How appliable is aikido for self-defense?

[Gerry Seymour]

Of course you have to teach the psychomotor skills before you just start beating on people lol. And most of the actual techniques taught can be interchangeable with many many other styles out there. The difference is in the training methodology and the psychological aspects. If all it took to be able to effectively defend one's self was learning a few moves, you wouldn't have so many black belts in pretty much any discipline getting beat up in street fights. It's what sets Krav Maga and other reality based systems apart from many other styles.

If you take a person who practices a different style... For example Aikido since it is the original topic and run them through realistic full contact blitz attack scenarios over and over by people who are attacking them with a variety of very violent and unorthodox attacks, you will quickly find that Aikido practitioner being able to better defend themselves. The difference between being an effective self defense art and being a sport or traditional "art" that is good for fitness and self improvement and lacking in realistic self defense aptitude has almost nothing to do with what "style" you practice and everything to do with HOW you train.

In my personal experience... And I know there ARE exceptions, most traditional arts poorly prepare their students for violence because of how they train, not because any one system is inherently superior.

I will be writing some new posts about just this sort of thing on my blog if you ever want to read my babbling nonsense! It's something that I'm obviously passionate about since my ability to train others effectively can be the difference between their survival as well as providing the tools necessary to make an arrest with a minimum amount of force necessary. I'm currently working on what is going to probably end up being a few posts about the strengths...and many problems with training scars created when cops train in Brazilian jiu-jitsu alone. Like all arts, it's important to diversify

I think we're mostly in agreement here. You made the same point here: "The difference between being an effective self defense art and being a sport or traditional "art" that is good for fitness and self improvement and lacking in realistic self defense aptitude has almost nothing to do with what "style" you practice and everything to do with HOW you train."

That's really my point. KM is effective (when taught well, of course) because of the training methods used. More and more, I'm starting to see many of those same methods show up in TMA dojos, as well. I think it's part of the positive influence KM has had.

 

[drop bear]

Of what relevence to me or people I work beside while I am pushing away understandably hostile young men or even some times women in people processing centre is it to know "most people" never use self defence? I cannot even leave in evening without people demand money off of me..

So tell me it is more than platitude to say "most people"?? Who are "most people" in this case and what is the worth of their view of how to defend when they have no need of it nor experience of it???

I am confused.. this is not thread about Aikido as effective defence?

if you are willing to put your head on the block. you can use what makes you feel comfortable.

 

[the42cop]

Heard once, if you're the toughest guy in your school, you need to find a new school.

And I'm just here upset that I didn't think to use your awesome profile pic! Love it lol

 

[justkool141]

No very


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[justkool141]

Not*


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[JP3]

I think what DB is getting at is that in a Judo or Bjj gym you have an extremely high chance of getting tapped out every time you roll. You're actually fighting someone else who is doing everything (within the rules) they can to stop you from getting them into a compromising position.

I'm not sure that exists in Aikido sparring.

You're right, it doesn't regularly appear in aikido, or any MA type of, sparring, unless you "put it in" as judo and BJJ regularly do.

You've got to go "live" to really check and see if you can do what you're training to do, or if you're just learning a new way to dance. To be honest, I didn't learn to "fight" in aikido class, but now, when I have to do something, the aikido is definitely there and it works. Maybe I'm just a mean old guy, could be that, too.

 

[drop bear]

You're right, it doesn't regularly appear in aikido, or any MA type of, sparring, unless you "put it in" as judo and BJJ regularly do.

You've got to go "live" to really check and see if you can do what you're training to do, or if you're just learning a new way to dance. To be honest, I didn't learn to "fight" in aikido class, but now, when I have to do something, the aikido is definitely there and it works. Maybe I'm just a mean old guy, could be that, too.

even drills to a certain degree. resisted drills are not compliant drills done quickly.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You're right, it doesn't regularly appear in aikido, or any MA type of, sparring, unless you "put it in" as judo and BJJ regularly do.

You've got to go "live" to really check and see if you can do what you're training to do, or if you're just learning a new way to dance. To be honest, I didn't learn to "fight" in aikido class, but now, when I have to do something, the aikido is definitely there and it works. Maybe I'm just a mean old guy, could be that, too.

There is a persistent problem with going all-out in most arts. I've seen hands broken from someone going a bit too fast on some techniques. If people ever went all-out and actually found some of these techniques (you find them, you don't generate them), there would be too many injuries. Even rolling in BJJ, you can't really go all-out with some techniques; those arm locks can break an arm in a split second, but are applied relatively slowly for safety reasons. And the same goes for striking arts. If you really go "live" and try with everything you have to hurt the other guy...he's probably going to get hurt (or you are). You just can't do things like that in a realistic way without risking injury. How close to "live" you can get really depends upon the skill involved (more skill creates more safety and control), what techniques are in use, and how much risk of injury you are willing to accept.

 

[Steve]

There is a persistent problem with going all-out in most arts. I've seen hands broken from someone going a bit too fast on some techniques. If people ever went all-out and actually found some of these techniques (you find them, you don't generate them), there would be too many injuries. Even rolling in BJJ, you can't really go all-out with some techniques; those arm locks can break an arm in a split second, but are applied relatively slowly for safety reasons. And the same goes for striking arts. If you really go "live" and try with everything you have to hurt the other guy...he's probably going to get hurt (or you are). You just can't do things like that in a realistic way without risking injury. How close to "live" you can get really depends upon the skill involved (more skill creates more safety and control), what techniques are in use, and how much risk of injury you are willing to accept.

Just speaking for Bjj, you resist the techniques all out. I may not break your elbow, but I should be able to get you to the point where you have no option but to submit, while you're working 100% to avoid that.

 

[jaguarlives]

Hi folks.

Aikido is out of the race. I heard that for self defense it's not really helpful and that the stuff doesn't work in real life.

Also the injury risk seems to high to me.

Atm I am considering krav maga. But I'm not sure if this is really interesting enough for me. I need something which also
looks cool and interesting. Otherwise it would just bore me like boxing. Boxing is so boring I'd never want to learn it.

Do you know enough about Aikido to say that it doesn't work? Have you been to an actual school and watched what they do? As far as interesting, it is very interesting and looks very beautiful or cool. I suggest that you look at some of the videos on a youtube channel called Aikido Flow , they might give you a little more insight into the art. Also look at Larry Tatum's clips on Kenpo Karate, this system also offers a lot of variety and depth as well as having an aesthetic appeal.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Just speaking for Bjj, you resist the techniques all out. I may not break your elbow, but I should be able to get you to the point where you have no option but to submit, while you're working 100% to avoid that.

You can resist 100% (and often will), but the guy applying isn't actually applying 100%. He doesn't, because if he did and your resistance wasn't sufficient, he'd simply break your arm.

 

[Hanzou]

You're right, it doesn't regularly appear in aikido, or any MA type of, sparring, unless you "put it in" as judo and BJJ regularly do.

You've got to go "live" to really check and see if you can do what you're training to do, or if you're just learning a new way to dance. To be honest, I didn't learn to "fight" in aikido class, but now, when I have to do something, the aikido is definitely there and it works. Maybe I'm just a mean old guy, could be that, too.

In all of my interactions with Aikido, it just reminds me of a form of Yoga or dancing. I can definitely see the appeal, since Aikido demonstrations are quite lovely and cool. You get to "throw" people around without getting your hands dirty, or hardly even break a sweat. Judoka and Jiujitieros are sweaty and grimy in comparison where someone is constantly in your face grabbing you, and yanking you around trying turn you into a pretzel.

I don't know... I just find Aikido randori far too soft. You got to get in there and grab that lapel and yank that person around and force them to react. You got to grip their sleeves or pants and force them to stop you from taking them to the mat. You got to put on gloves and start punching and kicking and force them to close the distance. Just once I want to see an Aikido school bring in a Muay Thai, Boxer, or MMA striker into their dojo and have the Aikidoka attempt their counters. Hell, they could do it themselves. One student wears gloves and is the "bad guy" and goes all out with kicks, grabs, and punches, while the other student is the Aikidoka and he has to fight back only using Aikido.

Maybe they already do that in some dojos. I certainly hope they do.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In all of my interactions with Aikido, it just reminds me of a form of Yoga or dancing. I can definitely see the appeal, since Aikido demonstrations are quite lovely and cool. You get to "throw" people around without getting your hands dirty, or hardly even break a sweat. Judoka and Jiujitieros are sweaty and grimy in comparison where someone is constantly in your face grabbing you, and yanking you around trying turn you into a pretzel.

I don't know... I just find Aikido randori far too soft. You got to get in there and grab that lapel and yank that person around and force them to react. You got to grip their sleeves or pants and force them to stop you from taking them to the mat. You got to put on gloves and start punching and kicking and force them to close the distance. Just once I want to see an Aikido school bring in a Muay Thai, Boxer, or MMA striker into their dojo and have the Aikidoka attempt their counters. Hell, they could do it themselves. One student wears gloves and is the "bad guy" and goes all out with kicks, grabs, and punches, while the other student is the Aikidoka and he has to fight back only using Aikido.

Maybe they already do that in some dojos. I certainly hope they do.

When you say "he has to fight back only using Aikido", I infer that you're referring to those branches of Ueshiba's art that don't use much (or any) striking, and use soft locks. Within the range of Aikido, there is a lot that doesn't require that "flow". Aikido, if the focus on aiki is missing (which does happen at times when attacks are coming hard), can end up looking a lot like Judo. Or it can end up looking a lot like a striking art (because those strikes set up the aiki). Or it can end up looking like a blend.

 

[drop bear]

You can resist 100% (and often will), but the guy applying isn't actually applying 100%. He doesn't, because if he did and your resistance wasn't sufficient, he'd simply break your arm.

not really. many submissions don't require pain compliance to work. they are also joint immobilizations so so you can holds a guy in that lock forever. so that hold point is the resisted fight. not so much the lock itself.

it gets kind of conceptual a bit from there. the idea is that if you can dominate the fight you don't necessarily have to realistically train the finish moves.

 

[Steve]

You can resist 100% (and often will), but the guy applying isn't actually applying 100%. He doesn't, because if he did and your resistance wasn't sufficient, he'd simply break your arm.

I don't know. In Bjj, that just doesn't happen. Injuries occur but aren't very common. Yiuve also done judo. Hopefully yiu understand what I mean.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

not really. many submissions don't require pain compliance to work. they are also joint immobilizations so so you can holds a guy in that lock forever. so that hold point is the resisted fight. not so much the lock itself.

it gets kind of conceptual a bit from there. the idea is that if you can dominate the fight you don't necessarily have to realistically train the finish moves.

That's true. I'm talking about the ones that actually put a joint at risk. Anything that simply immobilizes can be used fairly safely, but an arm bar is not among those. And in many self-defense arts, immobilizations are used less than destructions (which are practiced as pain compliance in the dojo).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't know. In Bjj, that just doesn't happen. Injuries occur but aren't very common. Yiuve also done judo. Hopefully yiu understand what I mean.

I agree they don't. And it's because the practitioners use control. I use an arm bar as an example because it is a fairly clean one. If I don't mind breaking an arm, I put it on hard, fast, and past the breaking point. If I'm training with a partner, I can do at least one of those - two if my skill and control is up (and they have good control of their body, too), but not all three.

 

[Hanzou]

When you say "he has to fight back only using Aikido", I infer that you're referring to those branches of Ueshiba's art that don't use much (or any) striking, and use soft locks. Within the range of Aikido, there is a lot that doesn't require that "flow". Aikido, if the focus on aiki is missing (which does happen at times when attacks are coming hard), can end up looking a lot like Judo. Or it can end up looking a lot like a striking art (because those strikes set up the aiki). Or it can end up looking like a blend.

Yeah, I suppose I'm talking about Aikikai branch, since that's the most prevalent.

Example:

I simply don't find any of that very believable.

 

[Steve]

I agree they don't. And it's because the practitioners use control. I use an arm bar as an example because it is a fairly clean one. If I don't mind breaking an arm, I put it on hard, fast, and past the breaking point. If I'm training with a partner, I can do at least one of those - two if my skill and control is up (and they have good control of their body, too), but not all three.

But you're doing it at full speed against a partner who is defending 100%

 

[Gerry Seymour]

But you're doing it at full speed against a partner who is defending 100%

Yes, that's one of the great things about Judo and BJJ workouts.