How appliable is aikido for self-defense?

[Gerry Seymour]

Depends on the floor a bit as well. You train in a old building with a wooden floor you get more give than a modern building that has a slab.

The best would be a sprung floor like gymnastics.

I'd think the gymnastics floor would have too much give for training - it would alter the way you move under load. I've never been on one, so I'm just going on what I can see when watching gymnastics. The less-sprung floors sometimes installed for aerobics studios are great, though. You can't feel the give in them until you are thrown and the floor just isn't as hard as it ought to be. Pairing a decent firm mat with that seems ideal: firm footing and good absorption to keep wear and tear on the body to a minimum.

 

[Steve]

Depends on the floor a bit as well. You train in a old building with a wooden floor you get more give than a modern building that has a slab.

The best would be a sprung floor like gymnastics.

This was wrestling mats over concrete. Never trained on a spring floor. Sounds fancy.

 

[drop bear]

This was wrestling mats over concrete. Never trained on a spring floor. Sounds fancy.

It is very fancy.

They also have foam pits. Which makes double legs more fun than should be allowed.

 

[Steve]

Apparently I've never been on a wrestling mat like that one. It sounds doubleplus ungood.

There's a reason Wrestlers wear shoes, I think.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There's a reason Wrestlers wear shoes, I think.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking as I typed that. At the very least, the shoes are the reason the mats aren't designed not to break toes.

 

[Jenna]

I think that application requires a broader experience than just gaining the knowledge or ability to perform a task.

Let's see if I can come up with some good examples...

Okay, programming. Or language learning, even. Yeah - let's use learning a foreign language as an example.

Very few people, even after taking years of classes, are able to speak a foreign language. Actually, I would contend that noone can speak a foreign language, but that sentence is misleading without further explanation. More on that later.

It seems that people think that some day, after having mastered all of the content in their textbooks, they will magically be able to speak a foreign language. Usually, they wait until this theoretical moment to use and practice the language outside of the confines of classes and textbooks, because when they hear/read/try to speak it in the real world, it is still much to difficult for them to understand; there's too much adversity.

But, there's a problem with this approach. Textbooks and classes can be helpful for teaching you the fundamental skills; for giving you the basic knowledge and understanding -- a framework, if you will. But you absolutely have to expand on that knowledge and learn to utilize that framework in the adversity of the real world to make it functional. Language encompasses every aspect of human experience; every emotion, every thought, every thing and every action or condition that we might experience in life. That's far more than anyone could ever pack into any class or textbook, and it's something that you can only gain from using the language in the real world. There's lots of adversity to overcome at first. You won't have the words or the natural expressions to express yourself and your ideas, and you will struggle letting your personality come through. You will struggle using the language naturally, and adapting to any conversation or contect. This is because you have not yet made the language yours; it's still foreign to you. It's still a foreign language; one that you have knowledge of, and even competency in; you might even ace a grammar test, but you have not yet made the language your own. To do that, you have to struggle and use it, and use it, and use it in all of the diverse and adverse situations that you have never experienced before. You have to experience every facet of life once again through and in that new language, so that it becomes as intimate and familiar as your first language. It has to cease to become a foreign language, and become a part of you.

The same is true of martial arts which might be useful in self defense. The demands of self defense in the real world go far beyond what one might practice in the dojo. Traditional practice in the dojo does impart skill and understanding which may be of some applicable use in the real world, but it will be awkward and clumsy and unreliable until you have honed it through a diverse array of real world experience and adversity, or at least come close in your training to replicating and addressing these things. Your average person speaks a very different "language" physically than your fellow aikidoka does, and will not respond or act like your training partners; it's kind of like bringing your textbook Japanese to Japan, only to find that people don't quite speak like that in the real world, and having to adapt. If you've never experienced it before, it will take quite a bit of time to familiarize yourself with and adapt, but your formal knowledge base will serve you well in doing so.

Forgive me, I do not quite get the point you are making.. you are saying that to demonstrate a defensive technique will work in reality outside of the dojo, it must be tried in reality outside of the dojo? Well, yes, I think that is surely a given. I may be missing some other subtleties within your response.. forgive me if so

 

[Hanzou]

Does aikido also offer solutions for ground fighting?

Nope. I've trained with many former Aikidoka and they're like fish out of water once their backs hit the mat.

Also, how hard is aikido on the body? Are you likely to hurt yourself when you're being thrown over
someone's shoulder? Since I'm rather fragile I don't know if I could even withstand such a training.

There's some very soft Aikido out there. I've seen very old people doing Aikido in a very soft and slow manner as to not hurt themselves. If you're worried about getting hurt, there should be a school for you.

I think aikido looks pretty interesting but I don't know if it's good for self-defense.

I personally wouldn't learn it for self defense, but your mileage may vary. Give it a lesson or two and decide if its right for you.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Nope. I've trained with many former Aikidoka and they're like fish out of water once their backs hit the mat.

That depends upon the Aikido. I'm not going to be as formidable as someone who has the same amount of training in BJJ - in my prime, probably competent to roll with a blue belt and to make a purple belt work a bit. Enough, though, to help with most non-BJJ-trained aggressors.

I personally wouldn't learn it for self defense, but your mileage may vary. Give it a lesson or two and decide if its right for you.

This depends upon the school, and perhaps, the "aikido", as well. I've seen some of what I'd consider the "flowy" aikido styles taught with a good focus on defense (and realistic attacks). And there are styles that are more combative to start with. And that's only within Ueshiba's Aikido. In the other Aikido arts, there's generally more of a focus on realistic attack and defense (depending upon the school and instructor, of course). I'd say the weakest point in the Aikido arts is the attacks - students get into patterns of offering attacks as they would for a new-ish student, and develop bad habits.

 

[Hanzou]

That depends upon the Aikido. I'm not going to be as formidable as someone who has the same amount of training in BJJ - in my prime, probably competent to roll with a blue belt and to make a purple belt work a bit. Enough, though, to help with most non-BJJ-trained aggressors.

A mid-range blue belt in Bjj has roughly the same amount of mat time as a black belt in Aikido. In some cases more due to the set up of Bjj training times in a typical gym.

As for making a Bjj blue belt or purple belt "work a bit" using Aikido.... That's something I would pay to see given that Aikidoka tend to shy away from showing off their skills outside of demonstrations.

This depends upon the school, and perhaps, the "aikido", as well. I've seen some of what I'd consider the "flowy" aikido styles taught with a good focus on defense (and realistic attacks). And there are styles that are more combative to start with. And that's only within Ueshiba's Aikido. In the other Aikido arts, there's generally more of a focus on realistic attack and defense (depending upon the school and instructor, of course). I'd say the weakest point in the Aikido arts is the attacks - students get into patterns of offering attacks as they would for a new-ish student, and develop bad habits.

Yeah, I'm aware of that. You're right, it definitely depends on the school.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

A mid-range blue belt in Bjj has roughly the same amount of mat time as a black belt in Aikido. In some cases more due to the set up of Bjj training times in a typical gym.

As for making a Bjj blue belt or purple belt "work a bit" using Aikido.... That's something I would pay to see given that Aikidoka tend to shy away from showing off their skills outside of demonstrations.

I'm aware of the level of training in BJJ. At the time, I'd have been training significantly longer than the average BJJ blue (meaning he'd get to that level more quickly on ground work). I also draw a bit on my Judo groundwork, though I didn't spend enough time on that for it to do more than inform what I learned since.

As for making a purple belt "work a bit", I rolled with some folks back then (both BJJ and MMA folks) and while I was not the equal of folks at that level (BJJ purple equivalent), I made them work more than I expected, and occasionally even managed to get a submission of my own. It was rare, though, and probably as much a result of my athleticism as my technique.

My point is simply that the techniques and movement inherent in aiki arts can be translated to the ground. It's not a perfect translation (there's a reason BJJ uses the movements it does) and won't compete with BJJ, but it's sufficient for basic ground competency for self-defense, if practiced enough.

All this talk has me thinking it's time to get to a friend's school again. He teaches Aikido and BJJ (he might be purple by now) to roll with some of his students. I won't be nearly as good on the ground as I was 15 years ago, but it's time to find out where I am and brush up the worst bits.

 

[drop bear]

I'm aware of the level of training in BJJ. At the time, I'd have been training significantly longer than the average BJJ blue (meaning he'd get to that level more quickly on ground work). I also draw a bit on my Judo groundwork, though I didn't spend enough time on that for it to do more than inform what I learned since.

As for making a purple belt "work a bit", I rolled with some folks back then (both BJJ and MMA folks) and while I was not the equal of folks at that level (BJJ purple equivalent), I made them work more than I expected, and occasionally even managed to get a submission of my own. It was rare, though, and probably as much a result of my athleticism as my technique.

My point is simply that the techniques and movement inherent in aiki arts can be translated to the ground. It's not a perfect translation (there's a reason BJJ uses the movements it does) and won't compete with BJJ, but it's sufficient for basic ground competency for self-defense, if practiced enough.

All this talk has me thinking it's time to get to a friend's school again. He teaches Aikido and BJJ (he might be purple by now) to roll with some of his students. I won't be nearly as good on the ground as I was 15 years ago, but it's time to find out where I am and brush up the worst bits.

Provided you get out and risk loss by training with these other guys. You will have something you can use.

If you don't. You will have bugger all. Doesn't matter how long you train.

 

[cloud dancing]

dEAR Human being---Aikido is KILLING ART. Deadly with3 months study ,you will be able to throw and break arms wrists and dislocate shoulders , all in one move. Your strength will amazingly increase.Please ignore the naysayers. Practise soft use HARD. there will always be criticism,even if you are a God/as Lord shiva was.One day Shiva and his wife Parvati wanted simply to walk with Shiva's bull Nandin.When both walked -OMG stupid. you should both ride.Next they is evil both riding that poor bull .so Shiva walked and his queen/Wife walked.Look at him-no respect for his wife.so he walked and parvati rode.LOOK AT HIS WIFE no respect for her husband the king.
Parvati said to her husband the King LORD SHIVA --"We wanted simply to go for a walk.Whatever we do people criticize us.Both ride=Bad.i ride= bad.YOU RIDE =BAD.let us just enjoy and ignore all who insult us and criticize us. so they did.
When a person is thrown = can break neck.arm shoulder-serious damage.Enjoy as Aiki is a beautiful wonderous art soft becomes hard.Just enjoy and ignore all who say stupid,idiot moron--ignore them and enjoy one truly wondrous art
When LIGHT SHINES== darkness leaves.My Master is PREM lRAWAT with dvs on youtube-FREE. Live YOUR LIFE so that you enjoy feel happy and listen to yourHEART.

 

[Jenna]

dEAR Human being---Aikido is KILLING ART. Deadly with3 months study ,you will be able to throw and break arms wrists and dislocate shoulders , all in one move. Your strength will amazingly increase.Please ignore the naysayers. Practise soft use HARD. there will always be criticism,even if you are a God/as Lord shiva was.One day Shiva and his wife Parvati wanted simply to walk with Shiva's bull Nandin.When both walked -OMG stupid. you should both ride.Next they is evil both riding that poor bull .so Shiva walked and his queen/Wife walked.Look at him-no respect for his wife.so he walked and parvati rode.LOOK AT HIS WIFE no respect for her husband the king.
Parvati said to her husband the King LORD SHIVA --"We wanted simply to go for a walk.Whatever we do people criticize us.Both ride=Bad.i ride= bad.YOU RIDE =BAD.let us just enjoy and ignore all who insult us and criticize us. so they did.
When a person is thrown = can break neck.arm shoulder-serious damage.Enjoy as Aiki is a beautiful wonderous art soft becomes hard.Just enjoy and ignore all who say stupid,idiot moron--ignore them and enjoy one truly wondrous art
When LIGHT SHINES== darkness leaves.My Master is PREM lRAWAT with dvs on youtube-FREE. Live YOUR LIFE so that you enjoy feel happy and listen to yourHEART.

Hey.. Aikido is NOT a killing art.. how do you come by this opinion?? Ueshiba taught martial arts at the time he was using Daito Ryu to the military and but after the war he reconciled his views on killing and his ideas coalesced into what became Aikido.. Aikido is the art of peace, this is plain and simple. To suggest otherwise is incorrect.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

dEAR Human being---Aikido is KILLING ART. Deadly with3 months study ,you will be able to throw and break arms wrists and dislocate shoulders , all in one move. Your strength will amazingly increase.Please ignore the naysayers. Practise soft use HARD. there will always be criticism,even if you are a God/as Lord shiva was.One day Shiva and his wife Parvati wanted simply to walk with Shiva's bull Nandin.When both walked -OMG stupid. you should both ride.Next they is evil both riding that poor bull .so Shiva walked and his queen/Wife walked.Look at him-no respect for his wife.so he walked and parvati rode.LOOK AT HIS WIFE no respect for her husband the king.
Parvati said to her husband the King LORD SHIVA --"We wanted simply to go for a walk.Whatever we do people criticize us.Both ride=Bad.i ride= bad.YOU RIDE =BAD.let us just enjoy and ignore all who insult us and criticize us. so they did.
When a person is thrown = can break neck.arm shoulder-serious damage.Enjoy as Aiki is a beautiful wonderous art soft becomes hard.Just enjoy and ignore all who say stupid,idiot moron--ignore them and enjoy one truly wondrous art
When LIGHT SHINES== darkness leaves.My Master is PREM lRAWAT with dvs on youtube-FREE. Live YOUR LIFE so that you enjoy feel happy and listen to yourHEART.

Um...no. Just no.

 

[Steve]

That depends upon the Aikido. I'm not going to be as formidable as someone who has the same amount of training in BJJ - in my prime, probably competent to roll with a blue belt and to make a purple belt work a bit. Enough, though, to help with most non-BJJ-trained aggressors.



This depends upon the school, and perhaps, the "aikido", as well. I've seen some of what I'd consider the "flowy" aikido styles taught with a good focus on defense (and realistic attacks). And there are styles that are more combative to start with. And that's only within Ueshiba's Aikido. In the other Aikido arts, there's generally more of a focus on realistic attack and defense (depending upon the school and instructor, of course). I'd say the weakest point in the Aikido arts is the attacks - students get into patterns of offering attacks as they would for a new-ish student, and develop bad habits.

Aren't you also a judoka? Is your comfort level on the ground a function of aikido, or do you think your judo experience was relevant?

 

[Tez3]

dEAR Human being---Aikido is KILLING ART. Deadly with3 months study ,you will be able to throw and break arms wrists and dislocate shoulders , all in one move. Your strength will amazingly increase.Please ignore the naysayers. Practise soft use HARD. there will always be criticism,even if you are a God/as Lord shiva was.One day Shiva and his wife Parvati wanted simply to walk with Shiva's bull Nandin.When both walked -OMG stupid. you should both ride.Next they is evil both riding that poor bull .so Shiva walked and his queen/Wife walked.Look at him-no respect for his wife.so he walked and parvati rode.LOOK AT HIS WIFE no respect for her husband the king.
Parvati said to her husband the King LORD SHIVA --"We wanted simply to go for a walk.Whatever we do people criticize us.Both ride=Bad.i ride= bad.YOU RIDE =BAD.let us just enjoy and ignore all who insult us and criticize us. so they did.
When a person is thrown = can break neck.arm shoulder-serious damage.Enjoy as Aiki is a beautiful wonderous art soft becomes hard.Just enjoy and ignore all who say stupid,idiot moron--ignore them and enjoy one truly wondrous art
When LIGHT SHINES== darkness leaves.My Master is PREM lRAWAT with dvs on youtube-FREE. Live YOUR LIFE so that you enjoy feel happy and listen to yourHEART.

Well, that's different.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Aren't you also a judoka? Is your comfort level on the ground a function of aikido, or do you think your judo experience was relevant?

The Judo experience is definitely relevant. I came into aikido better equipped for falls (so unafraid of them), with some understanding of body mechanics, with some experience of resistance from a partner, etc. I think the Judo has as much influence as my 11 years of soccer (as a goalie, so I had good balance and was unafraid of bodies coming at me).

That said, in NGA we do train some groundwork. It's rudimentary in my experience in the mainline of the art (to the extent that at least one instructor started studying and teaching GJJ alongside it), and it's left to the student to develop any proficiency. I'm putting more emphasis on it in Shojin-ryu.

 

[ST1Doppelganger]

Even though original post sounds like a troll post I will add my opinion on if aikido is applicable.

Aikido isn't really a style meant for tournaments it's more of a form of exercise or self defense depending on how you train.

First off there's a few variables in making aikido applicable. These variables are the style of aikido, the Sensei that's teaching the aikido, the individual learning aikido amongst many more but those would be the main ones in my opinion.

If your training in an aikido that teaches it more as a form of exercise along with being a spiritual journey then you probably won't be able to apply it in real life.

If your at a sci-fi aikido school that ki blasts well that's your cup of tea and I hope you don't try to apply it in a self defense situation.

If your lucky enough to find an aikido Sensei that teaches it as a martial art then yes you can use it as a form of self defense.

About how long does it take to be able to apply aikido in a street situation is more about how quick you personally learn and understand the concepts & applications.

Aikido can be gentle or brutal so it depends on how your training. My only two injuries I've acquired so far have been dislocated fingers from randori and my back got thrown out of whack from when a newer student let go of me in mid kotegaeshi lock where I couldn't breakfall correctly landing flat on my upper back.





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[Jenna]

I think I agree mostly with what you are saying, except you say..

If your training in an aikido that teaches it more as a form of exercise along with being a spiritual journey then you probably won't be able to apply it in real life.

I think if your Aikido is nought except a bunch of techniques then it is superficially Aikido. If you do not apprehend the deeper meanings of Aikido as the Way of Harmony then not only are you negating the core of Ueshiba teachings, and but you are also missing many of the subtleties of technique and you techniques are mere stand-alone defensive or offensive manoeuvres..

Aikido "on the street" to use the parlance on the internet is NOT as internet people imagine it is about being badass and knowing how to efficiently neutralise opposition! Aikido in REALITY is about harmonising with others, whether that be how to soften day-to-day disagreements, whether it be blending with physically or mentally stressful situations or actually defending oneself in a physical capacity.. Aikido is NOT brutal. Of course you can MAKE it brutal.. then again, you can make a spoon brutal if you grind the edge.. it is not designed that way though! READ more Ueshiba and it make more sense.. to train Aikido to proficiency on the mats alone is nothing more than a beginning.

If THIS is not how your Aikido looks in reality then it is not Aikido you are doing.. it is possibly more akin to Daito Ryu which came before.. and even DR is not just fighting.. Quote from their site..

"Daito-ryu goes beyond mere self-defense, offering the way to temper one's body and spirit, with the aim of developing personal character and contributing to the greater social good"

In Aikido you must NOT be in the common mindset of fighting. That is superficial, that is how the novice do their Aiki.. There is more to it. Jx

 

[hoshin1600]

I think I agree mostly with what you are saying, except you say..



I think if your Aikido is nought except a bunch of techniques then it is superficially Aikido. If you do not apprehend the deeper meanings of Aikido as the Way of Harmony then not only are you negating the core of Ueshiba teachings, and but you are also missing many of the subtleties of technique and you techniques are mere stand-alone defensive or offensive manoeuvres..

Aikido "on the street" to use the parlance on the internet is NOT as internet people imagine it is about being badass and knowing how to efficiently neutralise opposition! Aikido in REALITY is about harmonising with others, whether that be how to soften day-to-day disagreements, whether it be blending with physically or mentally stressful situations or actually defending oneself in a physical capacity.. Aikido is NOT brutal. Of course you can MAKE it brutal.. then again, you can make a spoon brutal if you grind the edge.. it is not designed that way though! READ more Ueshiba and it make more sense.. to train Aikido to proficiency on the mats alone is nothing more than a beginning.

If THIS is not how your Aikido looks in reality then it is not Aikido you are doing.. it is possibly more akin to Daito Ryu which came before.. and even DR is not just fighting.. Quote from their site..

"Daito-ryu goes beyond mere self-defense, offering the way to temper one's body and spirit, with the aim of developing personal character and contributing to the greater social good"

In Aikido you must NOT be in the common mindset of fighting. That is superficial, that is how the novice do their Aiki.. There is more to it. Jx

This is your expression of aikido and I would assume the way your teacher taught it to you. However there are other expressions and they are also legitimate. I would be hesitant to say " this is the way real aikido should be done" which is the impression I get from your statement.