How bad does not sparring effect you in a real street fight situation ?

[MJS]

Does kata reflect a street attack? Is it artificial? Is it controlled?

Is scenario training artificial? Is that controlled?

Not my definition this is yours. Artificial controlled training is no good for self defence.

So if kata and scenario training are artificial how do you justify it?

IMHO, everything is controlled, to an extent. Short of going out to the bar and starting a fight on the street, then as I said, everything is controlled to a point. As for kata...as I've said in other debates on the pros/cons of kata, I do it, mainly because in all of the arts I've either done or currently do, there's kata. Personally, I feel that in many cases, people are just going through the moves, because the person teaching, has no clue what the moves are. During my training years, I've ran into this many times. Fortunately, that has changed. No, of course we're not going to actually fight like we do the moves in kata, however, we can isolate certain moves and have an actual useful tech.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Which is nice but you did not really answer the OPs question.

Is sparring beneficial to self defence?

Is not sparring detrimental to self defence?

Actually if you look closely it does answer the question you just have to read between the lines but it is pretty obvious!

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

However, since reading between the lines is harder for some people I will make it more plain.

Physical contact is essential for a martial practitioner interested in self-defense. Meaning, having consistent physical exposure to contact through multiple outlets such as sparring, weapon trainig and sparring, force on force airsoft training, two man kata, grappling, Scenario Based Training with predator armor or bulletman suits, etc. is all important and beneficial for self-defense. Neglecting to have training in any of these areas may hurt your chances in a violent encounter. Staying in your systems sand box where you only spar, only do forms, only do two man kata, etc. may put you in a position where you are only good at defending against that specific style of physical movement. In IRT I opt for instead a well rounded approach of sparring, grappling, scenario based training, etc. I also realize that practitioners need to experience other teachers in other systems and people that move differently. Practitioner's should also stay up on what criminals are doing, utilizing and training in. I personally myself have utilized what I know in real life work related situations and let me tell you that it never goes just like in the Training Hall. That is why you need lots of variation in your training to prepare you.

Now having said all of the above that is how I train and it allows you to have lots of experiences, adrenaline rushes, etc. This type of training should keep you "edgy" and give you an advantage in a moment and hopefully that advantage will be enough but there are of course no guarantee's.

Also, I know people who have been effective in self-defense with no training at all. However, they had the mind set to survive and that is exactly what they did! Training should help but in the end it always comes down to each unique individual, their skill sets, their attributes and their will to survive!

There are "no guarantee's" in anything and "no absolutes" in the realm of self-defense and personal protection!

 

[aznsparks]

The biggest issue is to not do anything on the street and essentially get beaten into the ground.
Sparring solves that because you're used to getting hit, and moreso in a high pressure situation than those who don't.

However, without sparring, it's still possible to do well on the street. You simply have to be prepared enough, which is easier to be if you spar. If you're ready to take hits and give them, you won't freeze up.


A lot of the time you can practise everything you would do in sparring without it, just a little more complicated.

 

[K-man]

The biggest issue is to not do anything on the street and essentially get beaten into the ground.
Sparring solves that because you're used to getting hit, and moreso in a high pressure situation than those who don't.

However, without sparring, it's still possible to do well on the street. You simply have to be prepared enough, which is easier to be if you spar. If you're ready to take hits and give them, you won't freeze up.

A lot of the time you can practise everything you would do in sparring without it, just a little more complicated.

First let me say welcome to MT. :wavey:

If you have been following the thread sparring means different things to different people. You don't have to sport spar to develop tolerance to being hit. We have a circle drill where we hit each other really hard, Systema have drills where we punch each other the same.

The hardest strike I have ever taken was in an aikido class two weeks ago, and I am used to taking some heavy hits. Please don't tell me you are going to be one of the people insisting that unless you are fighting in the ring you are not testing your technique.
:asian:

 

[drop bear]

First let me say welcome to MT. :wavey:

If you have been following the thread sparring means different things to different people. You don't have to sport spar to develop tolerance to being hit. We have a circle drill where we hit each other really hard, Systema have drills where we punch each other the same.

The hardest strike I have ever taken was in an aikido class two weeks ago, and I am used to taking some heavy hits. Please don't tell me you are going to be one of the people insisting that unless you are fighting in the ring you are not testing your technique.
:asian:

Can you show us those drills?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

If you have been following the thread sparring means different things to different people. You don't have to sport spar to develop tolerance to being hit. We have a circle drill where we hit each other really hard, Systema have drills where we punch each other the same.

First of all, I question the use of the term, "sport spar." What you call sport sparring is simply free, or undirected sparring.

The commonality between free sparring and the kinds of training you see in arts that don't utilize it is that you have a resisting opponent who is actually trying to hit you.

Depending on how you set up the training, you can add that element of randomness that sparring exponents often promote.

Personally, I find a mix of more directed practice and free practice to be the most beneficial.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

The biggest issue is to not do anything on the street and essentially get beaten into the ground.
Sparring solves that because you're used to getting hit, and moreso in a high pressure situation than those who don't.

However, without sparring, it's still possible to do well on the street. You simply have to be prepared enough, which is easier to be if you spar. If you're ready to take hits and give them, you won't freeze up.


A lot of the time you can practise everything you would do in sparring without it, just a little more complicated.

Welcome to the board as well

If you haven't done so, I would suggest going back about 10 pages to get an idea of why many of us don't feel sparring is optimal training for real world altercations. I for one go as far as saying sparring (in the general sense that 'sparring' is usually thought of) is detrimental because it uses an artificial rule set, a controlled environment and doesn't take the altercation to a conclusion.

Here is an example: (Courtesy of Iain Abernethy's article http://iainabernethy.co.uk/article/how-spar-street-part-1-iain-abernethy

Great for a sport competition.



Not so good in the street.

 

[K-man]

Can you show us those drills?

I couldn't find any video but theses two sites describe close to what we do.

Pushing Drill


- Working as a group, circle up with one person in the middle.


- Person in the middle receiving pushes - keeping structure, relaxed, moving feet as necessary


- Pushes start light, just enough to change them a bit/work with good intention


- Each person in the group takes their turn in the middle


- 2nd round, pushes come a little harder and faster


- Each person in the group takes their turn in the middle


- 3rd round, again - pushes come a bit harder and faster


- Each person in the group takes their turn in the middle


- 4th round +, slow back down and now go thru the same process as above but with fists pushing


Take it as far as you want, really look after one another though, you should be watching one another’s reactions - when the person stops moving properly it is time to change to someone else (or back off on the pressure)


- Subsequent rounds, if your group is right and you’re all working on the same page - change pushes to punches and go through the same progression.


- Last round (and a bit of a laugh!), the person in the middle gets to hit back!! Careful……..
http://www.systemanz.com/sessionexample3.htm

The punches can be as hard or as soft as you like depending on who is in the middle.

... and this one is similar to what we did in Toronto.

The drills were then about walking towards your partner along a line, and relaxing and letting your body move when you contact the person, not moving before but letting your body and breathing do the work, this was done in different ways eyes closed, backwards walking towards each other and with arm/fist out. i felt the fear building up before sometimes and continous breathing was again the key.

A nice rolling exercise was you both had to roll into each other, feel the flow and let your bodys contact and relaxing not resisting, very nice feeling, almost like roll- dancing.


Then your partner was walking in and punching you and you had to move away – breathing and continuous moving not stopping was emphasized, then faster and partner starts closer to you, until you were moving into a good position – a space where the fist was not. Moving towards the space.. Then transitioning when the feeling/positioning/timing was right into a takedown and striking.The drills were then about walking towards your partner along a line, and relaxing and letting your body move when you contact the person, not moving before but letting your body and breathing do the work, this was done in different ways eyes closed, backwards walking towards each other and with arm/fist out. i felt the fear building up before sometimes and continous breathing was again the key.

A nice rolling exercise was you both had to roll into each other, feel the flow and let your bodys contact and relaxing not resisting, very nice feeling, almost like roll- dancing.


Then your partner was walking in and punching you and you had to move away – breathing and continuous moving not stopping was emphasized, then faster and partner starts closer to you, until you were moving into a good position – a space where the fist was not. Moving towards the space.. Then transitioning when the feeling/positioning/timing was right into a takedown and striking.
http://thomashogarth.com/tag/walking/page/3/

 

[K-man]

First of all, I question the use of the term, "sport spar." What you call sport sparring is simply free, or undirected sparring.

The commonality between free sparring and the kinds of training you see in arts that don't utilize it is that you have a resisting opponent who is actually trying to hit you.

Depending on how you set up the training, you can add that element of randomness that sparring exponents often promote.

Personally, I find a mix of more directed practice and free practice to be the most beneficial.

Because of the need to define 'sparring' I am calling the type of sparring you normally see in competition or the clips drop bear posted 'sport sparring' because it is the give and take you see in the ring. So call it what you like, 'free sparring' is cool. Undirected sparring could include the type of training we do so that is a more generic term.

Your second para is spot on. You have a resisting opponent who is trying to hit you. In your 'free sparring' each one is normally trying to attack the other where in our training one person is attacking and the other is defending, or in our case engaging.

I agree totally that in many situations you could employ both types of training that you describe but for us the free sparring really is not relevant to what we do.
:asian:

 

[drop bear]

I couldn't find any video but theses two sites describe close to what we do.

The punches can be as hard or as soft as you like depending on who is in the middle.

... and this one is similar to what we did in Toronto.

This?


http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tMNN5dINoFw

 

[K-man]

This?

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tMNN5dINoFw

That vid is more turning and taking on whoever is there. Our circle is all against one but normally with the middle guy defending only. Then occasionally we'll give him a go at fighting back. We do the same in Krav but the Krav is a little more rigid than the Systema. That is because the Systema is also teaching you to respond from a relaxed posture and absorb the strike.
More like this ...
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SDRoZ_bnBlQ

In the Krav circle work it is all about fighting back and you are moving to get in one or two hard strikes before moving to another attacker. It can also include weapons in which case the guy in the middle has to decide quickly who to dispose of first.
:asian:

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Because of the need to define 'sparring' I am calling the type of sparring you normally see in competition or the clips drop bear posted 'sport sparring' because it is the give and take you see in the ring. So call it what you like, 'free sparring' is cool. Undirected sparring could include the type of training we do so that is a more generic term.

I agree. You could also say the same of drills, kata, or scenarios; they also need to be defined. You don't "spar," but as you say, undirected sparring could include the type of training that you do. At the same time, step "sparring" is essentially kata.

The problem with discussions of this nature is that they begin on a false premise that kata, drills, scenarios, and sparring, are all separate entities and that one type of training is more 'real' or superior than others. Which is really not the case.

The arguments made from both directions are generally made through the lens of how individual posters view the words. How many people have you seen say 'kata,' specifically in reference to solo forms as one would do in karate, taekwondo, or tai chi with no clue that kata can also be partnered? Or how many people view sparring strictly as training for contest fighting?

In fact, it is not drills, sparring or kata that makes the difference, but the elements of resistance and aliveness in training. Yes, training to specific ends is important too, but without resistance and aliveness, it does not matter how specific the end are. Which comes back to what was said earlier in this thread about good vs. bad scenarios and drills. And of course, you have good vs. bad sparring, both of which can occur in the realm of sport.

The only reason that I question the term, 'sport' sparring is that sport sparring is almost as generic as saying sparring, as what constitutes 'sport' differs from art to art.

To be clear, I actually agree with the statement that you made; you don't need sparring to develop a tolerance to being hit.

 

[drop bear]

Seeing as how it is coming up in other threads.

So far sparring is the best alternative I have seen. As people scoff at sparring they do not present their own evidence that what they do works at all

OK you train for the street. Then show evidence of that. Show your system tested in the street if that is the focus.

One question regarding sparring.

Without it how do you know if your instruction is any good?

All the theories in the world are fine. But if you can drop everybody in the room using a limited rule set. Then why are you even there?

Many instructors hide behind not sparring as a method of disguising their lack of ability.

 

[drop bear]

I agree. You could also say the same of drills, kata, or scenarios; they also need to be defined. You don't "spar," but as you say, undirected sparring could include the type of training that you do. At the same time, step "sparring" is essentially kata.

The problem with discussions of this nature is that they begin on a false premise that kata, drills, scenarios, and sparring, are all separate entities and that one type of training is more 'real' or superior than others. Which is really not the case.

The arguments made from both directions are generally made through the lens of how individual posters view the words. How many people have you seen say 'kata,' specifically in reference to solo forms as one would do in karate, taekwondo, or tai chi with no clue that kata can also be partnered? Or how many people view sparring strictly as training for contest fighting?

In fact, it is not drills, sparring or kata that makes the difference, but the elements of resistance and aliveness in training. Yes, training to specific ends is important too, but without resistance and aliveness, it does not matter how specific the end are. Which comes back to what was said earlier in this thread about good vs. bad scenarios and drills. And of course, you have good vs. bad sparring, both of which can occur in the realm of sport.

The only reason that I question the term, 'sport' sparring is that sport sparring is almost as generic as saying sparring, as what constitutes 'sport' differs from art to art.

To be clear, I actually agree with the statement that you made; you don't need sparring to develop a tolerance to being hit.

So how do you develop a tolerance to being hit?

 

[K-man]

So how do you develop a tolerance to being hit?

Perhaps you could read the posts in this thread where I, and others, have described alternate training for conditioning.

 

[PhotonGuy]

If you want good instruction on how to handle a streetfight, you might want to go to a seminar being taught by this guy Rory Miller. Do a google search and you can learn about him. I went to one of his seminars, he's a really smart guy and he really knows his stuff.

 

[K-man]

If you want good instruction on how to handle a streetfight, you might want to go to a seminar being taught by this guy Rory Miller. Do a google search and you can learn about him. I went to one of his seminars, he's a really smart guy and he really knows his stuff.

Thanks for the tip. The first on I looked at was this one ...
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XvlqicOBSjQ&list=PLNJlkYIxT5Vc93aaEpL1OSDZpRRA-hdwC
Which is pretty much what most of us have been saying anyway.
:asian:

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

So how do you develop a tolerance to being hit?

Really? This has been addressed by others on this thread quite a few times over eighteen pages.

Arts that do not have sparring, fitness oriented programs not withstanding, generally have hard contact oriented drills/kata/waza/whatever term the art uses. Additionally, they utilize drills that have a random element. Again, this has been addressed several times in this thread.

One place I trained years ago had us lined up with partners delivering blows to each other's stomachs. I'm not sure how good an idea it was at the time, but being an invincible teen, I did not question it. And that was a TKD school.

Personally, I'm an advocate of sparring mixed with other training elements. Aside from the advantages that have already been discussed, it's fun and students look forward to it. I do think that when sparring reduces itself to two people going at it trying to dominate each other that it loses some of its benefit. Sparring should be where you try specific things out.

When my students spar, I tell them to utilize the things that we just trained on so that they can translate them from a drill/kata setting to a more random/alive setting.

Not saying that this is the only way to accomplish this, but I think that sparring does kill a lot of birds with one stone.

 

[drop bear]

Really? This has been addressed by others on this thread quite a few times over eighteen pages.

Arts that do not have sparring, fitness oriented programs not withstanding, generally have hard contact oriented drills/kata/waza/whatever term the art uses. Additionally, they utilize drills that have a random element. Again, this has been addressed several times in this thread.

One place I trained years ago had us lined up with partners delivering blows to each other's stomachs. I'm not sure how good an idea it was at the time, but being an invincible teen, I did not question it. And that was a TKD school.

Personally, I'm an advocate of sparring mixed with other training elements. Aside from the advantages that have already been discussed, it's fun and students look forward to it. I do think that when sparring reduces itself to two people going at it trying to dominate each other that it loses some of its benefit. Sparring should be where you try specific things out.

When my students spar, I tell them to utilize the things that we just trained on so that they can translate them from a drill/kata setting to a more random/alive setting.

Not saying that this is the only way to accomplish this, but I think that sparring does kill a lot of birds with one stone.

I think the head is the issue. I do advocate conditioning as a drill. But I have never met someone who would think standing there and getting punched in the head would be OK.

Somehow it is better if you are punching back.