How appliable is aikido for self-defense?

[Red Sun]

I'd go and check out my local Aikido place, but i can't afford $130 for every 10 classes, $80 annual membership fee, and a further $11 annual fee to use their facility (...and i'd have to buy a uniform.)

I think i'll stick to $5 to beat the crap out of bags, pads, balls, and the occassional human.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'd go and check out my local Aikido place, but i can't afford $130 for every 10 classes, $80 annual membership fee, and a further $11 annual fee to use their facility (...and i'd have to buy a uniform.)

I think i'll stick to $5 to beat the crap out of bags, pads, balls, and the occassional human.

$13 a class isn't awful for the US, though it sounds steep compared to what I've heard folks in the UK mention. The cost of the uniform is negligible in the long term (some of my uniforms lasted more than 6 years), and the annual fees aren't much (though I'd rather just have those rolled into the monthly/periodic payments, instead). All that said, you do what you can afford. It's part of why I've kept my program where it is.

 

[Red Sun]

$13 a class isn't awful for the US, though it sounds steep compared to what I've heard folks in the UK mention. The cost of the uniform is negligible in the long term (some of my uniforms lasted more than 6 years), and the annual fees aren't much (though I'd rather just have those rolled into the monthly/periodic payments, instead). All that said, you do what you can afford. It's part of why I've kept my program where it is.

Yeah - $1500pa is more than i have in my bank account atm. I forgot to add, though - I was lamenting my inability to try aikido. I didn't mean to just complain about the price

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah - $1500pa is more than i have in my bank account atm. I forgot to add, though - I was lamenting my inability to try aikido. I didn't mean to just complain about the price

You have to pay it all up front? That is expensive.

And I can certainly understand the lamentation. I often lament not being able (whether due to time or money constraints) take up a new art.

 

[Jenna]

This is your expression of aikido and I would assume the way your teacher taught it to you. However there are other expressions and they are also legitimate. I would be hesitant to say " this is the way real aikido should be done" which is the impression I get from your statement.

True it is my expression of Aikido and as true to those original teachings of O'Sensei as I can make it, being as my practice is, unavoidably separated by time and by culture. There are almost infinite expressions of Aikido when by expression you mean how an individual work it yes. Yet it is a spectrum or scale that can at one end adhere closely to the philosophy of Aikido The Way of Harmony as designed by O'Sensei, or at the other end it can be a fairly destructive methodology.. Were I to forcefully utilise my kotegaeshi to wilfully, and intentionally destroy tendons in your wrist when you deign to put your hand on me in a dance club well you can say I use Aikido technique.. I have however not done Aikido as O'Sensei would have envisioned it.

As with any MA, there are styles of Aikido which deviate so significantly from the original teachings that they are Aikido by name and recognisable technique and but certainly not by philosophy. If your MA has a philosophy of -or a disregard for- harm to uke then it would be Aikido merely by nomenclature and technique.

Legitimate? I have no responsibility for apportioning legitimacy to any thing.. I am a practitioner not an arbiter of regulation.. I offer only opinion.. is your prerogative to disagree.

 

[hoshin1600]

I don't want to disagree with you,,but I have to. Unless you personally sat down and had this discussion with O-sensei than your premise on what aikido should be is mere conjecture.
Aikido evolved over time. The philosophy that you attribute to "be" aikido is the end result of a man's life of study and practice.
You can no more put your foot in a river and say " this is the river". The river has passed you by before the words escaped your mouth. The early years of aikido are far different than the aikido at the end of O-sensei's life. It is unfortunate that each of his students proclaim to have learnt the "real" aikido.
You cannot jump to the absolute. You must start from where you are. Ueshiba started on one end of the scale and progressed through the stages of philosophical self awareness. As a student I believe you have to go through the same journey and process. You start with the hard and evolve to the soft. What I see many aikidoka trying to do is jump to the end. You will not arrive at the same destination. You will find yourself in a self created illusion. Students will think they have arrived but it is a castle of sand.
If look at aikido as a process of human development rather than a destination and a fixed point than there is no "true" aikido, there is only where each student happens to be at this moment.

 

[Jenna]

I don't want to disagree with you,,but I have to. Unless you personally sat down and had this discussion with O-sensei than your premise on what aikido should be is mere conjecture.
Aikido evolved over time. The philosophy that you attribute to "be" aikido is the end result of a man's life of study and practice.
You can no more put your foot in a river and say " this is the river". The river has passed you by before the words escaped your mouth. The early years of aikido are far different than the aikido at the end of O-sensei's life. It is unfortunate that each of his students proclaim to have learnt the "real" aikido.
You cannot jump to the absolute. You must start from where you are. Ueshiba started on one end of the scale and progressed through the stages of philosophical self awareness. As a student I believe you have to go through the same journey and process. You start with the hard and evolve to the soft. What I see many aikidoka trying to do is jump to the end. You will not arrive at the same destination. You will find yourself in a self created illusion. Students will think they have arrived but it is a castle of sand.
If look at aikido as a process of human development rather than a destination and a fixed point than there is no "true" aikido, there is only where each student happens to be at this moment.

Well if you do not want to disagree then do not force your self to unless it is for the greater good of mankind So you have drifted off a little from your accusation that I am conferring illegitimacy upon some Aikido styles and but anyway I will respond to what you have written here..

I think you may be labouring under some misapprehensions in your subjective view of what is or is not Aikido.. First YES! there IS true Aikido.. Let me try to explain for you.. And this is not meant to impugn your knowledge or challenge rather to try to make this point clear so you -or anybody else- is not misunderstanding me.. ok so this does not concern what *I* class as Aikido.. yes? I am just practitioner you are correct I did not know O'Sensei also correct I am not that old! My old sensei back home did train he would have recounted for short time under O'Sensei at our honbu.. Still.. does not matter an iota what I class as any thing..

What O'Sensei did is to take a word, a term, already in existence.. Aikido is just a word ok? It is not his word.. was ALREADY a word prior to what is commonly regarded nowadays as the martial art Aikido.. and then form his art AROUND this word Ai-ki-do utilising what he had learned and modified from Takeda Sokaku in his formative days of DRAJJ.. What therefore you maybe are missing fundamentally is that what Aikido actually *IS* has less to do with the who or the when or the where -let alone what *I* decide.. and is specified by the very word Aikido.. Now I am not even slightly fluent in Japanese.. @Chris Parker is our go-to Nihongo translator and can enlighten.. Ai-ki-do as commonly transliterated from its ideograms is the way of Peace/Harmony of Spirit, essentially concerning Heaven and Earth harmonised and the idea of Budo as an expression of the love of God..

So.. therefore.. simply put -and as I have already stated- if your Aikido would intentionally harm your opponent or condone in any way harm to uke then NO, it is not Aikido.. does not matter a toss what Jenna online think of it.. whether it may look like Aikido or feel like Aikido upon the body.. if it is not Ai-Ki-Do the way of Harmony (Chris please help me out with more accurate translations if there are any) then it is NOT Aikido.. So.. is what you practice still legitimate? I do not know.. you tell me as it was you who originated the comment about legitimacy.

Like I can assemble any selection of throws and say it is Judo.. It look like Judo it perform like judo.. It is just not Kano Judo.. Legitimate? I do not know.. who is adjudicating??

I can buy a pattern manifold for a 3.2 air-cooled and but it is not a Porsche part.. how I feel about that is subjective.. it is legitimate part?? it is not legitimate part?? depend on what you feel..

This is more clear??

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't want to disagree with you,,but I have to. Unless you personally sat down and had this discussion with O-sensei than your premise on what aikido should be is mere conjecture.
Aikido evolved over time. The philosophy that you attribute to "be" aikido is the end result of a man's life of study and practice.
You can no more put your foot in a river and say " this is the river". The river has passed you by before the words escaped your mouth. The early years of aikido are far different than the aikido at the end of O-sensei's life. It is unfortunate that each of his students proclaim to have learnt the "real" aikido.
You cannot jump to the absolute. You must start from where you are. Ueshiba started on one end of the scale and progressed through the stages of philosophical self awareness. As a student I believe you have to go through the same journey and process. You start with the hard and evolve to the soft. What I see many aikidoka trying to do is jump to the end. You will not arrive at the same destination. You will find yourself in a self created illusion. Students will think they have arrived but it is a castle of sand.
If look at aikido as a process of human development rather than a destination and a fixed point than there is no "true" aikido, there is only where each student happens to be at this moment.

"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of men of old. Seek, instead, what they sought." (I've forgotten the attribution for this quote.)

This is essentially what you are saying, I think, and it is a good point. We must all walk that path. If someone chooses to follow Ueshiba's philosophical path, they should do so by seeking clarity (which appears to have been his starting point). The technique he used (and taught, when he was teaching) late in life is the same technique as early in life, but filtered through his newfound philosophy. There are many valid paths within his Aikido. I believe it is entirely valid to pursue one's own philosophy with the techniques. That is, after all, what Ueshiba did, himself.

(Note: I am not of Ueshiba's Aikido, but have made a study of it - technique, history, and philosophy - because it is closely related to my primary art.)

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well if you do not want to disagree then do not force your self to unless it is for the greater good of mankind So you have drifted off a little from your accusation that I am conferring illegitimacy upon some Aikido styles and but anyway I will respond to what you have written here..

I think you may be labouring under some misapprehensions in your subjective view of what is or is not Aikido.. First YES! there IS true Aikido.. Let me try to explain for you.. And this is not meant to impugn your knowledge or challenge rather to try to make this point clear so you -or anybody else- is not misunderstanding me.. ok so this does not concern what *I* class as Aikido.. yes? I am just practitioner you are correct I did not know O'Sensei also correct I am not that old! My old sensei back home did train he would have recounted for short time under O'Sensei at our honbu.. Still.. does not matter an iota what I class as any thing..

What O'Sensei did is to take a word, a term, already in existence.. Aikido is just a word ok? It is not his word.. was ALREADY a word prior to what is commonly regarded nowadays as the martial art Aikido.. and then form his art AROUND this word Ai-ki-do utilising what he had learned and modified from Takeda Sokaku in his formative days of DRAJJ.. What therefore you maybe are missing fundamentally is that what Aikido actually *IS* has less to do with the who or the when or the where -let alone what *I* decide.. and is specified by the very word Aikido.. Now I am not even slightly fluent in Japanese.. @Chris Parker is our go-to Nihongo translator and can enlighten.. Ai-ki-do as commonly transliterated from its ideograms is the way of Peace/Harmony of Spirit, essentially concerning Heaven and Earth harmonised and the idea of Budo as an expression of the love of God..

So.. therefore.. simply put -and as I have already stated- if your Aikido would intentionally harm your opponent or condone in any way harm to uke then NO, it is not Aikido.. does not matter a toss what Jenna online think of it.. whether it may look like Aikido or feel like Aikido upon the body.. if it is not Ai-Ki-Do the way of Harmony (Chris please help me out with more accurate translations if there are any) then it is NOT Aikido.. So.. is what you practice still legitimate? I do not know.. you tell me as it was you who originated the comment about legitimacy.

Like I can assemble any selection of throws and say it is Judo.. It look like Judo it perform like judo.. It is just not Kano Judo.. Legitimate? I do not know.. who is adjudicating??

I can buy a pattern manifold for a 3.2 air-cooled and but it is not a Porsche part.. how I feel about that is subjective.. it is legitimate part?? it is not legitimate part?? depend on what you feel..

This is more clear??

I would point out that, like much in Japanese, the ideograms are not directly translatable to English. It has been explained to me that Japanese is a more conceptual language than English. The term Aikido, as coined by the Dai Nippon Butokkukai, was apparently intended to carry the same meaning as the "aiki" in "aikijujutsu". Ueshiba chose, based upon his exposure to Omoto, I believe, a softer interpretation of the term, which softened even more as he aged. The idea of peace is not necessarily inherent in the term, though it is also not improper to read it

 

[ST1Doppelganger]

I would point out that, like much in Japanese, the ideograms are not directly translatable to English. It has been explained to me that Japanese is a more conceptual language than English. The term Aikido, as coined by the Dai Nippon Butokkukai, was apparently intended to carry the same meaning as the "aiki" in "aikijujutsu". Ueshiba chose, based upon his exposure to Omoto, I believe, a softer interpretation of the term, which softened even more as he aged. The idea of peace is not necessarily inherent in the term, though it is also not improper to read it

Exactly. I had a Sensei at a seminar that does the Japanese calligraphy explain how the characters that make aikido can read with different interpretations.

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[ST1Doppelganger]

I think I agree mostly with what you are saying, except you say..



I think if your Aikido is nought except a bunch of techniques then it is superficially Aikido. If you do not apprehend the deeper meanings of Aikido as the Way of Harmony then not only are you negating the core of Ueshiba teachings, and but you are also missing many of the subtleties of technique and you techniques are mere stand-alone defensive or offensive manoeuvres..

Aikido "on the street" to use the parlance on the internet is NOT as internet people imagine it is about being badass and knowing how to efficiently neutralise opposition! Aikido in REALITY is about harmonising with others, whether that be how to soften day-to-day disagreements, whether it be blending with physically or mentally stressful situations or actually defending oneself in a physical capacity.. Aikido is NOT brutal. Of course you can MAKE it brutal.. then again, you can make a spoon brutal if you grind the edge.. it is not designed that way though! READ more Ueshiba and it make more sense.. to train Aikido to proficiency on the mats alone is nothing more than a beginning.

If THIS is not how your Aikido looks in reality then it is not Aikido you are doing.. it is possibly more akin to Daito Ryu which came before.. and even DR is not just fighting.. Quote from their site..

"Daito-ryu goes beyond mere self-defense, offering the way to temper one's body and spirit, with the aim of developing personal character and contributing to the greater social good"

In Aikido you must NOT be in the common mindset of fighting. That is superficial, that is how the novice do their Aiki.. There is more to it. Jx

I agree with what your saying here as well and will admit I find it hard for myself not to fall in to pushing the harmony practices out of aikido.

From the stories I've heared from a few different Sensei's and from what I've read it sounds like old school aikido was brutal then as O Sensei aged he started to bring in his religious views that really softened the art up.

I have no issues with people training Aikido with what ever goal they have in mind but will say the aiki ki blasters have taken this art and made it a laughable art amongst the ma community. This has happened with the CMA Internal arts as well. In my opinion it is just plain sad that there's a community of people wrongly representing these martial arts which has defamed the whole aiki or CMA Internal arts community.

I will say I do partially believe in Ki/Qi concepts but don't believe you will ever be able to blast or control someone with this concept.

I've also played with other aikido people from different schools that would not be able to lock or throw me if I resisted so is this doing them justice that they think what they have learned will actually be applicable against an opponent in the street?

Everyone has the rite to train their art the way they want to but it saddens me that a portion of the aikido community can hurt the reputation of aikido greatly by posting insane videos on YouTube which then finds it way to threads that bash aikido.

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[Jenna]

I would point out that, like much in Japanese, the ideograms are not directly translatable to English. It has been explained to me that Japanese is a more conceptual language than English. The term Aikido, as coined by the Dai Nippon Butokkukai, was apparently intended to carry the same meaning as the "aiki" in "aikijujutsu". Ueshiba chose, based upon his exposure to Omoto, I believe, a softer interpretation of the term, which softened even more as he aged. The idea of peace is not necessarily inherent in the term, though it is also not improper to read it

I like how you have it explained to you that Japanese is -to non-fluent at least- a conceptual language. That is a succinct way to see it..

While Ai-ki has many independent connotations of its own, Ai-Ki-Do with particular reference to the martial art which take its name from that term is well enough specified to make certain inferences, yes? no?

You suggest peace is not necessarily inherent in the term.. I understand that you might.. I suggest it might be inferred from our specification of Aikido the martial art..

1. Aikido is a way of harmony with the universal energy or however one chooses to define Ki -and that is a protracted argument perhaps..

So if peace is not as you suggest inherent in Ai-ki-do then it ought to be demonstrably possible to follow such a way of harmony of any universal spirit by a means of aggression or destruction or a way other than non-violently and through peace??

2. Morehei Ueshiba embraced peace. Latterly -and as part of his design for his Aikido- if not formerly. This is plain from any number of his oral recorded teachings and calligraphy. Further, Ueshiba is the designer of the essence of a martial art named Aikido from which, I would suggest, the great majority of modern Aikido practitioners trace their lineage.

So if peace is not, as you say, inherent in Aikido as practiced by majority Aikidoka then you would recommend that what was disseminated by Ueshiba ought to be ignored in ones daily practice and ones daily life?

Respectfully if peace is not as you say inherent in Aikido then how is the central meta- and NON-physical core of Aikido to be interpreted and practiced? Or ought it to be ignored also or sidelined?

As example, Ueshiba said, "A mind to serve for the peace of all peoples of the world is needed in Aikido, and not the mind of one who practices only to be strong and conquer an opponent. Therefore to compete in techniques, winning or losing is not true Budo. True Budo knows no defeat. Never defeated means never fighting."

Understandably perhaps, you have little time for these things if you are NGA.. Then again, non-adoption or actual eschewing of non-physical Aikido is certainly not exclusively NGA.. Personally I believe many sensei are embarrassed to touch it.. certainly in my own ambit it was the majority of them.. This alas means Aikido as ANY kind of a Way is almost alien to practice.. It become merely muscular repetition of technique..

Of course ultimately, Aikido is just a word. If any person choose to practice a martial art that is named Aikido and it teach to them brutal limb destruction severally and simultaneously without any deference to any variously translated "Way" or recourse to any variously translated "path of Harmonisation of universal spirit" or "bringing together", then heh I am certainly not their mother to scold them for it..

 

[drop bear]

I'd go and check out my local Aikido place, but i can't afford $130 for every 10 classes, $80 annual membership fee, and a further $11 annual fee to use their facility (...and i'd have to buy a uniform.)

I think i'll stick to $5 to beat the crap out of bags, pads, balls, and the occassional human.

Maybe they are teaching you how not to get robbed in a really ironic way.

 

[hoshin1600]

Aikido is the art of peace, this is plain and simple. To suggest otherwise is incorrect

would aikido then be correctly described as a non violent peaceful endeavor?

Aikido in REALITY is about harmonising with others, whether that be how to soften day-to-day disagreements, whether it be blending with physically or mentally stressful situations..........

could it then be described as art for the pacifist?
PACIFISM
"A pacifist is a person who is opposed to war and violence. Pacifists believe that we should not kill or harm other people. "

.....or actually defending oneself in a physical capacity..

how do you use aikido to physically defend yourself if you are a pacifist? how do you use aikido in a physical way without hurting someone? this seems to be a major contradiction. to believe that you can use a kotegashi or iriminage on someone trying to rape or kill you and you will not injure them in some way is naive at best.
if aikido is truly a non violent philosophy then it would be incorrect to call it a martial art.
the term martial itself implies " of ,relating to,or suited for war or warrior"
Definition of MARTIAL

if we assume this to be self evident then back to the OP's post

I think aikido looks pretty interesting but I don't know if it's good for self-defense.

then aikido is not good for self defense and at its core is in contradiction and polar opposite of using a physical means to defend yourself.

i guess we can just put our hands in the air and make the bad guys fall down.

 

[ST1Doppelganger]

.

i guess we can just put our hands in the air and make the bad guys fall down.

I really dislike you for posting this video Hoshin LOL.

I personally prefer the tenshin method of aikido or the aikido that has the roots of pre world war aikido since they are the harder styles of aikido. This is the stuff that's not my cup of tea and to top it off its O Sensei doing it. But I guess everyone has the rite to practice the art the way they want to.

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[pinklady6000]

As a female wrestler I would bounce all you aikido men on your heads!

 

[hoshin1600]

I really dislike you for posting this video Hoshin LOL.

done for a reason sorry.

i just think many people drink the cool aid and join the club of aikido without questioning it and taking everything as a gospel. i am not trying to un-validate it rather i am questioning for the sake of clarity. i feel if we truly understand aikido in its entirety then we may come away with a better perspective and actually validate the art and its philosophy. the fact that O-sensei has become this mythical figure and aikido has taken on an air of kum ba yah lets all just get along and if that bully picks on you then try to reason with him and find his better nature, this clouds the subject and makes rational thought and discussion impossible.
if students want to be pacifists and train in soft aikido as an art from thats fine it doesnt bother me. but if you then turn and say "but im also learning to defend myself because aikido is a martial art" then i think that is being disingenuous and a contradiction.

 

[ST1Doppelganger]

As a female wrestler I would bounce all you aikido men on your heads!

LOL i can see your going to go real far in this martial arts community.

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[Red Sun]

i guess we can just put our hands in the air and make the bad guys fall down.

I'm only doing this because i'm an impressionable young lady who was reminded of these by hoshin:

Memorable quotes: Yukiyoshi Takamura on pacifism

 

[ST1Doppelganger]

done for a reason sorry.

i just think many people drink the cool aid and join the club of aikido without questioning it and taking everything as a gospel. i am not trying to un-validate it rather i am questioning for the sake of clarity. i feel if we truly understand aikido in its entirety then we may come away with a better perspective and actually validate the art and its philosophy. the fact that O-sensei has become this mythical figure and aikido has taken on an air of kum ba yah lets all just get along and if that bully picks on you then try to reason with him and find his better nature, this clouds the subject and makes rational thought and discussion impossible.
if students want to be pacifists and train in soft aikido as an art from thats fine it doesnt bother me. but if you then turn and say "but im also learning to defend myself because aikido is a martial art" then i think that is being disingenuous and a contradiction.

I agree which is why I posted my earlier posts. Like I said Ive trained with other schools students that thought they could lock or throw and couldn't apply it on me. One even asked why I didn't fall down and I was like well you didn't apply the lock proper so I'm just giving you good realistic feedback.

Unfortunately O Sensei got very esoteric in his later years which made aikido change as a martial arts. Hence why I enjoy the aikido styles that has the roots of pre war Sensei's or tenshin method of aikido because it seems like they are the arts that can handle an assailant allot more effectively in a real life situation.

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