.....that's why it's important.